No Adam = no Original Sin - right?

[Muffled]

MUFFLED ~ where did you go? A month a go I asked which archaeologist belived that Adam and Eve were created about 5000BCE? Would you name a few?? arlan

I get around to answering eventually. Part of it was a loss of internet for a while. I am not an archeologist nor am I well read up on it. The Best I can tell you aboaut is what I learned in my Western Civilization class in College. The book for that class pinned the beginning of civilzation to 5000 BC in Mesopotamia. This coincides with the generational math which puts Adam and Eve at 5000 BC and the flood somehwere around 3000 BC.

 

[Arlanbb]

MUFFLED ~ I have been involved in archaeology for over 25 years and all archaeologist realize that people have lived on this earth for over 50,000 years. You are mixing the beginning of Adam/Eve, the human race acording to the bible, with the beginning of civilzation. These are two different subjects. Beginning of "civilization" has nothing to do with the first people on earth. When the college class talks about "civilization" it is talking about an advance state of human society, in which a high level of art, science, religion and government has been reach.

I don't know where your "generalized math" came from - is that something like 2 X 2 can = 4 but 3 or 5 is also OK. According to most biblical historians creation and Adam/Eve did the first sin about 4000BC and the biblical deluge about 2350BC. These are derived from reading Genesis only. The biblical historians have a big problem when they know that man, has lived and died, and has been on earth for over 50,000 years but original sin was to be only about 6000 years ago. arlan

 

[Muffled]

MUFFLED ~ I have been involved in archaeology for over 25 years and all archaeologist realize that people have lived on this earth for over 50,000 years. You are mixing the beginning of Adam/Eve, the human race acording to the bible, with the beginning of civilzation. These are two different subjects. Beginning of "civilization" has nothing to do with the first people on earth. When the college class talks about "civilization" it is talking about an advance state of human society, in which a high level of art, science, religion and government has been reach.

I don't know where your "generalized math" came from - is that something like 2 X 2 can = 4 but 3 or 5 is also OK. According to most biblical historians creation and Adam/Eve did the first sin about 4000BC and the biblical deluge about 2350BC. These are derived from reading Genesis only. The biblical historians have a big problem when they know that man, has lived and died, and has been on earth for over 50,000 years but original sin was to be only about 6000 years ago. arlan

Hominids have been around for that long but civilization began when man received a spirit and became a soul. Hominids aren't much more than a different kind of monkey.

 

[Arlanbb]

MUFFLED ~ I really don't know what "Hominids" are but I think you mean people. These people that lived and died up to 50,000 years ago were not a different form of monkey. These hominids have the same DNA as you and I. Monkies DNA are slighty different.
You say that at the beginning of civilization man received a spirit and became a soul. Where did you ever come up with that idea. That is not biblical. So you are telling me that millions of people that lived on earth before civilization begain had no spirit or a soul, correct? If that is true then they had to have been DEAD. Genesis says that God formed Adam [man] from dust and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life [spirit]and man lived.
You say the Genesis deluge happened around 3000BC, but Egypt was in it full glory in 3000BC. I think your math is way off. arlan

 

[Muffled]

MUFFLED ~ I really don't know what "Hominids" are but I think you mean people. These people that lived and died up to 50,000 years ago were not a different form of monkey. These hominids have the same DNA as you and I. Monkies DNA are slighty different.
You say that at the beginning of civilization man received a spirit and became a soul. Where did you ever come up with that idea. That is not biblical. So you are telling me that millions of people that lived on earth before civilization begain had no spirit or a soul, correct? If that is true then they had to have been DEAD. Genesis says that God formed Adam [man] from dust and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life [spirit]and man lived.
You say the Genesis deluge happened around 3000BC, but Egypt was in it full glory in 3000BC. I think your math is way off. arlan

People who have done spirit walking (leaving the body to travel) return to a living body.

Ge 2:7 And Jehovah God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Adam was a creation by God, not an already living hominid. That does not imply that the body couldn't have been made alive without the spirit, only that God breathed in life and the spirit at the same time. What did God do to make this hominid different from other hominids. It sems to me that His objective was to create an ability for the body to be melded with the spirit. This new creature became something different from other hominids, a soul.

 

[crystalonyx]

Hominids have been around for that long but civilization began when man received a spirit and became a soul. Hominids aren't much more than a different kind of monkey.

So those people received a soul, but their parents had none?

Interesting theory.

 

[Arlanbb]

MUFFLED ~ You didn't answer my question about your biblical deluge in 3000BC and Egypt in its full glory also in 3000BC? Did you know that human beings have lived in Egypt for the last 7,000 years. How is that possible if there was a biblical deluge only 5000 years ago?? arlan

 

[gnostic]

The Flood supposedly happened between 4100 or 4500 years, hence between 2100 and 2500 BCE.

The creation of the earth and Adam was supposed to happen less than 6000. I have calculated to be 5768 years (3760 BCE), using the Jewish calendar; 2008 is 5768 of the Jewish Era (JE).

There is 1656 years between that of Adam's creation to the Flood, which would make it 2104 BCE. In the Wikipedia, it says that the Flood happened in 2348 BCE (4356 years ago), which put the creation further back, to 4004 BCE (6012 years ago).

In any case, I am very doubtful that the Flood happened in 3000 BCE.

 

[Arlanbb]

GNOSTIC ~ I'm sure glade you used the word "SUPPOSEDLY" about the biblical deluge. The deluge was to have killed everyone on earth, correct? If that is true then please explain the following: the city of old Jericho was inhabbited from about 8,000BC down to about 300BC. The city of Megiddo had over 20 different sets of people that inhabited that site from 6000BC down to about 50BC. The Egyptian Culture was in existance from about 5000BC down to 400BC. The Ur civilization was in existance from about 4500BC down to 300BC. IF there had been a biblical deluge anywhere in these times of these cities and cultures they should have died out at the biblical deluge, but they never did. Why - because the story of the biblical deluge NEVER HAPPENED. arlan

 

[gnostic]

GNOSTIC ~ I'm sure glade you used the word "SUPPOSEDLY" about the biblical deluge.

Why - because the story of the biblical deluge NEVER HAPPENED. arlan

Sorry, Arlanbb, but I don't think you understand the word "supposedly". I think you should look it up first.

"Supposed" means held as an opinion; belief, but a mistaken belief. Hence it is only alleged belief. But this belief is not mine.

Hence, I don't believe in the Bible's Deluge. When I gave the dates, it is "supposed" dates of the Flood, which I and others have calculated; it does not mean that I accept these calculations, as fact.

I was merely disputing and disagreeing with Muffled's calculation with other calculations of the supposed dates of the Deluge. It doesn't mean that I believe any of the numbers are real.

The deluge was to have killed everyone on earth, correct? If that is true then please explain the following: the city of old Jericho was inhabbited from about 8,000BC down to about 300BC. The city of Megiddo had over 20 different sets of people that inhabited that site from 6000BC down to about 50BC. The Egyptian Culture was in existance from about 5000BC down to 400BC. The Ur civilization was in existance from about 4500BC down to 300BC. IF there had been a biblical deluge anywhere in these times of these cities and cultures they should have died out at the biblical deluge, but they never did.

I agreed with you that the Deluge had never happened in the way the Bible had stated. The disruption would have been massive and lasted longer (for decades and centuries), had it happened the way it say. There are no evidences of it.

 

[Arlanbb]

GNOSTIC ~ Yes, I understand what "supposedly" means, I said I was glade you used it. I was just adding more fire to your statements. arlan

 

[Dirty Penguin]

GNOSTIC ~ Yes, I understand what "supposedly" means, I said I was glade you used it. I was just adding more fire to your statements. arlan

There was no Adam and No Eve so there can be no such thing as "original Sin".....

But the bible does speak of Adam and Eve as though they were real people and all of the supposed blessed bloodline can trace their lineage back to them. If we are to believe they were just metaphores then the lineage given in the bible tracing people back to them is suspect. I highly doubt there was an Adam and Eve and archeology suggest the earth is billions of years old....not thousands. Man and other creatures have been on the earth for thousands and some creatures...millions of years. I think the writers of the bible being unaware of these facts wrote ficticious stories to explain the things around them....with their writings having "some" truths in them. It is a book of fiction and non-fiction wriiten by the hands of men, inspired by the minds of men......

 

[Arlanbb]

Your right on Dirty Penguin and if there was no "original sin" done by Adam/Eve then there is no reason for a religion called Christianty. arlan

 

[Muffled]

So those people received a soul, but their parents had none?

Interesting theory.

Created people don't have parents.

 

[Muffled]

MUFFLED ~ You didn't answer my question about your biblical deluge in 3000BC and Egypt in its full glory also in 3000BC? Did you know that human beings have lived in Egypt for the last 7,000 years. How is that possible if there was a biblical deluge only 5000 years ago?? arlan

I didn't answer because I don't have the information and don't remember it. It is likely that Egypt has flood myths but more than likely in reference to the flooding of the Nile.

 

[Muffled]

The Flood supposedly happened between 4100 or 4500 years, hence between 2100 and 2500 BCE.

The creation of the earth and Adam was supposed to happen less than 6000. I have calculated to be 5768 years (3760 BCE), using the Jewish calendar; 2008 is 5768 of the Jewish Era (JE).

There is 1656 years between that of Adam's creation to the Flood, which would make it 2104 BCE. In the Wikipedia, it says that the Flood happened in 2348 BCE (4356 years ago), which put the creation further back, to 4004 BCE (6012 years ago).

In any case, I am very doubtful that the Flood happened in 3000 BCE.

A good date for the flood would be 3760 BCE. I don't know on what Jews base their calendar.

 

[Muffled]

Your right on Dirty Penguin and if there was no "original sin" done by Adam/Eve then there is no reason for a religion called Christianty. arlan

A policeman not too far from here is accused of raping a woman while on duty. Since there is no sin this person is OK and doesn't need to be saved from anything. Try convincing the victim of that. I suppose you could claim that sin is natural and that people have always been this way but the Bible says that there was a time when sin did not exist (because people had no knowledge of evil).

 

[Arlanbb]

MUFFLED ~ Yes, you are right about the biblical concept of sin. But it goes further than that. The bible claims that the first sin in this world was done by two persons named Adam and Eve just after creation. And if you sin then you will die. Now the question is when did Adam and Eve live? You say that the Genesus deluge happened at 3760 BCE and there was 1656 years between creation and the deluge. So adding them together Adan and Eve lived about 5416 BCE, correct? So according to biblical creation story the first sin happened about 5416 BCE.
Did you know that people were living and dying on our planet thousands of years before 5415 BCE? The beginning of the city of Jericho was about 8300 BCE and lasted over 7000 years, the Yarmuckian culture started in about 6400 BCE and lasted 600 years, Hassuna culture started about 6000 BCE and lasted about 500 years, the Egyptian culture started about 5000 BCE and lasted 5000 years. The Ur civilization started in about 4500 BCE and was continiously there for over 4000 years. These are all archaeological facts. People lived and died way before Adam and Eve. Please explain to me where do you fit in the biblical deluge flood of 3760 BCE that was to have destroyed all civilization? How did all these People live through the deluge date of 3760 BCE?. The biblical stories of creation are not true, they don't fit into real history of earth. Therefore Adam and Eve could not have done the first sin as Paul claimed and Jesus is not he second Adam because Adam didn't sin first. I'm sorry but the concept of Christianty is built on false information. arlan

 

[gnostic]

A good date for the flood would be 3760 BCE. I don't know on what Jews base their calendar.

3760 BCE is the year of the creation, according to the Jewish calendar.

There is something terribly wrong for this date to be the year of the Flood. For one, there is only 367 years between the time of the Flood to the time Abraham left Haran (so that means 3393 BCE), and 467 years between Flood and Abraham's death (which is 3293 BCE).

Those are not really good dates for Abraham, because he would exist in the Neolithic period. Also Genesis 10:10-11, the cities of Babylon, Asshur, Akkad and Nineveh didn't exist.

Historically, Eresh, or more precisely Uruk, is the oldest of those listed in 10:10-11, but it is only dated as early as about 2950 BCE. Babylon only began historically around 2300 BCE, as a minor city; it was governed by governors. It was until the First Babylonian Dynasty, when it was ruled by Amorites that Babylon began to prosper, beginning in the 19th century BCE.

So the Flood being 3760 BCE is an incorrect date. it's way too early.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

A policeman not too far from here is accused of raping a woman while on duty. Since there is no sin this person is OK and doesn't need to be saved from anything. Try convincing the victim of that.

"Saved" from what exactly? He already committed this act of violence on the girl. Shouldn't he just have been saved from doing it in the first place? If there was anyone that should have been saved by this supposed god it should have been the victim.

And sin does not play a part in law. Adultery, from what your book says, is a sin....but it's not against the laws of the land. Not everyone follows your book so for most of us it is of no consequence in our daily lives.

I suppose you could claim that sin is natural and that people have always been this way but the Bible says that there was a time when sin did not exist (because people had no knowledge of evil).

Just because a book says so doesn't make it fact. We have been on the planet longer than the time line of the bible. And this sin yo speak of was supposed to be passed from the two supposedly created beings known as Adam and Eve. It doesn't matter which story we hear both seem to be incorrect......Adam and Ever were not real persons because they don't fit the Archeology. Nor were they a metaphor because your own books does not describe them as being a metaphor.