No Buddhism without Hinduism

[zenzero]

Friend Satsangi,

ignorance has to go.

Exactly!
With * ignorance* the *ignorant* too goes!
only consciousness remains!

Love & rgds

 

[Cosmos]

The allegory is the exact direct reference that I gave. It is unmistakable language, therefore the kotis is an ALLEGORY. Not because I said it is, but the Discourse of the Buddha explicitly cites this reality.

I shall narrate the most important part of Saddharmapundarika:

"As a result of my sustaining power, this world, with its gods, men and Asuras, forms the notion that recently the Lord Sakyamuni, after going forth from his home among the Sakyas, has awoken to full enlightenment, on the terrace of enlightenment, by the town of Gaya.
But one should not see thus, sons of good family. In fact it is many hundreds of thousands of myriads of Kotis of aeons ago that I have awoken to full enlightenment. ...Ever since, during all that time I have demonstrated Dharma to beings in this Saha world system, and also hundreds of thousands of Nayutas of Kotis of other world systems. But when I have spoken of other Tathagatas, beginning with the Tathagata Dipankara, and of the Nirvana of these Tathagatas, then that has just been conjured up by me as an emission of the skill in means by which I demonstrate Dharma." [my emphasis]

As we can clearly see that He speaks in parables/allegories to relate concepts to people depending upon their education, mental capacity, persuasion, beliefs, etc. He says that His views of reincarnation are used as a skillful means to communicate spiritual realities and not literal physical rebirth. He [the Buddha] further exemplifies this fact:

"He utters, however, different discourses on Dharma, whch differ in their objective basis, to beings who differ in their mode of life and their intentions, and who wonder amidst discrimination and perceptions, in order to generate the roots of good in them."

Another very important thing to keep in mind in respect to the Jataka Tales (tales of the Buddha's past lives) is that many, if not all, directly stem from Hindu tradition, to exemplify their allegorical nature in rendition. For example, the Buddha says that He was the Bodhisattva Brahmin Govinda who divided up the wealth of an empire from a king to his sons with utmost equity and trustworthiness, and every Hindu knows Govinda is Sri Krishna--who the Buddha identifies Himself AS--Who ministered to the sons of Pandu (Pandava)! Or when the Buddha relates the tale of Him being a bodhisattva who was the leader of a group of monkies, this directly paralleling the Hindu narrative wherein Hanuman the great monkey who aided Ram in destroying the personification of evil and was promised to become reborn as Avatar (Buddha) or Buddha-Avatar. Note that the use of animals as an allegory for rebirth can also be similar to how Native Americans utilize animal spirits or symbolism to tell a moral story, which apparently the Buddha also skillfully performs. And briefly, the reason why we can trust that the Buddha has existed for untold eons in reality is due to the fact, as Baha'is accept, the divine Messengers of God are not truly borne in this world, but in the Worlds of God from another universe entirely.

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

Some nice info on this subject.

Ramana Maharshi and Self-Enquiry | Buddhist Geeks

 

[Satsangi]

Friend Cosmos,

The way you interpret the above passage is completely different from the way I interpret it. Lord Buddha says that he has ALWAYS been enlightened- since aeons. All this- his being born as a prince, attaining enlightenment under the tree etc are just to demostrate the Dharma to the public. BUT this is the STATE of only the "enlightened people" and of course, of the Lord who is always enlightened- eons before this birth and eons later- He is the same. Even with taking birth, He is still birthless. So are His Mukta devotees- just like Him.

But for the people who are not enlightened and under the influence of ignorance, the rebirths continue for eons.

Regards,

 

[Cosmos]

I agree entirely

 

[Satsangi]

Friend Cosmos,

I came across the following:-

Chhandogya Upanishad V. 107: “Those whose conduct during the previous life has been good presently obtain good birth, such as the birth of a Brahmin, a Kshatriya, or a Vaisya; those whose conduct has been bad presently obtain some evil birth such as that of a dog or a pig.”

Regards,

 

[Cosmos]

Friend Cosmos,

I came across the following:-

Chhandogya Upanishad V. 107: “Those whose conduct during the previous life has been good presently obtain good birth, such as the birth of a Brahmin, a Kshatriya, or a Vaisya; those whose conduct has been bad presently obtain some evil birth such as that of a dog or a pig.”

Regards,

Interesting... However, it should be borne in mind (get it? lol) that this could as easily as it is taken literally could be interpreted with a much more pristine allegorical nature. For example, one thing that eludes Hindus and Buddhists when the "previous life" is mentioned--which the Buddha expands upon--is that THIS very life is exactly the previous lifetime in question, being a paradox, and the "hereafter" (Buddha's words) is just that... the Afterlife. It does not take stupendous reasoning to see even this as a metaphor for we can either become reborn with the spiritual Qualities and Attributes of God (Brahmayanas or devas) or become spiritually handicapped and blind by reducing our consciousness to that state or condition of the animalistic self. Both can be experienced here and now and finds completion or union when we pass on.

As a further example, my good friend, even in the Qur'an, very much the holy text of a monotheistic religion, where souls in the Hereafter are equated with animals--such as swine or apes--who shall be driven into hellfire as cattle are driven into a river out of thirst. This is a poetic and allegoric fashion of rendering to our consciousness abstract concepts that we cannot perceive fully while in this life and form. Further, to us Baha'is we view our existence as "one soul in many bodies" (Guardian's words). Thank you, Satsanghi, as that was a most interesting chapter and verse--please keep up the dialogue.