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No Buddhism without Hinduism

Satsangi

Active Member
Hi Cosmos,

I read the chapters quoted by you above; kindly quote the specific verse from Brihadaranyaka IV 4.4 and 4.3 because (1) I think that there is some confusion in the interpretation especiallly in regards to the soul being able to take many births "simultaneously." (2) Kindly quote the specific verse and your interpretation of "after him follows the knowledge, his works and the former consciousness."

Regards,
 
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Cosmos

Member
I will be more than glad to quote the sources, dear Satsangi.

Indeed, there is confusion in interpreting verses of the Vedas.

Brihadaranyaka-Upanishad, IV, 4.4 reads:

"As the sculptor takes the material from a statue and chisles therefrom another newer and fairer form, so this soul also, after it has taken leave of the body and rid itself from ignorance, creates for itself another newer, fairer form, whether of the fathers, or the Gandharvas, or the gods, or Prajapati, of Brahma or other beings."
Now, my basic interpretation of that, which I believe would be staying true to the essence of the Vedas, is that we are to free ourselves from ignorance so that we may develop spiritual qualities and attributes so that after becoming spiritually reborn here in this very life we will have powers and abilities in the next world in the Hereafter without being spiritually handicapped. For example, ghandarvas are masculine spirits often depicted as birds or horses akin to the same type of spirits mentioned the Qur'an, both feminine and masculine, which are I believe ways of representing the angelic nature of inner beauty, courage, grace, etc.; these aide us. Prajapati is apparently Sanskrit to mean "lord of creatures" that originally represented the power of procreation, eventually becoming personified with creator deities. We are to become "like God" and to be "in the image of God" be attaining the Qualities and Attributes of God in Hindu theology is known as the realm of brahma-loka.

Brihadaranyaka-Upanishad, IV, 4.3 reads:

"As a caterpillar which has wriggled to the top of a blade of grass, draws itself over to a new blade, so man after he has put aside his body draws himself over to the new existence. As the soul moves out, life moves after it, and as life moves, the various vital airs depart after it. (After) Him follow his knowledge, his works, and his former consciousness."

It is important to note that what is being communicated is that we are to prepare for a wholly different existence than we conceive at present. Our works and knowledge can live on in this world in various ways, whether it be our ancestral heritage of the pyramids, passing knowledge to our children, leaving landmarks, or written books, and our "former consciousness" is possibly a psychic imprint that we all can leave behind, as we are connected to ever other living soul and more so when we pass on. Inspiration comes this way, when our consciousness is aligned to a frequency that can have subtler waves of information enter it where we can glimpse through the higher faculties of the mind/brain realities and possibilities that change our lives on many levels. Ancestral memory, for example, is real and not only, I believe, manifests biologically and genetically as the human characteristics of personality traits, instincts, proclivities, etc., but spiritual manifestations of wisdom, culture, technology, science, art, etc.

I hope my perspective helped. :)
 

Satsangi

Active Member
The Upanishads, Part 2 (SBE15) Index

The above is the link to the Brihadaranyaka Upanishad traslation by Mr Mueller; the 4.3 and 4.4 are actually two "chapters" with many verses. Both do not contain the exact translation that you have put and hence I asked the verse number.

In either case, I partly agree with your interpretation that the soul from one birth to the next, goes to another body. Gandharvas are celestial beings who are poets and musicians and can appear and disappear at will; they usually serve in the palace of Indra in the Swarga. Prajapati is the King or the ruler of this earth during this creation; during each creation there is a different Prajapati. Lord Brahma is the Creator who created all the creatures in the Brahmanda according to God's wishes and his abode is called the Brahma-Loka. One way to liberation as you mention is to "advance" spiritually from birth to birth- as in Bhagvad Gita Lorad Krishna says "Anek janma samsiddhastato yati param gatim" meaning after many births one achieves Para Gati (final liberation or Moksha). All the Devas including Lord Brahma have a defined life span and even the Brahma-Loka (Satya Loka - abode of Lord Brahma) undergoes dissolution during the Prakrut Pralaya (dissolution of this Brahmanda with all 14 Lokas). Hence, all this is not the final liberation.

In your other quote about the caterpillar, what happens at the time of dying is actually described. The Soul with with its subtle body (pranas or vital air, mental impressions of karmas and Vasana- meaning strong desires) all leave the CURRENT body. In my opinion, this Soul is referred here as the "former consciousness" (Chaitanya) in RELATION to the body it has just left- hence called "former".

One thing where we differ is that, as you mentioned in the previous posts, the soul has to advance and does not undergo births in "lower" bodies. There is a clear example in Srimad Bhagvatam Purana about King Bharat who becomes a renunciate and then gets attached to a motherless baby deer in the forest. Due to this strong attachment to the form of deer, his next birth was as a deer. But even as a deer, he was spiritually very advanced and performs penance and then gets human birth as "JadaBharata"- who is considered one of the greatest Saints and he then attained liberation or Moksha. Hence, although King Bharat was born as a deer; he retained all the spiritual advancement in his prior life.

Regards,
 

Cosmos

Member
Well, if you remember, Satsangi, going back to the ghandarva spirits, which are depicted as DEERS, then we can rightfully observe that the Purana is describing King Bharat transforming (rebirth) into a symbolic deer, which naturally reflects spiritual qualities and attributes, as it is beyond an intelligent mind to accept that deers or any other animal possesses faculties and spirituality as human beings.;) The other symbolic depiction of ghandarva spirits, as you mentioned, are musicians--inspiration. They are spirits that inspire the inner faculties from the Spirit World. The interpretation of "former consciousness" as former physical body is correct. It should be kept in mind that the Upanishads and Suttas of the Buddha truly describe evolution into finer, keener, fairer bodies (or vehicles) that are unrelated to our current parameters of four-dimensional corporeal reality. Notice how incongruent it is for a being to be transmitted to a lower degree of existence yet retain higher degrees of perfection that we cannot associate with the animal kingdom. As as example, think of the concept of spirit animals which can be invoked to stimulate chakras into activity that can stimulate the higher senses and faculties by priming the reptile/mammalian-brain. This would be my interpretation of the Vedas.


Blessings, Tim
 

Madhuri

RF Goddess
Staff member
Premium Member
It is actually something that I have been confused about- whether souls really can go from a particular form of life to a lower form of life.
I would say, from the accounts and teachings in Vedic literature that it certainly seems that one can karmically take on the the body of a lower life form but even when this happens it seems to be temporary.

On the other hand, there is the concept of the evolution of consciousness. According to this perspective, there is a constant evolution and the idea of returning to a lower life form seems strange- at least, I do not understand it.

Cosmos, reincarnation in the Hindu is very clear on some levels. There is no doubt the soul goes from one body to another in the journey to Self-Realisation. There is no doubt that the scriptures tell us that we remain in the material universe caught up by Maya and karmic laws until we reach this Realisation. There is no doubt that there is an evolution of consciousness that takes place.

There are different forms of energy, certainly. When you speak of spirits and chakras and mistical activity you are refering to things that occur on astral and spiritual levels. As we evolve spiritually, we are also able to attain bodies in these realities. It is a constant evolution until we are liberated and attain the Spiritual kingdom. This is, as I observe, clearly explained in Vedic scripture.
 

zenzero

Its only a Label
Friend Madhuri,

On the other hand, there is the concept of the evolution of consciousness. According to this perspective, there is a constant evolution and the idea of returning to a lower life form seems strange- at least, I do not understand it.

Personal understanding is that it is possible to jump the gun either way depending on karmic balance. If some karma has been left while in that form or some thoughts of such kind one could be born in a lower form or vice versa if there are some positive gains.

Love & rgds
 

Madhuri

RF Goddess
Staff member
Premium Member
Friend Madhuri,



Personal understanding is that it is possible to jump the gun either way depending on karmic balance. If some karma has been left while in that form or some thoughts of such kind one could be born in a lower form or vice versa if there are some positive gains.

Love & rgds

Thank you Zenzero,
it does certainly seem to be the case. It all comes down to consciousness. When we die, our state of consciousness directs us to the appropriate next body (and of course state of consciousness influences our karma).
 

Cosmos

Member
Ancient cultures with primitive cosmology could only anthropomorphise spiritual metaphors into corporeal-based realities due to early man's miscomprehension of abstract concepts. From my personal studies of Vedic scripture, I cannot say it is evident that the teachings mean that we cyclically return to a physical existence, as this would negate justice, mercy, or logic in the way the universe operates, but it definitely describes our continual progress in worlds to come. Reincarnation in the most abstract sense is mind-to-mind (moment-to-moment) psychological Coming and Going (Rebirth). Note that to be in "constant evolution" there can by law be no retrogression.
Only when we apply our mental faculties to higher realities do we perceive literalism contained in Vedic scripture. With spiritual eyes we can understand the allegories and similes expressing intangible, incomprehensible concepts. For example, the early Hindu-Buddhist philosophers and sages believed that class, health, and even infant mortality, were due to negative karma individuals perpetrated in past lives none of us can say we recall. Yet with modern science we have discovered the underlying causes in economic and biological sciences, as well as the means to control and eradicate many of these agents that are the causal factors behind these sufferings, revealing the superstition of our ancestors.
So, yes, there is doubt as to whether the Vedas state that souls reincarnate in the physical realm, when some Hindu schools of thought to this day have differing opinions on the matter. It is undoubtedly clear that souls journey from one state of consciousness to another and that the nature of the soul of man is eternal and continually evolving towards higher degrees of perfection. Consider how a dog, cow, an ant, or any other animal, is devoid of creative or rational thought which modern science has proven distinguishes our species--wherefore is the necessity or rationale behind being culpable for punishment or reward when this is dependent upon recollection of our "former consciousness" (Upanishads)? No animal has insight into past lives, let alone rationality, and if the argument is that we cannot talk to animals (which is not entirely true at all), then the argument is it is still "humanly" possible to be cognizant of past lives--so why can I not, nor the vast majority of any human being, do this so as to be genuinely responsible for punishment as a lower creature or rewarded as an endowed human being or god?
This is the sort of reasoning reincarnation theory runs into. My belief is that it is a theory devised by peoples who lacked science of biology to account for disease, race, differences in ability, birth, etc., therefore a neatly packaged philosophical construct of corporeal-related ideas is the only solution for our ancestors to cope and understand divine revelation. Keep in mind that the Divine Manifestations (Avataras) speak in the "creative word", so to assume they're using concrete concepts, when the Buddha is well-known (as Jesus) for using parable or metaphorical similes, is fallacious.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/anthropomorphise
 

Madhuri

RF Goddess
Staff member
Premium Member
Ancient cultures with primitive cosmology could only anthropomorphise spiritual metaphors into corporeal-based realities due to early man's miscomprehension of abstract concepts. From my personal studies of Vedic scripture, I cannot say it is evident that the teachings mean that we cyclically return to a physical existence, as this would negate justice, mercy, or logic in the way the universe operates, but it definitely describes our continual progress in worlds to come. Reincarnation in the most abstract sense is mind-to-mind (moment-to-moment) psychological Coming and Going (Rebirth). Note that to be in "constant evolution" there can by law be no retrogression.
Only when we apply our mental faculties to higher realities do we perceive literalism contained in Vedic scripture. With spiritual eyes we can understand the allegories and similes expressing intangible, incomprehensible concepts. For example, the early Hindu-Buddhist philosophers and sages believed that class, health, and even infant mortality, were due to negative karma individuals perpetrated in past lives none of us can say we recall. Yet with modern science we have discovered the underlying causes in economic and biological sciences, as well as the means to control and eradicate many of these agents that are the causal factors behind these sufferings, revealing the superstition of our ancestors.
So, yes, there is doubt as to whether the Vedas state that souls reincarnate in the physical realm, when some Hindu schools of thought to this day have differing opinions on the matter. It is undoubtedly clear that souls journey from one state of consciousness to another and that the nature of the soul of man is eternal and continually evolving towards higher degrees of perfection. Consider how a dog, cow, an ant, or any other animal, is devoid of creative or rational thought which modern science has proven distinguishes our species--wherefore is the necessity or rationale behind being culpable for punishment or reward when this is dependent upon recollection of our "former consciousness" (Upanishads)? No animal has insight into past lives, let alone rationality, and if the argument is that we cannot talk to animals (which is not entirely true at all), then the argument is it is still "humanly" possible to be cognizant of past lives--so why can I not, nor the vast majority of any human being, do this so as to be genuinely responsible for punishment as a lower creature or rewarded as an endowed human being or god?
This is the sort of reasoning reincarnation theory runs into. My belief is that it is a theory devised by peoples who lacked science of biology to account for disease, race, differences in ability, birth, etc., therefore a neatly packaged philosophical construct of corporeal-related ideas is the only solution for our ancestors to cope and understand divine revelation. Keep in mind that the Divine Manifestations (Avataras) speak in the "creative word", so to assume they're using concrete concepts, when the Buddha is well-known (as Jesus) for using parable or metaphorical similes, is fallacious.

I have to respectfully disagree with you Cosmos.

What have your personal studies in Vedic literature entailed? Was it with an education institution or privately? Were you interpreting everything from a Baha'i perspective of reading interpretations from Hindu scholars?

You mentioned justice and mercy. Where do these things come into play in Hinduism? God is not an interfering entity. The soul exists as part of the Marginal Potency of God. This concept explains that it is our material desires that keep us in the physical reality. As long as we desire the things of this world, we continue to take birth here. As long as our consciousness and karma is linked to this world, we continue to take birth here.

I cannot agree with your statement about logic and the universe as it implies you know exactly how the universe operates.

You speak about the early Hindu-Buddhist philosophers and karma. What you said is still true of today- and always. Karma is a natural law. Everything that has happened leads to what does happen. This notion of karma, which carries from one life to the next, does not in my opinion, contradict scientific understandings of disease and economy. Karma is not a magical phenomenon. It is the law of cause and affect that goes beyond the material.

You use many words to say something very simple. If you are asking why we cannot recall past lives it is very simple. We are bound by the body we are situated in. Our brain contains only memories experienced with the body. We are trapped by the physical and the physical is very limiting. Spiritual progression is liberation from this entrapment.

I can understand why you make the assumption that our ancestors knew so little that they had to make up stories and ideas to explain strange phenomenon. However, I consider the Vedic masters to be very Realised and knowledgeable. In order to teach the path to realisation they had to know it.

I will end this by saying that I agree that many stories are in fact allegorical. I also think that many stories are meant to be both historical accounts AND hold deep allegorical meaning. And then I also believe that many teachings are very direct. I consider Krishna's teachings in the Gita to be very direct.

I have to request, if it is possible, that when you write to please allow for paragraphs and proper structure. It can be difficult to read otherwise.
 
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Satsangi

Active Member
Friend Cosmos,

Human birth is actually better than any Gandharva or Deva as the maximum chances of final liberation are only in the human birth. Hence, from the view point of liberation, it would be a mistake to consider Gandharva birth as superior. Even the Devas yearn for human birth as per the Puranas. Secondly, Gandharva are not the same as celestial animals as per my previous posts. Yes, there are other celestial animals like the Kamdhenu Cow, Airavat elephant, Varun Deva's horses etc.

Even the animals of the same species have different nature and it is not difficult to see how spiritual even the animals can be depending on their prior spiritual development.

Let me give you another example of karmas leading to births in lower yonis (categories). Jay and Vijay were the guards of Shree Narayan in Vaikuntha- meaning they had achieved liberation. They insulted Sanakadik Rishi who had come too meet the Lord in Vaikuntha. As a result, they were born three times as a demon and each time Lord toook an Avatar to slay them. They are :- (1) Hiranyaksha and Hiranyakashipu which were killed by Varah Avatar and Narsimha Avatar respectively. (2) Ravana and Kumbhkarana who were slayed by Lord Rama (3) Shishupaal and Kamsa (? or may be Jarasangha- not sure here)) which were killed by Lord Krishna.

Other example of Gandharvas taking birth as human is in Mahabharata. King Shantanu married Ganga Devi and Bhishma (Devavrat) was their son. He was among the eight Gandharvas who were cursed by the Rishi to take human birth. In Krishna Avatar, as a child, Lord Krishna uproots two trees who were actually Gandharvas in their previous births and were cursed by a Rishi to become trees.

In the Rama Avatar, Lord Rama frees Ahalya who had become a rock (sheela) by touching his feet to the rock. Ahalya had become the rock due to the curse of the Rishi.

Even the Avatars of Lord have been in "lower Yonis"- this is an example only- I am well aware that the Avatar reigns supreme to anything in any Yoni. These Avatars include- Matsya (fish), Tortoise (Kachchha), Boar (Varah), Horse (Hayagriva), Narasimha (Lion- Man). Even the human Avatars can be considered as the "lower yoni" compared to the Lord Himself. Lord Shiva took birth as Hanumanji (Vanar or Monkey Yoni) too according to some Purana.

The fact that our ancestors did not know science and hence believed in the reincarnation is utterly false. Ten generations down the road, we would be called superstitious too for there would be many thing we were ignorant about. The counter argument to yours is may be our ancestors did not know that time due to karma itself and hence infants of that time died early due to their karmas. But now, may be due to karma we know more and hence they are surviving which may be due to their karmas (or God's wish).

Finally, "justice, mercy and logic" as you mention are all the products of our mind and how we "need or perceive" the good God to be. God does not punish you; your own action produces a reaction. In fact, most mercifully, He reduces the effects of your Karmas when you surrender to Him. He has most mercifully created this whole creation so that you can reap the fruits of your karmas and try to liberate yourself to the Moksha.

Also, if Hitler, Stalin and the likes were to definitely progress to a "higher" spiritual level in their next birth, then it would negate the very core concept of Karma itself.

Regards,
 
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Madhuri

RF Goddess
Staff member
Premium Member
Satsangi, is has been a while since I read about gandharvas and such. I am aware that even in the heavens, Rishis and devas work toward spiritual progression. It is explained that in the heavens one can enjoy or be spiritual just as we can here. But why is it better to be human? I do not remember this.
 

Satsangi

Active Member
Satsangi, is has been a while since I read about gandharvas and such. I am aware that even in the heavens, Rishis and devas work toward spiritual progression. It is explained that in the heavens one can enjoy or be spiritual just as we can here. But why is it better to be human? I do not remember this.

According to Srimad Bhagvatam 5/19/21, human birth in "Bharat Khand" is considered like "Chintamani" which is a gem which gives all you wish for; "Bharat Khand" has been called the "Moksha Kshetra". Even Devas like Indra wish for this birth as the Saadhan for DIRECT FINAL MOKSHA is available nowhere except here out of all 14 lokas. The reasons are:-

(1) Surrendering the Indriyas and Mind to an Avatar or BrahmaVetta Saint who have 30 Gunas of the great Saint mentioned in Srimad Bhagvatam (11/11/29 to 33) is the ONLY Saadhan for FINAL liberation. The Avatars of God and such Saints are ALWAYS present without any gap in time in the "Bharat Khand"; they are always PRAGAT- this is true till now when you compare where the maximum number of the greatest spiritual personalities or Avatar manifested. If all the inhabitants of the "Bharat Khand" try for Moksha, all can achieve it. Those who do not try and indulge in worldly pursuits inspite of being born in the "Bharat Khand" have been called "suicidal" by the scriptures.

(2) NarNarayan Rishi is the "King" of the "Bharat Khand" and He constantly does a great Tapas with Dharma, Jnana, Vairagya, Bhakti and all other great Gunas for the benefit of the devotees in the "Bharat Khand"; this amplifies even minor austerities of the devotees manifold in much less a time. (Srimad Bhagvatam 10/87/6)

(3) Just as humans have gross, subtle and causal bodies of the Jeeva, the Devatas too have corresponding Viraat, Sutratma and Avyakrut bodies. These are very different from the Jeeva, but are much bigger and deeper than that of the Jeeva. The Maya for the Devatas is even deeper and bigger than for the Jeeva.

(4) Also the "distractions" from the spiritual path are in plenty in the other lokas.

One example I remember is Lord Brahma himself asking to be born as a fish in Yamuna where Child Krishna is doing leelas so that he can be near His feet.

Regards,
 
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Madhuri

RF Goddess
Staff member
Premium Member
Thank you for your response Satsangi.
Perhaps you can clarify for me because what I will tell you is only what I have been told, not what I have read. Is it true that there are souls who have progressed to such lokas as Bramha Loka for example, and from there attained complete liberation?

I will also investigate this further myself.
 

Satsangi

Active Member
Thank you for your response Satsangi.
Perhaps you can clarify for me because what I will tell you is only what I have been told, not what I have read. Is it true that there are souls who have progressed to such lokas as Bramha Loka for example, and from there attained complete liberation?

I will also investigate this further myself.

The 14 lokas in the above post are- Mrityuloka (earth) in the center; six lokas above it which are- Bhuvarloka ("bad" Devas), Swargaloka (Indra and other Devas), Maharloka (Pitris), Janaloka (Rishis), Tapaloka (Rishis), Satyaloka (Lord Brahma's loka) AND there are seven lokas below the Mrityuloka (earth) which are- Atal, Veetal, Sutal (Daityas reside in these three lokas), Talaatal, Mahatal, Rasatal (Nishachar lives here) and last is Paatal ( great Serpants live here).

I had never thought about the question you asked, but out of all the stories of the Puranas that I can remember now, there is NOT a single example of any soul having attained final liberation DIRECTLY from the above lokas except the Mrityuloka.

The other abodes like the Badrikashram, Shwetadweepa, Vaikuntha, Goloka, Brahmamahol etc are Bhagwan's abode already and the souls who reach here are Muktas already in my opinion.

Regards,
 
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Madhuri

RF Goddess
Staff member
Premium Member
Thank you, I will let you know if I find anything contradictory. This is very interesting!
 

Cosmos

Member
Well, this is where I separate allegories from literalism. For example, even the Buddha in His Suttas demonstrates (in His view) the absurdity of reincarnation as it is popularly conceived. One of the best examples of this is His discourse with the disciples of founder of Jainism. Dear, Madhuri, it is not our ancestors who related the Vedas, but the Divine Manifestations (Avatars), and man has preserved the words but the spirit is dead. In any case, it cannot be argued that the ancestors were ignorant in matters we are not today due to education and modern sciences.

The examples of lower existences are experienced here and now, as well as the higher states or planes of existence. Being quite familiar with Hindu-Buddhist theology, I am aware that human beings are the most blessed creatures as only we can use our intellect and spirit to become awakened beings, and this parallels Baha'i theology. If Stalin and Hitler could not progress... then it testifies to the injustice of God directly! To expect me or anyone else for that matter to blindly accept authoritative opinion on scriptural or doctrinal interpretation is exactly why Brahmanism has infected Hinduism with perverse ideologies and corrupt theology for so many centuries!

It should be reminded that Hindu philosophy, even on issues of reincarnation, are not universal (maybe majoral), though it is popularized as such. Consider the corruption and ignorance of Christian ministers or Muslim mullahs, or any other arbitrary authority figure expounding upon age old concepts that have not evolved. Again, I am going to emphasize that ancient beliefs in reincarnation largely stem from primitive man's inability to comprehend the "creative word" of revelatory messages proceeding from divine personages who spoke a language that defied the conceptual perception of the people of the age (as in every age) by limiting the concepts presented into anthropormorphic and corporeal relevancies, because they did not have a comprehensive understanding of contagions that caused stillborns and early death, socio-economic science that divided people into classes of haves and have-nots, or why thunderstorms brought disaster and famine. Science has eliminated many dimensions of these catastrophes through man's will to grasp his/her reality and do away with karmic fatalism.

Please consider this discourse from the Buddha in Samyutta-nikaya, II. 13-16:

Siddartha: This truth, Ananda, that on consciousness depends the corporeal organism, is to be understood this way: Suppose Ananda, consciousness were not to descend into the maternal womb--would the corporeal organism consolidate in the maternal womb?


Ananda: Nay, verily, Revered Sir.

Siddartha: Suppose, Ananda, consciousness, after having descended into the maternal womb, were then to go again--pray, would the corporeal organism be born to life in this world?

Ananda: Nay, verily, Revered Sir.

Siddartha: Suppose, Ananda, consciousness were to be severed from a child, either boy or girl--pray, would the corporeal organism attain to growth, increase and development?

Ananda: Nay, verily, Revered Sir.

Siddhartha: Accordingly, Ananda, we have in consciousness that cause--the occassion, the origin and the dependence of the corporeal organism. I have said that on the corporeal organism depends consciousness. This truth is to be understood in this way. Suppose, Ananda, that consciousness were to gain no foothold in this corporeal organism--pray, would in the future be birth, old age and death adn the coming into being of misery's host?

Ananda: Nay, verily, Revered Sir.

[emphasis mine]

Of more importance is when the Buddha asked the disciples of Mahavira (Nigantha Nataputta), "Do you positively know that you, as present individuals, have actually existed in the past or that you have done such and such actions, good and bad, as the case may be." (sources: Devadahas-Sutta, Majjhima-nikaya) upon which He was responded with a resounding 'No', so He questioned wherefore can we judge aright between our said punishments and rewards in this life when NO ONE remembers them (basis for mercy and justice)? Just as good of an example of the Buddha's own refutation of reincarnation beliefs (believe it or not) is His discussion with young brahmans in Majhimma-nikaya, II. 156-157:

Siddhartha: Do you know that there is descent into the womb?

Brahmins: We know this, sir, that there must be coitus of the parents, it must be the mother's season and the Ghandarvas must be present. If there is conjunction of three things thus, there is descent into the womb.

Siddhartha: Do you know, good sirs, whether that Ghandarva is a noble warrior or a Brahmana, or a merchent-trader, or a low-born worker?

Brahmins: We do not know that, Sir.

It is evident that the Buddha's understanding of Vedic Hinduism is that reincarnation was a fallacy of the brahaman class. Note that the discourses do not allude to any context of reincarnation (please check them out yourselves) other than the BELIEF they say only corporeal/physical oriented dimensions could be applied to a metaphysical reality. The Buddha explicitly states that if Consciousness (Vijnana) or Mind-Soul does not associate or detaches from the physical body prematurely that there is no process of any of the phases of birth, aging, old age and death, or "Coming and Going" (Rebirth). So, something that Hindus and Buddhists ask frequently is: Why, then, are past life memories attributed to Buddha Gautama and Sri Krishna? That is easily answered with one word: OMNISCIENCE! :D

Bhagavad-Gita, VII. 26 states:

"Arjuna, I know all beings, past as well as present, nay, even those that are yet to come; but none knows me."
 

zenzero

Its only a Label
Friends,

Just a slight deviation.

Paatal ( great Serpants live here).
Bible too has similarly the SATAN in the disguise as a *serpant* to entice Adam & Eve.

Love & rgds
 

Madhuri

RF Goddess
Staff member
Premium Member
I appreciate your understandings Cosmos. However, my understanding of scriptures is based on the acceptance of the Bhagavadgita as being a true discource between Krishna (God) and Arjuna. How I interpret the teachings therein is not based on what Buddha preached, but on a wide range of purports from different Hindu masters as well as my own perceptions of life that have also been influenced by scientific discoveries.

I am not sure what you meant when you wrote: "If Stalin and Hitler could not progress". What was this in response to? I am confused, because I do not think that myself or Satsangi alluded to the idea that humans cannot progress. What do you mean by progress? It is my understanding that humans continue to take birth in the human form until they achieve Moksha, liberation.
 

zenzero

Its only a Label
Friend Cosmos,

To expect me or anyone else for that matter to blindly accept authoritative opinion on scriptural or doctrinal interpretation is exactly why Brahmanism has infected Hinduism with perverse ideologies and corrupt theology for so many centuries!

Totally agree that truth once spoken of is falsified and TRUTH is only to be realised by every individual and be TRUTH itself.

One of the reason why Taoism and Buddhism merged beautifully and Zen or Dyana evolved.

Love & rgds
 

Satsangi

Active Member
Friend Cosmos,

All of us, including the "Brahminism" that you seem dead against, the Baha'i philosophy, Lord Buddha etc- all of us are expressing here our own opinions, interpretations and doctrines. To say that one is "perverse" and "infection" is in itself wrong; the other side can easily say the same for any other doctrine and turn out to be correct.

You bring science to the forefront to somehow "negate" the karma. I do not think it does; the scientific advances are in itself a type of karma and due to karma. Somehow, you seem to consider the previous people as "primitive minds"- the same "primitive minds" gave us the greatest gift- the knowledge of liberation as given in Upanishats, Vedas.

I do agree with you that there were beliefs during the mediveal ages which came out of ignorance and this was prevalent all over the world. But, this prevalence of beliefs and also science does not in any way conclusively disprove the reincarnation. I do respect your opinion, although I completely disagree with it.

By the way, I see no contradiction to any Hindu beliefs in the first quote presented by you from Samyutta-Nikaya. It is true that without Consciousness, there is no "life" and hence no birth or aging or misery. In fact, may be our Buddhist friends can explain if this "consciousness" is the same as "atman" or not!

The second dialogue is a news to me that the Gandharva should be present at the time of coitus- can you please quote a direct Scripture referrence instead of this sentence attributed to an unnamed Brahmin from a Buddhist text? Also, I see no direct refutation of reincarnation in this dialogue that you quote.

Also, your emphasis that no one remenbers their past lives is a fallacy; there are many examples of people who have accurately remembered their past lives. I had a book with individual names and their locations in 5 out of 7 continents- if you say, I will try to find it and post it. In fact, I remember that friend Dharma_seeker has already posted a lot of such information in one of the threads under Hinduism DIR.

The quote from Bhagvad Gita VII. 26 is mistranslated ; the shloka is translated as "Arjuna, I know my (and yours and others) births; but you do not remember/know yours."

As Madhuri said, as follwers of Sanatana Dharma, our understanding is based on the scriptures interpreted by the Gurus of the Sanatana Dharma- the more "recent" ones are Adi Shankara, Ramanuja, Vallabhacharya etc or based on our own reading.

In fact, yesterday I was reading about "Anatta" concept by Lord Buddha. My interpretation of it was that He used the terminology just to negate any Mayik concept that can be associated with the Atman. Lord Buddha did not imply "absence of Atman", but said "nothing" to denote that there as nothing Mayik about it- like the "Neti, Neti" principle of Adi Shankara. I also know that my Buddhist friends will definitely differ from my views here and thats okay- as friend Zenzero said- Truth is to be realized by each individual himself or herself.

Regards,
 
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