No Buddhism without Hinduism

[gruggle10]

even if the kaabah is being moved and transfered to somewhere else,we still pray faces mekah..we are not worship that kaabah

 

[Abu Rashid]

Excellent point brother gruggle, and in fact the even I mentioned above when the black stone was damaged, it was in fact stolen for about 80 years and carried off to Bahrain, yet no Muslim began praying facing Bahrain.

And further the Prophet (pbuh) said that a single drop of Muslim blood is more precious to God than the entire Ka'aba and all it's surroundings. Clearly it is only a building, and has no divine quality whatsoever in Islam.

 

[Madhuri]

Ok, so if someone claims to be the complete whole, would you worship them?

Claiming something doesn't prove you are what you say.
I wouldn't worship someone unless I felt very convinced that they are worthy of worship.

 

[Abu Rashid]

So if you were to be convinced a person constituted a "divine expression of the whole" you'd worship them?

 

[LuisDantas]

So why worship the individual (idols) instead of the whole?

Hello, Abu Rashid.

I know that this question was already well answered, but I thought it might be worth offering a different wording on the matter.

You see, the Hindu understanding of Divinity emphasizes the idea that Creation is all, so to speak, Sacred, a direct evidence of the Divine due to its very existence.

It is often also non-dualistic, denying that there are any significant religious differences among beings.

From that I gather that Hindus rarely, if ever, think of Avatars in terms all that similar to those of gods or parts of gods. It might help to see them as a sort of envoys or ambassadors of the whole Sacred aspects of existence.

Sure, that might look suspiciously like those "other Gods" that Moses warned against worshipping - but really, Hindu culture does not much help in commiting such a mistake. Heck, I daresay that the very idea of competing Gods is weird from a Hindu perspective. It would be like suggesting that there are various atmospheres, perhaps.

When I try to put myself in an Hindu's shoes, I always conclude that they aren't really politheistic (a common mistake, but nevertheless a mistake). Worshipping, say, Hanuman, Kali, or Krishna isn't worshipping the part as opposed to the whole. Not any more than being at a specific beach is being only "partially" at sea, really. While the Sacred itself surely transcends the circunstances of the worship to an untold degree, the worshipper itself is only human and can't possibly be beyond the parameters of a true Avatar.

That's how I see it, anyway. Of course, I am not an Hindu.

 

[gruggle10]

may i know something,why cow is so special in hinduism?

 

[Madhuri]

may i know something,why cow is so special in hinduism?

The material universe is embodied by three main modes of nature: goodness, passion and ignorance. We all portray aspects of these three modes, with one or more being strongest for each of us. Fir example, a very lazy person would represent ignorance and a very energetic person who does a lot of sport might represent someone in the mode of passion.

The cow represents the mode of goodness. She might not be the most intelligent animal, but she has a very sweet and motherly nature. So much, that the cow represents one of the 7 Mothers in Hinduism. To kill a cow is thus seen symbolically like killing one's own mother. A great offense, I can assure you.

 

[Madhuri]

So if you were to be convinced a person constituted a "divine expression of the whole" you'd worship them?

If God wanted to reveal Himself to me, I am sure I owuld be made aware of it. I do not expect to meet God in this lifetime, as an Avatar, because I am not Self-Realised and because the next avatar to come is Kalki, and that won't be for some time yet.

 

[Madhuri]

You are correct Luis, we are definitely not polytheistic but I think Abu knows that.

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

may i know something,why cow is so special in hinduism?

It's not the Cow itself.

We Hindus regard all living beings as sacred. The birds in the air, fish in the sea, mammals walking on the earth, all refections of the divine. To the Hindu the cow is a symbol of these creatures.

The Cow is Gentle and the Cow is Generous it gives us milk,cream,yogurt and butter. We even use its waste to grow or vegetables. To us protection of the cow is respect for the Ideals of Generosity and respect for all the peaceful beings of the world.

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

So why worship the individual (idols) instead of the whole?

Some Hindu's don't use idols others do. It's all about personal taste. I see Islam as a path to God. Hinduism is a path to the truth also. I have murtis on my Alter, They reminds me of God and increases my devotion. I don't see God as clay or even having form. Hinduism creates a flexible mind so this is not an issue for us.

 

[Cosmos]

I'd like to comment to Rashid and Madhuri respectively.

Brother Rashid, I am most pleased that you are familiar with the Hadith in question. I understand that there are details but the essential point of the narration does not change what it meant. All the Prophets of God, along with the world, shall be raised and they shall beg Jesus--who will defeat the Dajjal--for intercession, but He shall tell them that only the Prophet Muhammad can intercede prayers on the behalf of God. Moreover, Baha'is reject millennial fever wherein millions fear the destruction of the entire human race in an apocalypse--which by the way is Greek to mean "to reveal", as in a new Revelation of God.

Brother Madhuri, I agree but I wish to clarify the true meaning of reincarnation--which I've done on a DIR thread related to reincarnation, try looking for my comment there. By 'return' or 'reincarnation' is meant the return of particular essences and not distinct souls or individual identities to this world of flesh and blood. In fact, both the Upanishads and Suttas describe what true reincarnation is, which is wholly dissimilar with modern concepts and beliefs. Baha'i theology teaches, like the essence of the core teachings of old, that the soul eternally, progressively journeys from this universe into another through evolution of earthly qualities and attributes to divine and heavenly ones.

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

For a start there is no big black stone. So you don't even seem very clued up on the basic facts of what it is you hope to discuss.

Well I thought it was like 3 feet tall. I looked it up it's 12 in. so I stand corrected.

Your are on the Dharma DIR you are the one who needs to ask respectful questions about our faith. So I am following the rules and you are not. If I was interested in a discussion on Islam I would go over to the Islam DIR

I think if you look at the history of my comments on RF you will find me to be friend of muslims. I also think you will find that I also at least a rudimentary knowledge of Islam.

The Ka'aba is a mosque/temple/place of worship. There is a black stone set into one corner of it (actually fragments left of the stone, since it was destroyed by a Shi'a sect about 1000 years ago). Making pilgrimage to a mosque is not the same as worshipping an idol on any level, and I'm truly astounded you'd make such a claim.

All so I could give you a very good argument. Why should you bow to mecca is not God every where. I could go on and on with this. Asked the same question in different ways, But I would be wrong. Why ?... because it's your tradition to bow to Mecca. That's why you do it. Not because you believe that God is only in Mecca.

Well I bow before a statue. I don't believe that God looks like the idol. It just reminds me of God. You have your ways and I have mine.

Just as one more fun fact. Today I was at my Hindu temple and I decided to see what my son was learning in Hindu school. They were teaching him a prayer from the Koran. I feel no need to change you from what you believe.

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

For a start there is no big black stone. So you don't even seem very clued up on the basic facts of what it is you hope to discuss. The Ka'aba is a mosque/temple/place of worship. There is a black stone set into one corner of it (actually fragments left of the stone, since it was destroyed by a Shi'a sect about 1000 years ago). Making pilgrimage to a mosque is not the same as worshipping an idol on any level, and I'm truly astounded you'd make such a claim.

Please look over my post one more time.

How is it different then walking around a big black stone. Muslims tell me they don't worship it. I take them at their word. When I tell you we worship the whole why do you refuse to believe me.

I said I take you word that you are not worshiping it. It seems your only interest is to fight with Hindu's.

 

[Satsangi]

I have one question too- the Prophet was also a human- he told that the God revealed him the Koran. Why should you believe his word? After all the Prophet was also made up of earthly materials and died like any human. I am not questioning here that the Prophet was not an ordinary human; this is just a question to our Muslim friends here along their own logic. I am well aware that you do not worship the Prophet; but why even listen to him in the first place? Why believe him that he was a Prophet- just because he said so? He just appears like creation- like any other human at a first glance.

Kindly note that I am not questioning that Prophet was a "Prophet" or not, or if the Koran came from God or not. The question is how does a human comprehend something that is incomprehensible with eyes/ears/nose etc like God or his messenger?

Regards,

Regards,

 

[Satsangi]

even if the kaabah is being moved and transfered to somewhere else,we still pray faces mekah..we are not worship that kaabah

Consider this scenerio. There are 4 muslim families living just near to the Kabba in the city of Mecca itself. One family lives to the east of Kabba, second to the west of the Kabba, third to the north of Kabba and fourth to the south of Kabba. Which direction would they pray since all of them live in Mecca?

The point here is that you can argue that muslims bow towards Mecca, but Mecca is itself a defined object- just bigger in size than Kabba- that's all. But, why even bow towards a bigger man made object like Mecca?

Regards,

 

[Madhuri]

Brother Madhuri, I agree but I wish to clarify the true meaning of reincarnation--which I've done on a DIR thread related to reincarnation, try looking for my comment there. By 'return' or 'reincarnation' is meant the return of particular essences and not distinct souls or individual identities to this world of flesh and blood. In fact, both the Upanishads and Suttas describe what true reincarnation is, which is wholly dissimilar with modern concepts and beliefs. Baha'i theology teaches, like the essence of the core teachings of old, that the soul eternally, progressively journeys from this universe into another through evolution of earthly qualities and attributes to divine and heavenly ones.

Firstly, I am female

Can you offer me direct Hindu sources or quotations to confirm your perspective?
The main sources of knowledge are quite direct about reincarnation. There is no confusion in teh Bhagavadgita, for example. So which Upanishads give a different outlook? What exactly is said?

And how is the Hindu idea of reincarnation different to what you just wrote, about the soul journeying to different universes eternally? Could you elaborate?

 

[Abu Rashid]

Your are on the Dharma DIR you are the one who needs to ask respectful questions about our faith. So I am following the rules and you are not.

You are correct, and I am not, on this point. And so I am going to exit this conversation here. Feel free to open discussions on any off-topic issues which were raised in other forums, and I will certainly join.

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

You are correct, and I am not, on this point. And so I am going to exit this conversation here. Feel free to open discussions on any off-topic issues which were raised in other forums, and I will certainly join.

My goal was not to make you leave but just go easy on me.

 

[Cosmos]

Firstly, I am female

Can you offer me direct Hindu sources or quotations to confirm your perspective?
The main sources of knowledge are quite direct about reincarnation. There is no confusion in teh Bhagavadgita, for example. So which Upanishads give a different outlook? What exactly is said?

And how is the Hindu idea of reincarnation different to what you just wrote, about the soul journeying to different universes eternally? Could you elaborate?

Please forgive me, dear sister! :thud:

I have a few examples I could share, but before doing so, I'd like to clarify that the root of understanding is in how we interpret the language of former revelations from ancient times. Though the divine Manifestations of God (Avatara) are ethereal Beings relating information according to the capacity of mortals and incomparable in wisdom, that does not mean that the accurate transference of the original meanings will be preserved in society as time progresses. The Brahmans and Buddhist monks have misinterpreted teachings because man has not uniformly possessed a universal comprehension of cosmogony, which for millennia has been anthropomorphic and static.

Key examples are in:

• Brihadaranyaka-Upanishad, IV. 4.4.

Here we see the clear description of our spiritual evolution from this gross material form to a "fairer" ethereal or spiritual form that is non-corporeal in essence, as the soul is described as being able to take many forms simultaneously.

• Brihadaranyaka-Upanishad, IV. 4.3

Here we see the masterful description of the nature of soul as a caterpillar that journeys from one blade of grass to another and the metamorphic nature of Self (Soul) into a new body or existence. And it says: "(After) Him follow his knowledge, his works and his former consciousness."

• Dhammapada Verses 17-18

Read also the Cula-kammavibhanga Sutta which further emphasized from the Buddhist canon that the Buddha described a spiritual evolution not cyclically oriented to this plane of creation. Here it is important to note why the Buddha emphatically describes being condemned or blessed in "both" this world and the next with no contextual of physical reincarnation.

The point I am illustrating is that complete cognizance of "former consciousness" is not of said past lives in literal physical existences, but MENTAL STATES here and now in this very lifetime that reshape and reform our image of ourselves! People of ancient times, even the disciples, often could not comprehend the teachings or language of the Divine Educators, therefore we see cosmogonies (metaphysics) corrupted by corporeal conceptualization rather than the abstract universal truths. So, we read in the Katha-Upanishad: "Some souls enter into wombs for embodiment; others enter stationary objects according to their deeds and according to their thoughts." On the surface this type of language sounds undeniably clear and literal, however, this would only be if we read without spiritual eyes, for the symbols such as "womb", "embodiment", etc., are abstract thought relating how the womb of the mind where the wheel of karma shapes our embodiments to be selfish and animalistic or loving and spiritual, while "stationary objects" is referring to the tamas or spiritual inertia human beings can develop.

I also posted an even more in-depth response on this very issue on the thread topic of reincarnation in the Dharma DIR and I will send it to you, sister Madhuri, if I can find it tomorrow.

To quickly answer another question... yes, Baha'is accept the transcendental concepts of reincarnation but never do we express explicit belief in the matter due to its both ancient and modern understanding. Abdu'l-Baha talks about the two basic categorical concepts of reincarnation in Proclamation of Universal Peace (which is in my DIR comment) and upheld the basic affirmations in the Hindu philosophy, which He used as an example, that soul-transmigration is from the earthly plane of existence towards the spiritual or celestial plane of existence and not a retrograde in evolution. So, essentially this philosophy is not what is truly known as reincarnation today, though similar, and Baha'i scholarship contest is the original true meaning of the concept in the Dharmic/Vedic/Brahmanic religions.