No Buddhism without Hinduism

[Abu Rashid]

or the Prophet Muhammad in Hadith!

Do you have a reference for this?

 

[Cosmos]

Actually, yes, my brother, but as Hadith is difficult to research online and it would take me more time than I'd like to relate the narration--I am more than confident with your knowledge that you can find it quicker than me--so I would like to paraphrase its contents, and if you do really need me to source I will be more than glad to do this for you, or you can relate it for us.

The basic of the narration is that the Prophet Muhammad (may all life be a sacrifice unto Him) was speaking about the End Times or the Hour of Resurrection and what will happen. He describes how Jesus (Isa) will return in the latter times, defeat the Dajjal, and then the Resurrection will occur with the Prophets of God and the world's people rising, and the whole world will cry out to Jesus asking for His grace to ask God for forgiveness--but the Prophet Muhammad says that Jesus' reply will be that He will tell them that only He [Muhammad] can remiss sins in the Name of God. This is the generalization, but accurate to my memory in the essence of what was related, which was the 'return' of the Prophet Muhammad, just as many Messengers of God have spoken of their 'return'.

 

[Madhuri]

... just as many Messengers of God have spoken of their 'return'.

Sounds like reincarnation

 

[Abu Rashid]

Cosmos, I think you mean the hadith when people will come to the various prophets (pbut) on the day of judgement. That is after the world ceases to exist, so Muhammad (pbuh) will not be rising from the dead or returning, rather we will be joining him in the afterlife. Seems you've mixed that one up a little.

 

[Satsangi]

This would naturally be the response of the one who always feels the need to apply a physical form to God that can be seen and touched. Even if it isn't an actual solid object, then it has to be the particles of nitrogen, oxygen and carbon dioxide that surround us.

This is your need to connect to something because you feel so far away from God, since in reality you know him not.



Since I bow down to God, only he need accept it, so your acceptance or non-acceptance is meangingless.

And since you bow down to objects of creation, therefore you crave my acceptance since you know deep down you have not his.

A kafir is a kafir, there's no double kafir. There's kufr (rejection, covering over of the truth) and there's Islam (submission and surrender to the truth).

I think ur answer is like that of a person rigidly bound to the book of Koran and who is completely ignorant of its meaning. U are right- for me too it does not make an iota of a difference of what u think about bowing to the creation or anything else. Do U think I really care for ur "acceptance" or so-called " Islamic scholars" acceptance??.........thats the biggest joke!! My friend.....I have been fully graced by Him.........and if u want to experience first hand what the Prophet experienced in the mountain caves- submit and surrender urself to Him, just like ur religion says; stop worrying about Hinduism or other religions- we have our own relationship with Him.

Regards,

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

Neither do I, but I do think it's the only way he can conceive of people worshipping, and so he must inevitably portray Muslims as worshipping some kind of physical touchable entity. The unseen God is beyond his physical senses, and therefore must be given a form which is subject to the senses.

I have always believed that God of Islam os both personal yet with out form. I am correct ?

If he was truly at peace with it, then it would not concern him what I thought about the legitimacy of it, and especially when I didn't even mention the legitimacy of it to begin with, but merely confirmed that "yes hindus can make a god of anything, even one who shuns them". So obviously it's on his mind... bubbling to the surface.

It's not that we can make a God out of anything its that there is nothing that is not made out of the ONE God.

 

[Madhuri]

It's not that we can make a God out of anything its that there is nothing that is not made out of the ONE God.

I think a better way of saying it is that everything is part and parcel of God and though there is distinction between the Created and the Creator, neither are truly separate.

 

[Abu Rashid]

I have always believed that God of Islam os both personal yet with out form. I am correct ?

Indeed. God says he is closer to us than our own jugular vein. The problem with worshipping a form is that we would be worshipping part of God's creation rather than God. We would be worshipping something which is not deserving of our worship. Worship in Islam is not just a mundane ritual, it is a very deep spiritual connection and a means of transferring thanks and recognition to the one deserving of it. So if I gave thanks for my existence to something which had no part in creating me, then that would be ingratitude to the one who did, would it not?

It's not that we can make a God out of anything its that there is nothing that is not made out of the ONE God.

I do understand that you consider creator and creation to be one divine singularity, and I admit having held a similar view prior to embracing Islam. I now consider that not to be a correct view.

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

Indeed. God says he is closer to us than our own jugular vein. The problem with worshipping a form is that we would be worshipping part of God's creation rather than God. We would be worshipping something which is not deserving of our worship. Worship in Islam is not just a mundane ritual, it is a very deep spiritual connection and a means of transferring thanks and recognition to the one deserving of it. So if I gave thanks for my existence to something which had no part in creating me, then that would be ingratitude to the one who did, would it not?



I do understand that you consider creator and creation to be one divine singularity

And infinite God can not be understood by a finite mind SHE can only be directly experienced. So you can't understand and neither can I.

 

[Madhuri]

Indeed. God says he is closer to us than our own jugular vein. The problem with worshipping a form is that we would be worshipping part of God's creation rather than God. We would be worshipping something which is not deserving of our worship. Worship in Islam is not just a mundane ritual, it is a very deep spiritual connection and a means of transferring thanks and recognition to the one deserving of it. So if I gave thanks for my existence to something which had no part in creating me, then that would be ingratitude to the one who did, would it not?



I do understand that you consider creator and creation to be one divine singularity, and I admit having held a similar view prior to embracing Islam. I now consider that not to be a correct view.

I do understand your logic Abu, based on your religious teachings.

In our scripture God tells us that wherever we see Him, He is there. Not only do we worship God in nature and in statues and in people, we also worship God as you do. There are 3 aspects of God: Brahman, Paramatma and Bhagavan. Brahman is all pervading Spirit (consciousness). It is not personal. It is life, energy, intelligence. From Brahman everything is manifest and everything is made of this Spirit. Then there is Paramatma, which represents the Self or Soul of the universe that is situated at the core of every living entity. And Bhagavan is the personal feature, the form aspect.

So we worship God in all three aspects. We aim to regard all that exists with reverence and respect because we see that it is all God's energy. We aim to respect and revere every living being because we can see Paramatma within that living being (you will see that there is a distinction between the living entity and the Paramatma within it) and we worship the personal aspect, Bhagavan through prayer and ritualistic worship.

It really is important to stress that while we see unity between God and creation, many of us also see the distinction. A person could never say 'I am God' if they understand the scriptures.

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

Indeed. God says he is closer to us than our own jugular vein. The problem with worshipping a form is that we would be worshipping part of God's creation rather than God.

I agree It would be a problem if you worshiped clay or a picture. The Image is a philosophic explanation of the nature of God. It is the God in all beings, our own hearts, and is endemic to the very cosmos that we worship.

 

[Madhuri]

I agree It would be a problem if you worshiped clay or a picture. The Image is a philosophic explanation of the nature of God. It is the God in all beings, our own hearts, and is endemic to the very cosmos that we worship.

I think only if the intention is to worship clay. Of course that would be silly. 'Oh clay, how I love thee'- nobody takes that approach as far as I know.

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

I think only if the intention is to worship clay. Of course that would be silly. 'Oh clay, how I love thee'- nobody takes that approach as far as I know.

But a nice Tiramisu might be silly to worship but OH it tastes so Good.

 

[Madhuri]

But a nice Tiramisu might be silly to worship but OH it tastes so Good.

WHY oh why did you mention tiramisu? Now I'm suddenly starving :drool:

 

[Abu Rashid]

A person could never say 'I am God' if they understand the scriptures.

I don't see why not. If the entirety is God, then so too must be the individual.

 

[Madhuri]

I don't see why not. If the entirety is God, then so too must be the individual.

Being a part of the Whole and -being- the Whole is very different.
God is the Creator- the source. No individual can say the same about themselves.

 

[Abu Rashid]

So why worship the individual (idols) instead of the whole?

 

[Madhuri]

So why worship the individual (idols) instead of the whole?

We do worship the whole. According to Veda, God is one non-dual substance, all pervading spirit, indwelling guide and worshipful deity. When an avatar appears, they embody all three aspects of the Absolute Truth. They are not ordinary living entities but the complete whole in person.

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

So why worship the individual (idols) instead of the whole?

How is it different then walking around a big black stone. Muslims tell me they don't worship it. I take them at their word. When I tell you we worship the whole why do you refuse to believe me.

 

[Abu Rashid]

They are not ordinary living entities but the complete whole in person.

Ok, so if someone claims to be the complete whole, would you worship them?

How is it different then walking around a big black stone. Muslims tell me they don't worship it. I take them at their word.

For a start there is no big black stone. So you don't even seem very clued up on the basic facts of what it is you hope to discuss. The Ka'aba is a mosque/temple/place of worship. There is a black stone set into one corner of it (actually fragments left of the stone, since it was destroyed by a Shi'a sect about 1000 years ago). Making pilgrimage to a mosque is not the same as worshipping an idol on any level, and I'm truly astounded you'd make such a claim.