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No Buddhism without Hinduism

Wannabe Yogi

Well-Known Member
I believe that Hinduism is the oldest religion, but we are obviously both biased in this instance :)

One reason is that the Rig Veda is dated at least 10,000 years old and there is archaeological evidence of Hindu related artifacts across the world.

I just read that the French Archaeological Mission at Mehrgarh, dug up a figure that looks some what like Kali with a bindi on her fore head, it was carbon dated to 11,500 years old. This is a very long continuous culture.
 

Madhuri

RF Goddess
Staff member
Premium Member
I just read that the French Archaeological Mission at Mehrgarh, dug up a figure that looks some what like Kali with a bindi on her fore head, it was carbon dated to 11,500 years old. This is a very long continuous culture.

Wow, do you have a link?
 
I've seen this behavior before (the way Hinduism is clinging to Buddhism in this manner expressed in this thread) in my ex-boyfriends and my guy friend who are geeky who suffer from low self-esteem and insecurity issues.

Hinduism it seems, is suffering from a collective insecurity issue, as it faces the modern age with uncertainty. The uncertainty of relevance to the rest of the world outside India... the uncertainty of the growth and expansion of secularism and Christianity in India... the uncertainty of whether the younger generations will adopt the traditions and way of life... all adds up to a religion which is insecure about itself.

Hinduism - if we may refer to the many religious sects and Traditions by that name for the sake of convenience - has been bitten in the backside by Buddhism in the past before... if we recall history:

***Quote Wikipedia***
The decline of Buddhism in India, the land of its birth, occurred for a variety of reasons, and happened even as it continued to flourish beyond the frontiers of India.[1] Buddhism was established in the area of ancient Magadha and Kosala by Gautama Buddha in the 6th century BCE, in what is now modern Uttar Pradesh and Bihar.[2] Buddhism, over the next 1500 years became the region's dominant belief system, spreading across the Indian sub-continent (see History of Buddhism).

After the death of Gautama Buddha, Buddhism saw rapid expansion in its first century, especially in northern and central India.[2] The Mauryan Emperor Ashoka (304-232 BCE) and later monarchs encouraged the expansion of Buddhism into Asia through religious ambassadors.

Chinese scholars traveling through the region between the 5th and 8th centuries CE, such as Faxian, Xuanzang, I-ching, Hui-sheng, and Song Yun, began to speak of a decline of the Buddhist sangha, especially in the wake of the White Hun invasion.[2] A continuing decline occurred after the fall of the Pala dynasty in the 12th century CE, continuing with the later destruction of monasteries by Muslim conquerors.[2]

Buddhism was virtually extinct in India by the end of the 19th century [...]

Following the Mauryans, Pusyamitra Sunga is linked in legend with the persecution of Buddhists and a resurgence of a form of Hinduism (Brahmanism) that forced Buddhism outwards to Kashmir, Gandhara and Bactria. There is some doubt as to whether he did or did not persecute Buddhists actively.[18]

A Buddhist tradition holds him as having taken steps to check the spread of Buddhism as "the number one enemy of the sons of the Sakyas[19] and a most cruel persecutor of the religion".[18] The Divyavadana ascribes to him the razing of stupas and viharas built by Ashoka, the placing of a bounty of 100 dinaras upon the heads of Buddhist monks (bhiksus) and describes him as one who wanted to undo the work of Ashoka
.[20]
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decline_of_Buddhism_in_India
***End Quote***

Our Hindu friends today are very quick to cling to Buddhism, telling people Buddhism can't exist with out Hinduism... but when it comes to the past actions of this same Hindu religion against Buddhism they are silent.

Under Ashoka "Hinduism's" existence was threatened with the growth and expansion of Buddhism. When the opportunity arose after the age of Ashoka, the Hindus took full advantage of the situation and slaughters Buddhist. Of course we can't give all the credit of Buddhism extinction to Hinduism. That was eventually done by Islam. If it weren't for Islam, I believe Hinduism would have had to fight with Buddhism for its relevance and existence.

Everything was cool for the next 2000 years when Hinduism and Buddhism existed apart in different parts of the world. But this world grew smaller and smaller as the modern era passes on.

Today Buddhism - in all of its major vehicles, especially thanks to the likes and works of the Dalai Lama - has successfully "jumped" the cultural barrier into the West. In the West, Buddhism has become the fastest growing "religion" or way of life or philosophy due in part to its rationalistic approach on life. In countries like Australia it has become the 3rd or fourth largest religion.

Buddhism has also managed to make friends with the scientific community... in the sense that an Occidental mind who is scientifically inclined can see parallels in such fields as Quantum Mechanics and Zen, ect.

Add to this the fact that Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world, with Buddhism coming in second, and we see that Hinduism's old sectarian rivals have come back to haunt it in this modern age; albeit on a global and international level.

As Islam and Buddhism takes the global stage, remaining relevant, meaningful, to many different peoples, ethnicities, worldviews, and cultures... Hinduism remains isolated in India. Hinduism tried to gain a footing in the West - and globe - during the 60's-70's, but this eventually ended up being a circus of scam artist "MacGurus."

Even in its isolated home nation, it faces an unsure future with the spread of secularism, "Western culturalism," the growth of Christianity and Islam... as well as the return of Buddhism: Which has in store, great political and social implications:

"The Dalit Buddhist movement or Navaya-na (Pa-li ?????, as dubbed by certain Ambedkerites)[1] in India began with support of Sri Lankan Buddhist monks. It received an impetus with B. R. Ambedkar's call for conversion of Dalits to Buddhism in the context of a caste based society that considered them to be at the lower end of the hierarchy [...]" - Dalit Buddhist movement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The "lowest" members of the tyrannical and inhuman Hindu caste system are mass converting to Buddhism. At the moment these Dalit Buddhists, via the political party they support, already owns the largest State in India.

It doesn't surprise me with all these factors put together, that Hinduism is reaching out to hold onto Buddhism, and making such claims as Buddhism cannot exist without Hinduism. This idea that Hinduism gave birth to Buddhism is all they have left. I am proud being a Buddhist. What a Hindu believes of Buddhism to be or where they believe it came from, does not affect My Buddhism in the least in my mind and heart. I don't mind Hindus passionately asserting that Hinduism gave birth to Buddhism. Any girl with experience can detect insecurity and low self-esteem beneath the claims.
 
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Madhuri

RF Goddess
Staff member
Premium Member
You sound relaly passionate and kind of angry SugaCubez.
For the record, I think you are wrong and I think that you have a very skewered view of things. If it makes you feel better to believe that Hindus are insecure then go ahead. Ignore the fact that you are being blatanly biased and investing a lot of emotion into this.
You are the first Buddhist I have seen to express this opinion. The Buddhists i know personally and have talked to online all seem to think that Buddhism was born out of Hinduism.

The difference is that while i see this as a fact, I wouldn't care if it came to light that things were different. You, on the other hand, seem to care deeply and are here making emotional declarations and accusations. Good luck with that.
 

Satsangi

Active Member
How come supposed Hindu and Islamic invasion almost wiped out Buddhism, but Emperor Ashoka's ban plus Islamic invasion plus British invasion could not wipe out Hinduism?? The real reason is that Sanatana Dharma is graced by Lord Buddha and the Avatars themselves.

The first of the Pancha Sheela principle is "avoid killing or harming any living being". In "modern" Buddhism, how many Buddhists are vegeterians? Sanatana Dharma has more adherents who follow Pancha Sheela in essence than Buddhists; no wonder Lord Buddha graces Sanatana Dharma.

The below given link is the same link as given by Sugacubez in the above post; I encourage people to read this article directly rather than the few lines quoted by our friend and make their own judgements.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decline_of_Buddhism_in_India

Regards,
 
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How come supposed Hindu and Islamic invasion almost wiped out Buddhism, but Islamic plus British invasion could not wipe out Hinduism?? The real reason is that Sanatana Dharma is graced by Lord Buddha and the Avatars themselves.

Yes, this is a fine example of logical and rational thinking indeed. Blame it on the gods, devattas, and avatars.

The first of the Pancha Sheela principle is "avoid killing or harming any living being". In "modern" Buddhism, how many Buddhists are vegeterians? Sanatana Dharma has more adherents who follow Pancha Sheela in essence than Buddhists; no wonder Lord Buddha graces Sanatana Dharma.

Regards,
Notice that in my post I mentioned real world issues such as secularism, politics, and Dalits (who are treated like crap for being low caste) becoming Buddhist to free themselves from caste and religious tyranny and type casting under Hinduism....

And you talk about eating meat/vegetables of all things. As if what one has for dinner has any relevance in the real world.

I'm done with thread now.
 
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Satsangi

Active Member
And you talk about eating meat/vegetables of all things. As if what one has for dinner has any relevance in the real world.

I'm done with thread now.

You become what you consume. I did not give the Pancha Sheelas; Lord Buddha did. Was he ignorant of the "real world issues" that u are so knowledgeable about? Kindly tell Lord Buddha that his Panch Sheela has no relevance in the real world.

From my side , I will tell Lord Buddha that they are the only relevant principles for spiritual advancement and that I follow them to the hilt.

The reason why Buddhism fails to be a dominant religion is that the Buddhists ignored and wrongly followed Lord Buddha's teaching e.g Pancha Sheela. Lord Buddha did not talk about God; and none of his followers recognized the Avatar that Lord Buddha was. AND without recognising God; the religion becomes "DRY."

Regards,
 
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zenzero

Its only a Label
Friend Satsangi,

without recognising God; the religion becomes "DRY."
Is this mentioned in any of the scriptures??
If so kindly quote!

Besides buddhas state:
“Embrace nothing:
If you meet the Buddha, kill the Buddha.
If you meet your father, kill your father.
Only live your life as it is,
Not bound to anything.”
which means even the recognition of buddha as avatar is an attachment to be dropped on the path to enlightenment and so not recogising buddha as an avatar is by design.

Love & rgds
 

zenzero

Its only a Label
Friends and followers of DHARMA,

Personal understanding is that *Knowledge of history and geography may have utility values BUT of no consequences in as much as one's journey on the dharma path is concerned*.

Love & rgds
 

Madhuri

RF Goddess
Staff member
Premium Member
Friend Satsangi,


Is this mentioned in any of the scriptures??
If so kindly quote!

Besides buddhas state:

which means even the recognition of buddha as avatar is an attachment to be dropped on the path to enlightenment and so not recogising buddha as an avatar is by design.

Love & rgds

He is just stating a personal opinion, and one that is shared by those attracted to God concepts (obviously).
 

zenzero

Its only a Label
Friend Madhuri,

He is just stating a personal opinion, and one that is shared by those attracted to God concepts (obviously).
Dharma encompass all paths including ones that are attracted to the God concept.

Love & rgds
 

aggamon

New Member
Hinduism descended from the Ganges river and it was entirely based on the .atta the eternity in which all the souls of human beings will unite to Brahma the creator of the world and creatures.On the other hand it is really different from Buddhism.It is obvious that there are two schools in Buddhism:Theravada and Mahayana.Theravada does accept the original teachings of lord Buddha without adding,removing and modification.Of course Mahayana does modify and adjust the Dhamma with respect to their wills and intentions.So the theoretical concepts of Hinduism can easily be found in this newly reformed school.No one however systematically show that what is Hinduism.Therefore one should first try to realize what the Buddhism and what the teachings of Buddha are.
 

Madhuri

RF Goddess
Staff member
Premium Member
Hi aggamon, you asked me:

"You are not on the way to the realizing the aim and object of Buddhism and can you show in what part of Buddhism is influenced by Hinduism"

My answer is this: Gautama was born and raised in a 'Hindu' environment and culture. His life was thus influenced by Hinduism. His experiences and learning came from a Hindu environment. He reached enlightenment through meditation, a Hindu technique for reaching Realisation. What he brought to society were teachings based in concepts that people there were already familiar with such as samsara, for example. He taught against concepts in Hinduism.

Thus you can see that everything happened in a Hindu filled context. It came out of a Hindu culture and carried Dharmic concepts. Ta-da! Buddhism is born! It is different to Hinduism, yes, but it is most certainly connected on some deep levels, which is why both religions are known as Dharmic just like Judaism, Chrisitanity and Islam are considered Abrahamic despite being separate religions with separate beliefs.
 
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Wannabe Yogi

Well-Known Member
I've seen this behavior before (the way Hinduism is clinging to Buddhism in this manner expressed in this thread) in my ex-boyfriends and my guy friend who are geeky who suffer from low self-esteem and insecurity issues.

From my point of view you never pass up an opportunity to take a shot at Hinduism. What you interpret as insecurity might just as well be interpreted as defense against a argument with a blazoned dislike of Hinduism.

Chinese scholars traveling through the region between the 5th and 8th centuries CE, such as Faxian, Xuanzang, I-ching, Hui-sheng, and Song Yun, began to speak of a decline of the Buddhist sangha, especially in the wake of the White Hun invasion.[2] A continuing decline occurred after the fall of the Pala dynasty in the 12th century CE,

It is funny that you bring up these famous Chinese travelers. Because at least some of them document, Hindu kings paying for the Buddhist Universities that educated the Buddhists all over Asia.

I remember one story (Told by one of the above Chinese scholars)that the Hindu's and Buddhists were fiercely debating. Then they all went to have a meal together and were the best of friends.

There is no drought that numbers of Buddhists dropped and the numbers of Hindus went up. Still up till the Invasion of India Buddhism was a vibrant community that even invented the first universities.

continuing with the later destruction of monasteries by Muslim conquerors.[2]
Buddhism was virtually extinct in India by the end of the 19th century [...]

Now you have gotten to the real point of the destruction of Buddhism in India.

You quoted from the great Buddhist B. R. Ambedkar so you should like his view of why Buddhism died in India for a while.

"The Musalman invaders sacked the Buddhist Universities of Nalanda, Vikramshila, Jagaddala, Odantapuri to name only a few. They raised to the ground Buddhist monasteries with which the country was studded. The monks fled away in thousands to Nepal, Tibet and other places outside India. A very large number were killed outright by the Muslim commanders. How the Buddhist priesthood perished by the sword of the Muslim invaders has been recorded by the Muslim historians themselves. Summarizing the evidence relating to the slaughter of the Buddhist Monks perpetrated by the Musalman General in the course of his invasion of Bihar in 1197 AD, Mr. Vincent Smith says, "....Great quantities of plunder were obtained, and the slaughter of the 'shaven headed Brahmans', that is to say the Buddhist monks, was so thoroughly completed, that when the victor sought for someone capable of explaining the contents of the books in the libraries of the monasteries, not a living man could be found who was able to read them. 'It was discovered,' we are told, 'that the whole of that fortress and city was a college, and in the Hindi tongue they call a college Bihar.' "Such was the slaughter of the Buddhist priesthood perpetrated by the Islamic invaders. The axe was struck at the very root. For by killing the Buddhist priesthood, Islam killed Buddhism. This was the greatest disaster that befell the religion of the Buddha in India...."

Following the Mauryans, Pusyamitra Sunga is linked in legend with the persecution of Buddhists and a resurgence of a form of Hinduism (Brahmanism) that forced Buddhism outwards to Kashmir, Gandhara and Bactria. There is some doubt as to whether he did or did not persecute Buddhists actively.[18]



Pusyamitra Sunga was also a tyrant who was hated by the other Hindu Kings in the area. In fact some say that King Kharavela of Kalinga (eg modern day Orissa) forced this tyrant to submit to him. I would not be surprised if Pusyamitra Sunga hurt Buddhists in some way but there just is no hard and fast proof.

Our Hindu friends today are very quick to cling to Buddhism, telling people Buddhism can't exist with out Hinduism... but when it comes to the past actions of this same Hindu religion against Buddhism they are silent.

Thats because Hindu's feel that this history is not based in fact. That is why we are silent on this subject.

Today Buddhism - in all of its major vehicles, especially thanks to the likes and works of the Dalai Lama

The Dalai Lama has said: “When I say that Buddhism is part of Hinduism, certain people criticize me. But if I were to say that Hinduism and Buddhism are totally different, it would not be in conformity with truth.” -Who is a Hindu? – By Koenraad Elst p. 233

Buddhism has also managed to make friends with the scientific community... in the sense that an Occidental mind who is scientifically inclined can see parallels in such fields as Quantum Mechanics and Zen, ect.

Buddhism fills a gap in the life of the Americans and Europeans it is a practical faith. Buddhism is a blessing to the whole world.

Still Hinduism has also made a large impact on the intelligencia of the west.

The multiplicity is only apparent. This is the doctrine of the Upanishads. And not of the Upanishads only. The mystical experience of the union with God regularly leads to this view, unless strong prejudices stand in the West.-Erwin Schrödinger

Access to the Vedas is the greatest privilege this century may claim over all previous centuries.- Robert Oppenheimer

-In the morning I bathe my intellect in the stupendous and cosmogonal philosophy of the Bhagavad Gita in comparison with which our modern world and its literature seem puny and trivial.-Henry David Thoreau

I go into the Upanishads to ask questions-Niels Bohr

Aldous Huxley, Somerset Maugham, Christopher Isherwood all had Hindu Guru's.

Add to this the fact that Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world, with Buddhism coming in second,

Once more you have gotten your facts all mixed up. Hinduism is the second fastest growing major religion after Islam.

Religions of the world: numbers of adherents; growth rates

I do have to say that both Islams and Hindus growth rates I see as negative because of high birth rates. The world has to many people to feed them all.

The "lowest" members of the tyrannical and inhuman Hindu caste system are mass converting to Buddhism.

This we can agree on, caste discrimination is a blight on man kind. I am glad that they converted converted to Buddhism. It is such a beautiful faith.

Any girl with experience can detect insecurity and low self-esteem beneath the claims.

Maybe the question is why do you like to pick fights with people you see as insecure.
 
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Wannabe Yogi

Well-Known Member
Hinduism descended from the Ganges river and it was entirely based on the .atta the eternity in which all the souls of human beings will unite to Brahma the creator of the world and creatures.

The main river of the Vedas is the Sarasvarti river. After it dried up around 1900 bc the Ganges became the most important river.

Many times in the Vedas Brahma means Brahman or the ground of all being. Also one of the most important Hymns of the Rig Veda Nasadiya Sukta is agnostic to a creator God. Many different views are contained in the Vedas.
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2001938-post25.html

Therefore one should first try to realize what the Buddhism and what the teachings of Buddha are.

Very good advice if you are a Buddhist.
 

zenzero

Its only a Label
Friend WY,

Many times in the Vedas Brahma means Brahman or the ground of all being. Also one of the most important Hymns of the Rig Veda Nasadiya Sukta is agnostic to a creator God. Many different views are contained in the Vedas.

It is important for every human to understand to accept scriptures as pointers only and not to allow the mind to perceive those words as a fixed entity as is the nature of minds and so understanding of that very mind takes the prime position in understanding of Brahma, Logos, Avesta, Tao, Allah etc.
Well its individual karma dependent; besides it eternal, timeless.
Love & rgds
 

Satsangi

Active Member
Friend Satsangi,


Is this mentioned in any of the scriptures??
If so kindly quote!

Besides buddhas state:

which means even the recognition of buddha as avatar is an attachment to be dropped on the path to enlightenment and so not recogising buddha as an avatar is by design.

Love & rgds


To drop the recognition of Lord Buddha as an Avatar, "knowing" him as an Avatar is the first essential step. One cannot "drop" an idea if one is ignorant of it. Hence ignorance or outright rejection is not equivalent to dropping of the idea.

As I have mentioned previously, in my path and in my opinion, surrendring to God by mind, words and deeds is Mukti or enlightenment by definition. To surrender to God, one must know God. As for the Scripture support, I quote BG.

Regards,
 

zenzero

Its only a Label
Friend Satsangi,
To drop the recognition of Lord Buddha as an Avatar, "knowing" him as an Avatar is the first essential step. One cannot "drop" an idea if one is ignorant of it. Hence ignorance or outright rejection is not equivalent to dropping of the idea.
Each individual is an avatar or form of the same energy/consciousness/brahman/nothingness/etc.. Recognizing that is recognition which in turn drops the mind itself.

As I have mentioned previously, in my path and in my opinion, surrendring to God by mind, words and deeds is Mukti or enlightenment by definition. To surrender to God, one must know God.
Yes, as also mentioned earlier that each individual has that free will to choose his own path of the various paths available to be Pathless.
As for the Scripture support, I quote BG.
for remembrance kindly quote the stanza from BG which states:
without recognising God; the religion becomes "DRY."
Love & rgds
 

Satsangi

Active Member
Friend Satsangi,

Friend Zenzero,

Without God the religion become dry is my opinion and a fact to me; as I have previously stated in other threads- if I were to choose between an Avatar and anything else including "enlightenment", I would readily choose to serve the Avatar. But, such opinions, I am sure must have been expresed by many authors of the Bhakti path. The BG support mentioned above is in support of my path of surrender to God (Sarva Dharman parityajya mam ekam sharanam Vraja......). Again, in my path, each individual is not an Avatar; yes each individual is consciousness. And God is present in that consciousness and is the Swami of everything and everyone.

By the way, where is our friend "Anti religion" ; I miss him......:(

Regards,



Regards
 
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