No Buddhism without Hinduism

[SugaCubez352]

I wasn't trying to convince you of anything other than that I do not support the ideas that Hinduism is millions of years old. I can provide you with sources if you want me to, but I would like to ask if you trust astronomical dating methods.

I'm not the least bit interested in continuing this or carrying on a debate to see whose religion has the biggest penis or boobz or whatever.

I simple stated my disagreements, then I presented my list of back up. Satsangi retorted without any back up. All I would like is for him to present his back up. Not for me, but for the causal readers who pass by to figure things out on their own, rather then blinding agree that Buddhism came out of Hinduism because its a million years old or 10,000.

I'm out.

 

[Madhuri]

Ok...well if anybody is interesting in source just let me know.

 

[Cosmos]

As a Baha'i, I find it important to take note of the interconnected relationship between the Hindu and Buddhist religions. We believe a Buddha is a divine Avatar, Gautama being historically the return of Krishna and Rama before Him. Great evidence in supporting Buddhism as a pure thread of Dharmic religion is in the tradition that Siddhartha, Krishna, and Rama all hail from the Sun clan, which is an ancient symbol used to describe holy royalty. Another proof is how the Buddha Gautama incorporated Hindu language and concepts and totally revolutionized them in the way they were understood. For example, the Buddha also used His own language to describe spiritual stations that had become deified spiritual qualities and attributes, such as the arahat dwelling in brahma-loka (realm of No-Returners), which enhances the corrupted conceptions of the brahmins of the era.

Another important connection is Hinduism with the Abrahamaic tradition. A revealing aspect of history is in the theory (which I assent to) that Brahma is Abraham since the etymological and historic narration between the two are too fascinating to miss! In this we find another deified Messenger of God.

However, it's relevant to draw importance to the independence of Hinduism from Buddhism, or any religion distinguishing it apart from another. A more prudent question to ask would be, what specifically do these two particular religions offer in comparison and contrast to the requirements of the age. No doubt, I think what we'll find in research is that there is a fundamenally spiritual universality to the Dharmic religions and an essentially social aspect to them, and every religious tradition.

 

[Madhuri]

Great post Cosmos! I didn't realise your religion had that kind of recognition of Krishna and Buddha.

What are the similarities between Bramha and Abraham? I used to hear people say that there are similarities between Bramha and Jesus but I've never heard of there being links with Abraham.

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

Buddhism as developed by Siddhartha Gautama does not take part in the Hindu pantheon in spite of it being attributed to the latter as per opinion.

A few in Hinduism rejected the pantheon before Buddha.

Take the Hymn

Nasadiya Sukta

This is how it ends,

Who knows for certain? Who shall declare it here?
When was it born and when came the creation?
The Devas came later,
Who then knows whence it arose? [6]

None knows when creation has arisen;
Whether He made it or did not make it,
Who surveys it in the highest heaven,
Only who knows, or maybe even He knows not! [7]

So the Gods came after creation. Nobody knows about creation. We don't even know if God knows about creation.
Some Pundits have said that this shows the the Gods came after man!

 

[Satsangi]

Friend Sugacubez,

Sorry..... I accept that........ Hinduism came out of Buddhism and Lord Buddha was the founder of Sanatana Dharma. All the Upanishads were copied from the Buddhist scriptures.

But, I rever Lord Buddha as an Avatar; hence I would happily follow Sanatana Dharma as it was founded by him. Since Sanatana Dharma has its roots in Lord Buddha, whom I rever, I follow it to the hilt. The ahimsa, re-incarnation, karma, moksha- these concepts touch my soul and hence I follow them.

I do happen to believe that science is explained by intellect and hence is Mayic in nature as the intellect comes from Maya. Hence, I tend to follow a Sanatana Dharma which sounds "irrational".

I do not need to post back ups or scientific evidence; google is great and readers can find out on their own if interested and make their own conclusions. As for me, the teachings of an Avatar are itself the evidence. I do not tend to explain the inexplainable by the way of science.

The quotes you have provided are second to none:-

(1) Mr Fidel that you quote is indeed the greatest scholar on earth on Bhagvad Gita, of course.
(2) Also, Dr Satya Prakash U quote, mentions in the same article that 5 upanishads were there before Lord Buddha.
(3) The website kasaragodvartha goes by the "Aryan invasion principle"; but that too mentions "pre Buddhist" Upanishads.
(4) The quote from the "world renowned" Academy of evolutionary metaphysics actually is written to trash Hinduism and Buddhism as well; but that too also mentions that "karma" and re-incarnation" were borrowed from Hinduism. That web site actually supports "evolution over creation" like a rabid dog and hence trashes all religions.
(5) The essay by German Professor Glassenap, published by the Buddist publication society by the way, also mentions preBuddhists Upanishads and says that karma, re-incarnation, moksha were taken up in Buddhism as these concepts were widely prevalent before Buddhism.

Inspite of all these quotes that u have mentioned, I am one of those who really believe in the "fairy tales" like that in Tipitaka (over the "scientific evidence" presented by the above mentioned "Emeritus Scholars" like Mr Fidel) that Lord Buddha came as an Avatar many times before his Buddha Avatar and all these concepts of ahimsa, dharma, moksha, karma, reincarnation etc were given by him in previous Avatars and also the "pre Buddha" Upanishads were given by him.

You are absolutely correct that Sanatana Dharma cannot stand on its own without Lord Buddha!! He is the founder, developer and sustainer of the Sanatana Dharma either through his "Buddha" body or through other Avatars.

Best wishes on your journey........

Regards,

 

[zenzero]

Friends,
All those posts were a fine display of minds and dharma!
Happy Hunting!
Love & rgds

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

Me too. I'll go further and demand to know when exactly memes such as Ahimsa, Karma, Reincarnation, and such entered "Hinduism." I'd like to know, and see real convincing evidence,

The concept of Ahimsa can be found in the Rig Veda. Some of the hymns have Star Charts in them from that could not exists after 4600 BC. The North star (not the one we have today) in one of the Hymns stopped being the North Star in 3000 BC. The times for this scripture is being pushed back. Klaus K. Klostermair who wrote the Survey of Hinduism (the most used college text book in america on Hinduism) says the Idea of the Aryan Invasion is dead. This pushes it at least back from 1500 bc to earlier dates. This also pushes back the date's of some of the Upanishads . How old is the Vedas? 20 years ago almost all westerners would place it between 1500bc and 1000 bc. Today it is not uncommon to see the date 2500 bc or even earlier. The BBC has even went so far as calling the old therorys not only wrong but racist.

Ahimsa from the Vedas.

Protect both our species,two legged and four legged. Both food and water for their needs supply. May they with us increase in stature and strength.-Rig Veda Samhita 10.37.11

Those noble souls who practice meditation and other yogic ways, who are ever careful about all beings, who protect all animals, are the ones who are actually serious about spiritual practices.-Atharva Veda Samhita 19.48.5

I might find you more quotes from the Vedas on the subject of Reincarnation and Karma but this is just one.

Through the ripening of the fruits of his actions he does not attain any rest, like a worm caught within a whirlpool. The desire for liberation arises in Human beings at the end of many births, through the ripening of their past virtuous conduct. -Yajur Veda

Finding out what idea came about in what Time period is almost impossible. When you say the Gita was put together between 200bc and 200ad you might be correct and many scholars would agree. I just don't know. Remember that a few years ago that Krishna's city Dwarka (That all western scholars thought was a myth) was found under water and seems to be destroyed by a flood in 1500bc. Just like the Mahabhrata says it was. So was the Gita passed down as a story from that date and edited in 200 ad ? I don't think any one really knows. The only real hard and fast Date in ancient India was the date of the invasion of Alexander the Great.

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

This is a nice short site that gives both sides of the story on how old is the Vedas.

Controversies in History: Date of Rig Veda

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

It is my belief that most of the philosophic concepts that you find in medieval and modern Hinduism. You can find in the Vedas. Maybe not clearly laid out in an analytical way. Thats not what the sages of old did. They just talked about their perceptions of reality.
Believe it or not you can also find arguments against caste discrimination in the Vedas.

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

See it's fine with me if Hinduism needs to associate itself with Buddhism in saying that Buddhism came out of Hinduism. But the question is: can Hinduism stand on its own without having to use Buddhism as a crutch? Buddhism does not need or use Hinduism as a crutch you see?

I think that the beauty of both faiths can stand on their own.

 

[Madhuri]

It is my belief that most of the philosophic concepts that you find in medieval and modern Hinduism. You can find in the Vedas. Maybe not clearly laid out in an analytical way. Thats not what the sages of old did. They just talked about their perceptions of reality.
Believe it or not you can also find arguments against caste discrimination in the Vedas.

Do you know where I could find some quotes? I haven't read the older Vedas.

 

[Cosmos]

Great post Cosmos! I didn't realise your religion had that kind of recognition of Krishna and Buddha.

What are the similarities between Bramha and Abraham? I used to hear people say that there are similarities between Bramha and Jesus but I've never heard of there being links with Abraham.

Thank you for your questions, Madhuri!

There have been a number of Western scholars who have noted the connection between Brahma and Abraham, such as Voltaire and many others. Here is a great link from a high pedigreed scholar: www.hermetics.org/Abraham2.html. Analysis between the Tanakh (Old Testament Bible) in Book of Genesis perfectly correlates with narratives in Hindu scriptures concerning the deity Brahma and His family. Please make sure to read all of the material in context, however, for I personally observe many related facts but am not a believer in every detail or picture painted. It is clear that at the exact time of Abraham's advent in the world there was an influx of Hindu caste of Brahman sages invaded by the Aryans who conquered the southern lands by creating immense droughts causing mass exoduses and later adopted Indian culture and religious ideals; however, Abraham was a Sabean and not a Hindu. Also, this would be the origins (2000 BC) of said Hindu Vedanta scriptures, where I believe the source is this Manifestation of God (Abraham) Who we read civilizes the whole region and brings justice to the Middle East by subjugating several pagan kingdoms!

Another fascinating thing I've learned from reading a Baha'i scholar's insights into Buddhism was that Brahma was also a deity that symbolized a continuous lineage or manifestation of Divine Luminaries, like Hebrew Adam is related to Sumerian Adamu.

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

Do you know where I could find some quotes? I haven't read the older Vedas.

They are hard to find in one place. I use many different sources to come up with my quotes.

 

[Madhuri]

Thank you for your questions, Madhuri!

There have been a number of Western scholars who have noted the connection between Brahma and Abraham, such as Voltaire and many others. Here is a great link from a high pedigreed scholar: www.hermetics.org/Abraham2.html. Analysis between the Tanakh (Old Testament Bible) in Book of Genesis perfectly correlates with narratives in Hindu scriptures concerning the deity Brahma and His family. Please make sure to read all of the material in context, however, for I personally observe many related facts but am not a believer in every detail or picture painted. It is clear that at the exact time of Abraham's advent in the world there was an influx of Hindu caste of Brahman sages invaded by the Aryans who conquered the southern lands by creating immense droughts causing mass exoduses and later adopted Indian culture and religious ideals; however, Abraham was a Sabean and not a Hindu. Also, this would be the origins (2000 BC) of said Hindu Vedanta scriptures, where I believe the source is this Manifestation of God (Abraham) Who we read civilizes the whole region and brings justice to the Middle East by subjugating several pagan kingdoms!

Another fascinating thing I've learned from reading a Baha'i scholar's insights into Buddhism was that Brahma was also a deity that symbolized a continuous lineage or manifestation of Divine Luminaries, like Hebrew Adam is related to Sumerian Adamu.

That is a really interesting article. I just read the whole page! I am not so certain if the information is all factual but I would love to create a page and have people discuss it. I think I will do that now

 

[Cosmos]

A great deal of it is factual, however, what needs to be critiqued is a lot of the scholarly conclusions, though logical, may not be historical. For example, the theory many espouse to the point that it is to mean Abraham was a Hindu Brahman or Abrahamaic religion stems from Hindu mythology, which I believe to not be the case but rather the other way around as the source of inspiration for many of its scriptures. The names of Brahma's sons are also another testament to the linguistic and cultural influence between the Middle Eastern and South Asian worlds. And the Biblical-Hindu scriptural parallels are too obvious to ignore.

 

[Madhuri]

A great deal of it is factual, however, what needs to be critiqued is a lot of the scholarly conclusions, though logical, may not be historical. For example, the theory many espouse to the point that it is to mean Abraham was a Hindu Brahman or Abrahamaic religion stems from Hindu mythology, which I believe to not be the case but rather the other way around as the source of inspiration for many of its scriptures. The names of Brahma's sons are also another testament to the linguistic and cultural influence between the Middle Eastern and South Asian worlds. And the Biblical-Hindu scriptural parallels are too obvious to ignore.

I believe that Hinduism is the oldest religion, but we are obviously both biased in this instance

One reason is that the Rig Veda is dated at least 10,000 years old and there is archaeological evidence of Hindu related artifacts across the world.

I also do not think that Rama and Abraham are the same personality, specifically because the story of Rama is nothing like Abraham's story and because according to astronomical dating, Rama can be placed around 7000 years ago.

 

[Cosmos]

Well, the supposition is not that Rama is Abraham, though an unmistakable etymological connection. Also, though it is theorized that the Hindu religion goes back to 10,000+ years... this is a theory with minimal evidence to support the claim. Vedanta, which Hinduism stems from, is this old, but it is not an intact religious tradition. Nor are the Hindu scriptures dated to be this old, though they do in fact correspond in origin with the Advent of Abraham c. 2000 BC. It itself is not the oldest religion, but the tradition it branches is indeed some of humanity's most ancient legacies of spiritual concepts.

The reason why I am cautious to make such unfounded claims concerning the origins of Hinduism is to firstly avoid religious superiority and secondly it would not be honest to the spiritual diversity of the planet. For example, I could easily, as a black man, for example, claim with equal validity and evidence the antiquity of the ancient Egyptian religion, though there is no modern counterpart that exists today to carry these traditions as Hinduism is a vehicle of transmitting Vedanta (Dhamma). However, this would equally be dishonest to the pre-historic traditions preserved in various ways in the Indus Valley as compared to the Nile Valley.

 

[Madhuri]

Well, the supposition is not that Rama is Abraham, though an unmistakable etymological connection. Also, though it is theorized that the Hindu religion goes back to 10,000+ years... this is a theory with minimal evidence to support the claim. Vedanta, which Hinduism stems from, is this old, but it is not an intact religious tradition. Nor are the Hindu scriptures dated to be this old, though they do in fact correspond in origin with the Advent of Abraham c. 2000 BC. It itself is not the oldest religion, but the tradition it branches is indeed some of humanity's most ancient legacies of spiritual concepts.

The reason why I am cautious to make such unfounded claims concerning the origins of Hinduism is to firstly avoid religious superiority and secondly it would not be honest to the spiritual diversity of the planet. For example, I could easily, as a black man, for example, claim with equal validity and evidence the antiquity of the ancient Egyptian religion, though there is no modern counterpart that exists today to carry these traditions as Hinduism is a vehicle of transmitting Vedanta (Dhamma). However, this would equally be dishonest to the pre-historic traditions preserved in various ways in the Indus Valley as compared to the Nile Valley.

You make good points

 

[LuisDantas]

I think that it is a bit of an exageration to claim that Buddhism could not come to exist without Hinduism. Hinduism did turn out to provide a rather convenient framework for the kind of teaching that would eventually become Buddhism, for sure. But I have a hard time trying to believe that Buddhism could never come to be without Hinduism. For one thing, it is very clear that some forms of Buddhism have spread quite a long way from areas where Hinduism was well-known, and with barely any of its trapings.

The idea that Hinduism would not exist today without Buddhism sounds even more strange to me. Hinduism is an incredibly varied and well-rooted faith. Much as I value Buddhism, I don't think it has ever come any close to actually having that much influence over Hinduism. If anything, the opposite is true: some forms of Buddhism are perhaps a bit too influenced by Hinduist concepts and may indeed be difficult to tell from Hinduism proper. I hear that happens in some regions of Nepal, for instance.