No doubt in Qur'an [2.2] , but who doubt it ?

AhmadSyahir · Dec 5, 2011

Union said:
I don't think you understand me what I am talking about . Are you saying that thick book is written by companions of the Prophet and well preserved for 1400 years ?

A. Hurarirah died on about 680 AD and the Hadeeth , for example Shahih bukhari was compiled on about 850 AD , the difference between their time line was almost 170 years .Therefore those Ahadith narrated by A. Hurarirah in Bukhari were actually narrations of Bukhari , allegly put in the mouth of A. hurairah . Same case for any of the companions as the narrators of Ahadith . Their names were used allegedly there while the the real propagator of Hadeeth were some alien persons who were born 100 years after those noble compnanions .

I don't have any problem to take Hadeeth book as the story/history book . But I have problem to consider Hadeeth as the source of Islam , because 100% Islam is being found inside the Qur'an . We no need any single Hadeeth to know Islam , Qur'an is enough for us .

Yes , do more research and ask the Muhadeeths about that contradictory Hadeeth , I will wait for you till that time you will have an answer , no problem for that .

How Al-Quran is preserved for 1400 years? Are you questioning Allah? If Allah can preserved Al-Quran, why Allah can't preserved Islam.

You are too ignorant. You believe that Hadith is the source of history but disbelieve in hadith about Sunnah?
Now I make you clear. The Sunnah is from story narrated in form of Hadith. If you deny Hadith, you have denied the story and existence of Muhammad S.A.W himself.

Now I ask you, why do you believe in Islam if you don't believe that Muhammad S.A.W is exist?

Contradictory is happen because hadith is not perfect. Some hadith are fake, weak and many more. That's why it need to be researched. Lazy people like you don't like to burden yourself. Have you ever heard of contradictory in Al-Quran? Of course not. There's always an explaination. So, think before you say anything.

For example: There's a line of word in Al-Quran that literally stated that those
who commits 'Syirik' will never be forgiven but other sins will be forgiven by Allah with his will.

There's answer for this question but not an ignorant like you will think of.

This is my last challange for you. Tell me how to perform solah according to Al-Quran? Tell me if you're on the right side!!

Union · Dec 7, 2011

Dear Ahmad , I really don't see the necessity to answer you point-to-point as you already failed on two issues I asked to establish the fallacy of the Hadeeth literature :

01- Any preserved manuscript of Hadeeth from the companions of the Prophet
02- Contradiction between the Saheeh Hadeeth .

Also your logic and questioning lack the harmony of common sense , which really bother me a lot . Hence I am not going to address those flimsy questions you asked . But of course Salah is a important topic to discuss . I met your challenge some 02 years before in this same forum , and also in the same section , in 2009 . I again discussed the Salah in Qur'an in this same thread again and again . I can give you the links for them within a second , but I won't do that because I want you to study the Salah from the Qur'an . I will gradually show you the method of Salah in an interactive way so that it will force you to study Qur'an . Now tell me how many names of Salah mentioned in the Quran ?

AhmadSyahir said:
How Al-Quran is preserved for 1400 years? Are you questioning Allah? If Allah can preserved Al-Quran, why Allah can't preserved Islam.

You are too ignorant. You believe that Hadith is the source of history but disbelieve in hadith about Sunnah?
Now I make you clear. The Sunnah is from story narrated in form of Hadith. If you deny Hadith, you have denied the story and existence of Muhammad S.A.W himself.

Now I ask you, why do you believe in Islam if you don't believe that Muhammad S.A.W is exist?

Contradictory is happen because hadith is not perfect. Some hadith are fake, weak and many more. That's why it need to be researched. Lazy people like you don't like to burden yourself. Have you ever heard of contradictory in Al-Quran? Of course not. There's always an explaination. So, think before you say anything.

For example: There's a line of word in Al-Quran that literally stated that those
who commits 'Syirik' will never be forgiven but other sins will be forgiven by Allah with his will.

There's answer for this question but not an ignorant like you will think of.

This is my last challange for you. Tell me how to perform solah according to Al-Quran? Tell me if you're on the right side!!

AhmadSyahir · Dec 8, 2011

Union said:
Dear Ahmad , I really don't see the necessity to answer you point-to-point as you already failed on two issues I asked to establish the fallacy of the Hadeeth literature :

01- Any preserved manuscript of Hadeeth from the companions of the Prophet
02- Contradiction between the Saheeh Hadeeth .

Also your logic and questioning lack the harmony of common sense , which really bother me a lot . Hence I am not going to address those flimsy questions you asked . But of course Salah is a important topic to discuss . I met your challenge some 02 years before in this same forum , and also in the same section , in 2009 . I again discussed the Salah in Qur'an in this same thread again and again . I can give you the links for them within a second , but I won't do that because I want you to study the Salah from the Qur'an . I will gradually show you the method of Salah in an interactive way so that it will force you to study Qur'an . Now tell me how many names of Salah mentioned in the Quran ?

Hadith will be temporary out of discussion because of your rock head.
You have fail to show me how to perform Solah according to Al-Quran. I will not play your silly game to ruin my religion. I will reply when you give me how to perform Solah according to Al-Quran.

Union · Dec 9, 2011

AhmadSyahir said:
Hadith will be temporary out of discussion because of your rock head.
You have fail to show me how to perform Solah according to Al-Quran. I will not play your silly game to ruin my religion. I will reply when you give me how to perform Solah according to Al-Quran.

As you insist , here is a concise points of the method of Salah in the Qur'an :

01. Name and Number of Salats :

There are three numbers of Salat mentioned by name in the Quran . These are :

(a) Salat Al-Fajr (Dawn Prayer)[24:58]
(b)Salat Al-Esha (Night Prayer)[24:58]
(c)Al-Salat Al-Wusta (The Middle Prayer) [2:238]

02. Time of Salat :

(a) Fajr before sunrise when the white thread of light becomes distinguishable from the dark thread of night [2:187] / at the frst terminal of the day [11:114] .

(b) Isha prayer at the approaches of the proper darkness of the night [17:78 ] / at the last terminal of the day [11:114] .

(c) Wusta prayer at the day of assembly , at the middle of the day [62:9-10]

03. Prerequisite of Salat :

(a) This first prerequisite is the conscious intention to establish contact with God Almighty [4:43]

(b) Performing ablution by washing face and hand, wiping head and feet. [5:6]
(c) Putting clean and modest dress , as decent as possible . [7:31]

04. Direction of Prayer :

Any direction [2:142]

05. Position of the Salats :

(a) Standing (Qiam) [2:238,3:39,4:102 ] => starting of Salat [4:102]
(b) Prostration => finishing of Salat [4:102]

06. Number of Rakats :

The cycle of standing, bowing and prostrating while praising and glorifying God is traditionally called a Raka. According to the Quranic law, God did not specify any specific number of Raka to be observed in the Salat, thus it is left to the individual as per the situation , physical and mental capabilities . In congregation the leader must keep keen eyes on the average physical and mental strengths of the Muttadi [20:2,78]

07. Words in the Salat :

(a) All the words of the Salat should be from the Quran. Hence Quran should be recited while standing . [29:45,3:113]

(b) Glorifying GOD in bowing and in prostration .[7:206, 20:130, 32:15, 50:39,52:49] . Seeking forgiveness , seeking protection from Hell etc. duas can also be made in those positions [25:64-65] . Prefer to be cited as stated in the Quranic pages [e.g., 25:65]

All the words that to be recited in Salat should be for remembering/glorifying Allah (swt) only :

[20:14] "I am GOD; there is no other god beside Me. You shall worship Me alone, and observe the Salat to remember Me.

08. Tone of recitation of Salat :

The recitation of Salat shall not be too loud, nor shall be secretly; but should be maintained in an intermediate tone [17:110].

So many other issues related with Salat can be deduced from the Quran . The above discussion is just a demonstration of some important issues that Muslims arguing against Quran .

AhmadSyahir · Dec 10, 2011

Union said:
As you insist , here is a concise points of the method of Salah in the Qur'an :

01. Name and Number of Salats :

There are three numbers of Salat mentioned by name in the Quran . These are :

(a) Salat Al-Fajr (Dawn Prayer)[24:58]
(b)Salat Al-Esha (Night Prayer)[24:58]
(c)Al-Salat Al-Wusta (The Middle Prayer) [2:238]

02. Time of Salat :

(a) Fajr before sunrise when the white thread of light becomes distinguishable from the dark thread of night [2:187] / at the frst terminal of the day [11:114] .

(b) Isha prayer at the approaches of the proper darkness of the night [17:78 ] / at the last terminal of the day [11:114] .

(c) Wusta prayer at the day of assembly , at the middle of the day [62:9-10]

03. Prerequisite of Salat :

(a) This first prerequisite is the conscious intention to establish contact with God Almighty [4:43]

(b) Performing ablution by washing face and hand, wiping head and feet. [5:6]
(c) Putting clean and modest dress , as decent as possible . [7:31]

04. Direction of Prayer :

Any direction [2:142]

05. Position of the Salats :

(a) Standing (Qiam) [2:238,3:39,4:102 ] => starting of Salat [4:102]
(b) Prostration => finishing of Salat [4:102]

06. Number of Rakats :

The cycle of standing, bowing and prostrating while praising and glorifying God is traditionally called a Raka. According to the Quranic law, God did not specify any specific number of Raka to be observed in the Salat, thus it is left to the individual as per the situation , physical and mental capabilities . In congregation the leader must keep keen eyes on the average physical and mental strengths of the Muttadi [20:2,78]

07. Words in the Salat :

(a) All the words of the Salat should be from the Quran. Hence Quran should be recited while standing . [29:45,3:113]

(b) Glorifying GOD in bowing and in prostration .[7:206, 20:130, 32:15, 50:39,52:49] . Seeking forgiveness , seeking protection from Hell etc. duas can also be made in those positions [25:64-65] . Prefer to be cited as stated in the Quranic pages [e.g., 25:65]

All the words that to be recited in Salat should be for remembering/glorifying Allah (swt) only :

[20:14] "I am GOD; there is no other god beside Me. You shall worship Me alone, and observe the Salat to remember Me.

08. Tone of recitation of Salat :

The recitation of Salat shall not be too loud, nor shall be secretly; but should be maintained in an intermediate tone [17:110].

So many other issues related with Salat can be deduced from the Quran . The above discussion is just a demonstration of some important issues that Muslims arguing against Quran .

You have fail me. Answer my next sub-question:
1. How to perform solah? I want the movement in solah?
2. How to wash face,hand, head and leg?
3. Is direction mean kiblat? If kiblat, then it's stated in Al-Quran to face the
ka'bah.

Union · Dec 10, 2011

AhmadSyahir said:
You have fail me. Answer my next sub-question:
1. How to perform solah? I want the movement in solah?
2. How to wash face,hand, head and leg?
3. Is direction mean kiblat? If kiblat, then it's stated in Al-Quran to face the
ka'bah.

Your all questioned were already answered in my previous post which you thought that I failed you .

01. Ref to point 05
02. Ref to point 03(b)
03. Show me verse where it was instructed to face Kab'a while performing Salah .

AhmadSyahir · Dec 11, 2011

Union said:
Your all questioned were already answered in my previous post which you thought that I failed you .

01. Ref to point 05
02. Ref to point 03(b)
03. Show me verse where it was instructed to face Kab'a while performing Salah .

First of all, I would like to thank you for proving my point.

1. You think that you have answered me but you're wrong. You have give me the overview but you do forget something. There's no movement, sequences and lack of details. I can't even imagine the picture of solah itself. Where's sujud, ruku'?? When to sujud, ruku'?? What is sujud, ruku'?? How to sujud, ruku'?

2.I know that the recitation should be based on the quran, but which one should be recite? When it's needed to recite it? Before, in or after the solah?

3.You don't read Al-Quran i guess. Kiblat is there in the Al-Quran. Some muslim don't want to face ka'bah for kiblat in the time of Muhammad S.A.W.
Don't you read Al-Quran? Don't deny it. I have read about kiblat in Al-Quran. You really want to be the enemy of Islam huh? Against Al-Quran and Hadith?
Surah Al-Baqarah 148-149...

With this dalil of kiblat from al-quran, I assume you're a man that never read Al-Quran but pretend to read it...the end

Union · Dec 11, 2011

Firstly I will take your insulting tone as a compliment, thank you . Though you are blaming me for not reading the Quram , I wonder why you just not open the Quran and just go the verse I referred to in my previous post . well I have no problem to open the book of GOD , the Almighty , and read it again and again .

AhmadSyahir said:
First of all, I would like to thank you for proving my point.

1. You think that you have answered me but you're wrong. You have give me the overview but you do forget something. There's no movement, sequences and lack of details. I can't even imagine the picture of solah itself. Where's sujud, ruku'?? When to sujud, ruku'?? What is sujud, ruku'?? How to sujud, ruku'?

4:102 [FONT=&quot]واذا[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]كنت[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]فيهم[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]فاقمت[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]لهم[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]الصلاة[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]فلتقم[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]طائفة[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]منهم[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]معك[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]ولياخذوا[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]اسلحتهم[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]فاذا[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]سجدوا[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]فليكونوا[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]من[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]ورائكم[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]ولتات[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]طائفة[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]اخرى[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]لم[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]يصلوا[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]فليصلوا[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]معك[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]ولياخذوا[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]حذرهم[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]واسلحتهم[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]ود[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]الذين[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]كفروا[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]لو[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]تغفلون[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]عن[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]اسلحتكم[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]وامتعتكم[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]فيميلون[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]عليكم[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]ميلة[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]واحدة[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]ولاجناح[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]عليكم[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]ان[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]كان[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]بكم[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]اذى[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]من[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]مطر[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]او[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]كنتم[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]مرضى[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]ان[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]تضعوا[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]اسلحتكم[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]وخذوا[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]حذركم[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]ان[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]الله[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]اعد[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]للكافرين[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]عذابا[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]مهينا[/FONT]

[004:102] When thou (O Apostle) art with them, and standest to lead them in prayer, Let one party of them stand up (in prayer) with thee, Taking their arms with them: When they finish their prostrations, let them Take their position in the rear. And let the other party come up which hath not yet prayed - and let them pray with thee, Taking all precaution, and bearing arms: the Unbelievers wish, if ye were negligent of your arms and your baggage, to assault you in a single rush. But there is no blame on you if ye put away your arms because of the inconvenience of rain or because ye are ill; but take (every) precaution for yourselves. For the Unbelievers God hath prepared a humiliating punishment.

[FONT=&quot]The above verse says that the Salah should started with the standing (Qiam) position and when the Sujood (prostration) is done the Salah is also done .[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]3:39 فنادته[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]الملائكة[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]وهو[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]قائم[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]يصلي[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]في[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]المحراب[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]ان[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]الله[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]يبشرك[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]بيحيى[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]مصدقا[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]بكلمة[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]من[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]الله[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]وسيدا[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]وحصورا[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]ونبيا[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]من[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]الصالحين[/FONT]

[003:039] While he was standing in prayer in the chamber, the angels called unto him: "God doth give thee glad tidings of Yahya, witnessing the truth of a Word from God, and (be besides) noble, chaste, and a prophet,- of the (goodly) company of the righteous."

The above verse again confirms that standing (Qiam) is a position of the Salah .

2:238 [FONT=&quot]حافظوا[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]على[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]الصلوات[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]والصلاة[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]الوسطى[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]وقوموا[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]لله[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]قانتين[/FONT]

[002:238] Guard strictly your (habit of) prayers, especially the Middle Prayer; and stand before God in a devout .

The above mentioned verses in imperative mood and hence made it compulsory to stand in the Salah with devotion to GOD , the Almighty .

[FONT=&quot]96:9[/FONT][FONT=&quot] ارايت الذي ينهى [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]‏96:10[/FONT][FONT=&quot] عبدا اذا صلى [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]‏96:11[/FONT][FONT=&quot] ارايت ان كان على الهدى [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]‏96:12[/FONT][FONT=&quot] او امر بالتقوى [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]‏96:13[/FONT][FONT=&quot] ارايت ان كذب وتولى [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]‏96:14[/FONT][FONT=&quot] الم يعلم بان الله يرى [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]‏96:15[/FONT][FONT=&quot] كلا لئن لم ينته لنسفعا بالناصية [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]‏96:16[/FONT][FONT=&quot] ناصية كاذبة خاطئة [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]‏96:17[/FONT][FONT=&quot] فليدع ناديه [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]‏96:18[/FONT][FONT=&quot] سندع الزبانية [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]‏96:19[/FONT][FONT=&quot] كلا لاتطعه واسجد واقترب[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot][096:009] Did you (oh Muhammad, SAW), see the one who forbids, [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][096:010] The servant (of Allah) to perform salat. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][096:011] What do you think? Is he well guided? [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][096:012] And (does he) enjoin piety? [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][096:013] Or do you think he denied and turned away? [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][096:014] Does he not know that Allah watches (everything)? [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][096:015] Of course not! If he did not desist, We will surely drag him by the hair on his forehead, [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][096:016] The lying sinful lock of hair! [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][096:017] He may then call his henchmen for help. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][096:018] While, We shall summon the guardians of hell. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][096:019] No! Beware! Do not follow such a one. (Rather), fall prostrate and draw closer (to Allah).[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]In the above verses Almighty ALLAH warned against that guy who forbade to perform Salah and finally advised us not to listen to him rather we should make Sujood so that we can be closer to HIM . Therefore Sujood in another important part of Salah .[/FONT]

Now if you ask the question to an Arab that what is Sujood and Qiam , even small kid can show you physically what is it and how is it . I presume you are not an Arab , hence you think that each and every word of the Quran needed to have a drawing attached with it , otherwise the Quran is useless . That is not the case . To an English man 'eating' meaning eating and not 'sleeping' . Since when he started learn abc , he knew what eating is and how to perform it . I hope you understand this simple fact .

2.I know that the recitation should be based on the quran, but which one should be recite? When it's needed to recite it? Before, in or after the solah?

[FONT=&quot]The purpose of Salah is mentioned in the Quran very clearly in the Quran :[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
20:14 [FONT=&quot]انني[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]انا[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]الله[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]لااله[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]الا[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]انا[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]فاعبدني[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]واقم[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]الصلاة[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]لذكري[/FONT]

[020:014] "Verily, I am God: There is no god but I: So serve thou Me (only), and establish regular prayer for celebrating My praise.

Hence we need to recite verses of the Quran which in praise and glorification of ALLAH , the Exalted . Also the following verses confirms that whatever we are reciting should be inside the Salah , not outside the Salah :

17:110 [FONT=&quot]قل[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]ادعوا[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]الله[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]اوادعواالرحمن[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]ايا[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]ماتدعوا[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]فله[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]الاسماء[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]الحسنى[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]ولاتجهر[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]بصلاتك[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]ولاتخافت[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]بها[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]وابتغ[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]بين[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]ذلك[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]سبيلا[/FONT]

[017:110] Say: "Call upon God, or call upon Rahman: by whatever name ye call upon Him, (it is well): for to Him belong the Most Beautiful Names. Neither speak thy Prayer aloud, nor speak it in a low tone, but seek a middle course between."

Cont..[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

Union · Dec 11, 2011

3.You don't read Al-Quran i guess. Kiblat is there in the Al-Quran. Some muslim don't want to face ka'bah for kiblat in the time of Muhammad S.A.W.
Don't you read Al-Quran? Don't deny it. I have read about kiblat in Al-Quran. You really want to be the enemy of Islam huh? Against Al-Quran and Hadith?
Surah Al-Baqarah 148-149...

With this dalil of kiblat from al-quran, I assume you're a man that never read Al-Quran but pretend to read it...the end

Here is the two verses you mentioned to insult me that I dont read the Quran . Let us these verses :

[002:148] To each is a goal to which God turns him; then strive together (as in a race) Towards all that is good. Wheresoever ye are, God will bring you Together. For God Hath power over all things.

[002:149] From whencesoever Thou startest forth, turn Thy face in the direction of the sacred Mosque; that is indeed the truth from the Lord. And God is not unmindful of what ye do.

Now you tell me where in those two verses it is written that during performing the salah you have to face the Qiblah , e.g. to Kabah . Those verses even not remotely related with Salah . Your mind is set up with Hadeeth , not with Quran , hence you found what Hadeeth says and dont see what Quran never says .

This really proves who is really careless about the studying the Quran .

AhmadSyahir · Dec 11, 2011

Union said:
Here is the two verses you mentioned to insult me that I dont read the Quran . Let us these verses :

[002:148] To each is a goal to which God turns him; then strive together (as in a race) Towards all that is good. Wheresoever ye are, God will bring you Together. For God Hath power over all things.

[002:149] From whencesoever Thou startest forth, turn Thy face in the direction of the sacred Mosque; that is indeed the truth from the Lord. And God is not unmindful of what ye do.

Now you tell me where in those two verses it is written that during performing the salah you have to face the Qiblah , e.g. to Kabah . Those verses even not remotely related with Salah . Your mind is set up with Hadeeth , not with Quran , hence you found what Hadeeth says and dont see what Quran never says .

This really proves who is really careless about the studying the Quran .

Again, I'm a step infront of you. It mean to face the masjid Al-Haram in Makkah not the sacred mosque. It's written مسجد الحرم in Al-Quran.

In Surah Al-Baqarah:150, Allah told that "wherever you go, turn your face to Masjid Al-Haram. Wherever you're, turn your face to it."

This line is indeed about Solah. Why should you face Masjid Al-Haram wherever you go and wherever you're? Non-muslim will make fool of this sentence if it's not about Solah.

There's also a sentence in Al-Quran that told about that change of direction of Qiblat from Masjid Al-Aqsa to Ka'bah in Masjid Al-Haram. I just forgotten where it is.

Your translation of Quran is not included with Arabic Quran. For your information, the translation is not considered the same as Al-Quran. It's to make us understand the meaning of it. The original version of Al-Quran in Arabic is the real Al-Quran because it has no error of translation and it's word is very well preserved in Arabic.

Liars will never win. Believe me. Stop this nonsense right now.

AhmadSyahir · Dec 11, 2011

Union said:
Here is the two verses you mentioned to insult me that I dont read the Quran . Let us these verses :

[002:148] To each is a goal to which God turns him; then strive together (as in a race) Towards all that is good. Wheresoever ye are, God will bring you Together. For God Hath power over all things.

[002:149] From whencesoever Thou startest forth, turn Thy face in the direction of the sacred Mosque; that is indeed the truth from the Lord. And God is not unmindful of what ye do.

Now you tell me where in those two verses it is written that during performing the salah you have to face the Qiblah , e.g. to Kabah . Those verses even not remotely related with Salah . Your mind is set up with Hadeeth , not with Quran , hence you found what Hadeeth says and dont see what Quran never says .

This really proves who is really careless about the studying the Quran .

How to stand and how to Sujud? I know how to stand and I know how to Sujud. But, in what manner we should execute that movement?

How many time should we sujud and stand?

Sujud is fell on your face. Even the pagan sujud to it's God. But how is the sujud in Islam? Like the pagans? There must be a manner to execute a movement. Even rope jumping has many different variation.

What should we do after sujud? stand again or keep sujud according to the rakaat'? Do sujud determine rakaat' or Qiam determine the numbers of rakaa't?

I told you earlier. You should stop all this nonsense against the prophet. You will never win if you oppose the Creator.

Union · Dec 12, 2011

AhmadSyahir said:
Again, I'm a step infront of you. It mean to face the masjid Al-Haram in Makkah not the sacred mosque. It's written مسجد الحرم in Al-Quran.

In Surah Al-Baqarah:150, Allah told that "wherever you go, turn your face to Masjid Al-Haram. Wherever you're, turn your face to it."

This line is indeed about Solah. Why should you face Masjid Al-Haram wherever you go and wherever you're? Non-muslim will make fool of this sentence if it's not about Solah.

There's also a sentence in Al-Quran that told about that change of direction of Qiblat from Masjid Al-Aqsa to Ka'bah in Masjid Al-Haram. I just forgotten where it is.

Your translation of Quran is not included with Arabic Quran. For your information, the translation is not considered the same as Al-Quran. It's to make us understand the meaning of it. The original version of Al-Quran in Arabic is the real Al-Quran because it has no error of translation and it's word is very well preserved in Arabic.

Liars will never win. Believe me. Stop this nonsense right now.

Masjid means mosque and Harm means restricted/sacred . Hence Masjidul Harm means the sacred mosque . What is wrong with the translation , Moreover I took the translation from Yusuf Ali , who is regarded the most authentic translator of the Quran among Ahle Sunnah wa Jammah . Then I dont find your argument to be even more than silly.

In no means verse 2:148,148,150 are related with Salah . Almighty ALLAH never mentioned anything about Salah there . It the issue of qiblah was related with Salah there HE , the Exalted could have said that there , who is able to stop HIM to do that . Hence to assume them to be related with Salah is just a lie against the Quran and the author of the Quran , e.g., ALLAH , swt . Hence I am not a liar , rather you are inventing lies against ALLAH , the Almighty .

Union · Dec 12, 2011

AhmadSyahir said:
How to stand and how to Sujud? I know how to stand and I know how to Sujud. But, in what manner we should execute that movement?

How many time should we sujud and stand?

Sujud is fell on your face. Even the pagan sujud to it's God. But how is the sujud in Islam? Like the pagans? There must be a manner to execute a movement. Even rope jumping has many different variation.

What should we do after sujud? stand again or keep sujud according to the rakaat'? Do sujud determine rakaat' or Qiam determine the numbers of rakaa't?

I told you earlier. You should stop all this nonsense against the prophet. You will never win if you oppose the Creator.

Sujood is sujood , in every culture and in every religion . In Islam we do sujood for ALLAH , the Almighty ONLY while in other religion they do for other deities . Hence sujood differs in Islam mentally not physically .

The number and duration of sujood and Qiam will completely depend on the physical and mental condition of the person . GOD , the Almighty consoled us that HE, the Exalted won't pressurize us beyond our capabilities on any rituals of Islam [6:152] . Hence Salah for a young man and for a sick old man shouldn't be the same . A young girl can do 100 sujood but a pregnant girl might can perform only one . The mercy of ALLAH that HE, the Exalted left it with us according to our physical and mental condition .

AhmadSyahir · Dec 12, 2011

Union said:
Masjid means mosque and Harm means restricted/sacred . Hence Masjidul Harm means the sacred mosque . What is wrong with the translation , Moreover I took the translation from Yusuf Ali , who is regarded the most authentic translator of the Quran among Ahle Sunnah wa Jammah . Then I dont find your argument to be even more than silly.

In no means verse 2:148,148,150 are related with Salah . Almighty ALLAH never mentioned anything about Salah there . It the issue of qiblah was related with Salah there HE , the Exalted could have said that there , who is able to stop HIM to do that . Hence to assume them to be related with Salah is just a lie against the Quran and the author of the Quran , e.g., ALLAH , swt . Hence I am not a liar , rather you are inventing lies against ALLAH , the Almighty .

The reason I'm telling you that it's Masjid Al-Haram is because the commandment is to face Masjid Al-Haram where ever you're and to face Masjid Al-Haram wherever you go.

What Allah trying to explain is about Qiblat. If it's not about Solah, why should we face Masjid Al-Haram in Makkah wherever we go and wherever we are?

I also have tell you there's about Masjid Al-Aqsa being the first Qiblat before Ka'bah in Masjid Al-Haram. I just forget which line it's from.

AhmadSyahir · Dec 12, 2011

Union said:
Sujood is sujood , in every culture and in every religion . In Islam we do sujood for ALLAH , the Almighty ONLY while in other religion they do for other deities . Hence sujood differs in Islam mentally not physically .

The number and duration of sujood and Qiam will completely depend on the physical and mental condition of the person . GOD , the Almighty consoled us that HE, the Exalted won't pressurize us beyond our capabilities on any rituals of Islam [6:152] . Hence Salah for a young man and for a sick old man shouldn't be the same . A young girl can do 100 sujood but a pregnant girl might can perform only one . The mercy of ALLAH that HE, the Exalted left it with us according to our physical and mental condition .

First of all, you're inventing your own rules. There's no such rule about manner of how the Qiam and Sujood should be executed.

You talk about something that was not written. How many time should sujood be? There's no literal word that describe it. You inventing your own Quran.
THERE'S NO SINGLE LINE OF WORD THAT DESCRIBE HOW MANY SHOULD SUJOOD AND QIAM BE!!!! Again, you can't answer what was not literally written. You're inventing your own rules. Stop your nonsense now and forever!!

The matter of solah in detail was described by Rasulullah S.A.W.

Imagine if the Sahaba asking Rasulullah S.A.W: How many should Sujood be?
What will Rasulullah S.A.W answer? He answer those questions and the Sahaba record it as hadith.

Even the Christians were against homosexual. They say that it's wrong in the Bible but it's no where written in the Bible. They like to create things up. Do you want to be like them?

Union · Dec 15, 2011

AhmadSyahir said:
First of all, you're inventing your own rules. There's no such rule about manner of how the Qiam and Sujood should be executed.

You talk about something that was not written. How many time should sujood be? There's no literal word that describe it. You inventing your own Quran.
THERE'S NO SINGLE LINE OF WORD THAT DESCRIBE HOW MANY SHOULD SUJOOD AND QIAM BE!!!! Again, you can't answer what was not literally written. You're inventing your own rules. Stop your nonsense now and forever!!

The matter of solah in detail was described by Rasulullah S.A.W.

Imagine if the Sahaba asking Rasulullah S.A.W: How many should Sujood be?
What will Rasulullah S.A.W answer? He answer those questions and the Sahaba record it as hadith.

Even the Christians were against homosexual. They say that it's wrong in the Bible but it's no where written in the Bible. They like to create things up. Do you want to be like them?

To ALLAH , the Almighty the number of Sujood in Salah is not important doesn't matter how much important it appears to you . To HIM , the Exalted quality is more important than the quantity . HE, the Exalted wants devotee and dedicated sujood in Salah . Hence the number is irrelevant here . Somebody can do 100 sujood without the dedication to Almighty GOD whereas some can perform a single sujood with more devotion to HIM , the Exalted . Without a doubt, the latter one will be more preferable to ALLAH , the Exalted . That is the very reason HE, the Majestic didn't restrict any number of sujood in Salah .

Union · Dec 15, 2011

AhmadSyahir said:
The reason I'm telling you that it's Masjid Al-Haram is because the commandment is to face Masjid Al-Haram where ever you're and to face Masjid Al-Haram wherever you go.

What Allah trying to explain is about Qiblat. If it's not about Solah, why should we face Masjid Al-Haram in Makkah wherever we go and wherever we are?

I understand your hustle about the Qiblah and Al-Masjidul Haram . Your understanding is as Almighty ALLAH instructed to face Al Masjidul Haram every and anywhere we go , hence it is needed to be the instruction of the direction of Salah . But the related verses themselves are not in favor of this assumption for two reasons :

01- Those verses are not related with Salah at all . As I told you already that if this is really a part and parcel obligation of Salah , Almighty ALLAH of course could have mentioned that . Almighty ALLAH doesnt run of words nor HE , the Exalted forgets . Hence it is quite redundant to think that Almighty ALLAH did really overlook this issue to relate with Salah though Salah is one of HIS major commandment in the Quran .

02- The verses said that we should turn our faces to the direction of Masjidul Haram from any where we go . The verse expressed this in this way :
..[FONT=&quot]وحيث ماكنتم فولوا وجوهكم شطره[/FONT]. Wherever ye are, turn your faces in that direction..

Now the expression doesnt restrict this act of following Qiblah for any specific time and/or any specific place . But we know that 05 times Salawat are restricted in the frame of time and space . You cant pray anytime of the day and also the Salah might occupied your 5x1 hours = 5 hours . Rest 24-5= 19 hours you are doing something apart from Salah and station somewhere . According to the command of Almighty GOD , even in those 19 hours apart from the Salah , you should turn your face towards the Masjid-ul-Harm .

Now the ultimate question that arises here that to turn the face towards the Masjidul Harm is impossible from any place we are in any second. Did then GOD , the All-Knowing command us to do something which is impossible to do ? Of course not . The right understanding Wajh (face) in the context of the related verses can clarify the right instruction of GOD , the Exalted, InshALLAH .

You understood the the meaning Wajhu <face > as the physical face of the human body , while Almighty ALLAH gave us the indication to understand the right meaning of Wajh <face> in the context , which is something else . Verse 2.148 says :

2:148 ولكل وجهة هو موليها فاستبقوا الخيرات اين ماتكونوا يات بكم الله جميعا ان الله على كل شئ قدير

[002:148] And everyone has a goal to which he turns his whole attention. Then vie with one another in good works. Wherever you may be ALLAH will bring you all together. Surely, ALLAH has the power to do all that HE wills.

You can see that the word وجهة should be understood here as goal , aim , idea, direction of thinking , motto etc. Therefore those verses which are telling us to turn our faces towards the Al-Masjid Al-Haram , should be understood according to the presentation of the word وجهة < face> in 2:148 . Hence Almighty ALLAH really wants us to turn our goal or aim towards the Al-Masjid Al-harm . What are we going to achieve by doing this ? Again verse 2.148 explains that by doing this you will be able to do righteous and good works.

This taking us back to the history of the Al-Masjid Al-Harm , when Prophet Abraham and Ishmael built up this sanctuary by the command of Almighty GOD for the Muslims to perform good deeds . These are mentioned frequently in the Quran . few for examples :

[002:125] And (remember that) We designated the House of Worship (built by Ibraheem) to be the resort of peace, and a sanctuary for mankind. So, consider the place where Ibraheem stood to be the (sacred) place to pray. We entrusted Ibraheem and Ismail with the duty of keeping My house (clean and) pure for those who go around it (in a ritual of Tawwaf), those who confine themselves there (to worship in seclusion), and those who bow down and prostrate (before Allah).

[009:028] Oh you believers, (remember)! those who ascribe partners to Allah are really unclean. Therefore, after (the pilgrimage) this year let them not come (anywhere) near the sacred mosque (in Makkah). If you fear poverty, Allah may soon enrich you as He wills. Indeed, Allah is the most Aware, the Wisest.

[009:028] O ye who believe! Truly the Pagans are unclean; so let them not, after this year of theirs, approach the Sacred Mosque. And if ye fear poverty, soon will God enrich you, if He wills, out of His bounty, for God is All-knowing, All-wise.

[002:196] And complete the Hajj or 'umra in the service of God. But if ye are prevented (From completing it), send an offering for sacrifice, such as ye may find, and do not shave your heads until the offering reaches the place of sacrifice. And if any of you is ill, or has an ailment in his scalp, (Necessitating shaving), (He should) in compensation either fast, or feed the poor, or offer sacrifice; and when ye are in peaceful conditions (again), if any one wishes to continue the 'umra on to the hajj, He must make an offering, such as he can afford, but if he cannot afford it, He should fast three days during the hajj and seven days on his return, Making ten days in all. This is for those whose household is not in (the precincts of) the Sacred Mosque. And fear God, and know that God Is strict in punishment.

Hence , the real instruction of Almighty ALLAH is to turn our goal/attention/aim always towards the Al-Masjid Alharm so that we can keep it safe and harmless from the non-believers , perform journey for Hajj , to pray and to stay there for spiritual elevation etc..

I also have tell you there's about Masjid Al-Aqsa being the first Qiblat before Ka'bah in Masjid Al-Haram. I just forget which line it's from.

There is no mention of such first Qiblah as Masjid ul Aqsa in Qur'an . Sorry for that...

AhmadSyahir · Dec 18, 2011

Union said:
I understand your hustle about the Qiblah and Al-Masjidul Haram . Your understanding is as Almighty ALLAH instructed to face Al Masjidul Haram every and anywhere we go , hence it is needed to be the instruction of the direction of Salah . But the related verses themselves are not in favor of this assumption for two reasons :

01- Those verses are not related with Salah at all . As I told you already that if this is really a part and parcel obligation of Salah , Almighty ALLAH of course could have mentioned that . Almighty ALLAH doesnt run of words nor HE , the Exalted forgets . Hence it is quite redundant to think that Almighty ALLAH did really overlook this issue to relate with Salah though Salah is one of HIS major commandment in the Quran .

02- The verses said that we should turn our faces to the direction of Masjidul Haram from any where we go . The verse expressed this in this way :
..[FONT=&quot]وحيث ماكنتم فولوا وجوهكم شطره[/FONT]. Wherever ye are, turn your faces in that direction..

Now the expression doesnt restrict this act of following Qiblah for any specific time and/or any specific place . But we know that 05 times Salawat are restricted in the frame of time and space . You cant pray anytime of the day and also the Salah might occupied your 5x1 hours = 5 hours . Rest 24-5= 19 hours you are doing something apart from Salah and station somewhere . According to the command of Almighty GOD , even in those 19 hours apart from the Salah , you should turn your face towards the Masjid-ul-Harm .

Now the ultimate question that arises here that to turn the face towards the Masjidul Harm is impossible from any place we are in any second. Did then GOD , the All-Knowing command us to do something which is impossible to do ? Of course not . The right understanding Wajh (face) in the context of the related verses can clarify the right instruction of GOD , the Exalted, InshALLAH .

You understood the the meaning Wajhu <face > as the physical face of the human body , while Almighty ALLAH gave us the indication to understand the right meaning of Wajh <face> in the context , which is something else . Verse 2.148 says :

2:148 ولكل وجهة هو موليها فاستبقوا الخيرات اين ماتكونوا يات بكم الله جميعا ان الله على كل شئ قدير

[002:148] And everyone has a goal to which he turns his whole attention. Then vie with one another in good works. Wherever you may be ALLAH will bring you all together. Surely, ALLAH has the power to do all that HE wills.

You can see that the word وجهة should be understood here as goal , aim , idea, direction of thinking , motto etc. Therefore those verses which are telling us to turn our faces towards the Al-Masjid Al-Haram , should be understood according to the presentation of the word وجهة < face> in 2:148 . Hence Almighty ALLAH really wants us to turn our goal or aim towards the Al-Masjid Al-harm . What are we going to achieve by doing this ? Again verse 2.148 explains that by doing this you will be able to do righteous and good works.

This taking us back to the history of the Al-Masjid Al-Harm , when Prophet Abraham and Ishmael built up this sanctuary by the command of Almighty GOD for the Muslims to perform good deeds . These are mentioned frequently in the Quran . few for examples :

[002:125] And (remember that) We designated the House of Worship (built by Ibraheem) to be the resort of peace, and a sanctuary for mankind. So, consider the place where Ibraheem stood to be the (sacred) place to pray. We entrusted Ibraheem and Ismail with the duty of keeping My house (clean and) pure for those who go around it (in a ritual of Tawwaf), those who confine themselves there (to worship in seclusion), and those who bow down and prostrate (before Allah).

[009:028] Oh you believers, (remember)! those who ascribe partners to Allah are really unclean. Therefore, after (the pilgrimage) this year let them not come (anywhere) near the sacred mosque (in Makkah). If you fear poverty, Allah may soon enrich you as He wills. Indeed, Allah is the most Aware, the Wisest.

[009:028] O ye who believe! Truly the Pagans are unclean; so let them not, after this year of theirs, approach the Sacred Mosque. And if ye fear poverty, soon will God enrich you, if He wills, out of His bounty, for God is All-knowing, All-wise.

[002:196] And complete the Hajj or 'umra in the service of God. But if ye are prevented (From completing it), send an offering for sacrifice, such as ye may find, and do not shave your heads until the offering reaches the place of sacrifice. And if any of you is ill, or has an ailment in his scalp, (Necessitating shaving), (He should) in compensation either fast, or feed the poor, or offer sacrifice; and when ye are in peaceful conditions (again), if any one wishes to continue the 'umra on to the hajj, He must make an offering, such as he can afford, but if he cannot afford it, He should fast three days during the hajj and seven days on his return, Making ten days in all. This is for those whose household is not in (the precincts of) the Sacred Mosque. And fear God, and know that God Is strict in punishment.

Hence , the real instruction of Almighty ALLAH is to turn our goal/attention/aim always towards the Al-Masjid Alharm so that we can keep it safe and harmless from the non-believers , perform journey for Hajj , to pray and to stay there for spiritual elevation etc..

There is no mention of such first Qiblah as Masjid ul Aqsa in Qur'an . Sorry for that...

First of all, I'm sorry for leaving this thread for quite some times.

I'm afraid I was mistaken. It suppose to be Surah Al-Baqarah 142 and some sentence after that to testify kiblat.

Al-Baqarah:142-The foolish among the people will say, "What has turned them away from their qiblah, which they used to face?" Say, "To Allah belongs the east and the west. He guides whom He wills to a straight path."

Al-Baqarah:143-And thus we have made you a just community that you will be witnesses over the people and the Messenger will be a witness over you. And We did not make the qiblah which you used to face except that We might make evident who would follow the Messenger from who would turn back on his heels. And indeed, it is difficult except for those whom Allah has guided. And never would Allah have caused you to lose your faith. Indeed Allah is, to the people, Kind and Merciful.

It continue from Surah Al-Baqarah:144-150.

You have to admit it. You're forcing on the meaning. 'Wajh' don't even seem to mean 'face' in Surah Al-Baqarah: 142. Indeed. there's no 'Wajh' in that sentence but 'face toward'(face direction) is present. It's to be remembered that Arabic word will have different meaning according to it's sign(Up, Down and Front).

http://c00022506.cdn1.cloudfiles.rackspacecloud.com/2_142.png

There's no need to debate over this matter anymore. You have misunderstand all the words from 142-150 which exactly describe the Qiblat.

Union · Dec 18, 2011

AhmadSyahir said:
First of all, I'm sorry for leaving this thread for quite some times.

I'm afraid I was mistaken. It suppose to be Surah Al-Baqarah 142 and some sentence after that to testify kiblat.

Al-Baqarah:142-The foolish among the people will say, "What has turned them away from their qiblah, which they used to face?" Say, "To Allah belongs the east and the west. He guides whom He wills to a straight path."

Al-Baqarah:143-And thus we have made you a just community that you will be witnesses over the people and the Messenger will be a witness over you. And We did not make the qiblah which you used to face except that We might make evident who would follow the Messenger from who would turn back on his heels. And indeed, it is difficult except for those whom Allah has guided. And never would Allah have caused you to lose your faith. Indeed Allah is, to the people, Kind and Merciful.

It continue from Surah Al-Baqarah:144-150.

You have to admit it. You're forcing on the meaning. 'Wajh' don't even seem to mean 'face' in Surah Al-Baqarah: 142. Indeed. there's no 'Wajh' in that sentence but 'face toward'(face direction) is present. It's to be remembered that Arabic word will have different meaning according to it's sign(Up, Down and Front).

http://c00022506.cdn1.cloudfiles.rackspacecloud.com/2_142.png

There's no need to debate over this matter anymore. You have misunderstand all the words from 142-150 which exactly describe the Qiblat.

There is no 'Wajhoo' , no 'Al-Masjid Al-Haram' in verse in 2.142 , so what ? Qur'an gives a clear criterion in verse 2.148 , what the the meaning of 'wajhoo' in any verse where it is related to .

Varese 2.142 is talking about the new Qiblah which is 'Siratul Mustqim' (straight path ):

2:142[FONT=&quot] سيقول السفهاء من الناس ماولاهم عن قبلتهم التي كانوا عليها قل لله المشرق والمغرب يهدي من يشاء الى صراط مستقيم [/FONT]

AhmadSyahir · Dec 20, 2011

Union said:
There is no 'Wajhoo' , no 'Al-Masjid Al-Haram' in verse in 2.142 , so what ? Qur'an gives a clear criterion in verse 2.148 , what the the meaning of 'wajhoo' in any verse where it is related to .

Varese 2.142 is talking about the new Qiblah which is 'Siratul Mustqim' (straight path ):

2:142[FONT=&quot] سيقول السفهاء من الناس ماولاهم عن قبلتهم التي كانوا عليها قل لله المشرق والمغرب يهدي من يشاء الى صراط مستقيم [/FONT]

You have yourself messed up.

You have stated that 'wajh' is face. You need to remember that Arabic meaning will change with different sign. ('Wajh','Wijh' and 'Wujh'). In Surah Al-Baqarah:148, it's 'Wijh' which is basically has nothing to do with 'face' and I can prove myself by providing that there's no (Wajh,Wijh,Wujh) in verse 142 but 'face to the qiblat' is present.

Don't make this discussion harder. Please be honest and admit it if you're wrong.

He guides whom He wills to a straight path. Allah stated that He will guide whoever he wanted to the straight path. Allah doesn't stated that 'Siratul Mustaqim' is the qiblat. If you really holding up with your opinion, I have a question to ask. What is the previous qiblat?

You're being dishonest to me.

We did not make the qiblah which you used to face except that We might make evident who would follow the Messenger from who would turn back on his heels

1.Turn back on his heels. mean that this sentence is designated to muslim(the follower of Rasulullah S.A.W).

2.Evident mean that 'qiblat' is something real not metaphor for 'Straight Path'.

Admit it. You're wrong.

No doubt in Qur'an [2.2] , but who doubt it ?

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