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No Evidence for 1st Century Nazareth

fallingblood

Agnostic Theist
The Christians do not want any more excavations done regarding the Roman bath house, because they might discover more archaeological evidence supporting the conclusion that the area was a Roman military camp in the early first century, and that would completely rewrite the history of that area calling into question the stories in the New Testament gospel stories. With those stories being found not to be accurate, that would then call into question ALL of the stories about the alleged biblical Jesus.
First, there is no doubt that Jesus existed. The existence of Jesus does not rely on Nazareth. Josephus is enough to show that Jesus existed (on a side note, I am still waiting for you to respond to my thread on the subject).

Second, the vast majority of Christians don't have any idea about issues such as this. So even if the Roman bath house was shown to be from the time of Jesus, and that Nazareth was a Roman camp, or what not, it wouldn't effect the majority of Christians as they simply do not keep up with stuff like this.

Finally, if you read Biblical scholarship, much of it questions the Biblical stories. Historical Jesus research calls into question much of the accepted beliefs of various Christian sects. Yet, it really has no effect on the vast majority of Christians as they simply do not research these ideas.

This statement of yours is just ridiculous, considering that most Christians do not know about this issue at all, and really, they are not interested in it.
The Arabs do not want those type of discoveries made, because that would cut down the number of Christian tourists spending money in Nazareth.
Why? Again, most Christians simply do not know anything about this in the first place. And if they would hear about this, they most likely would reject the idea.
The Jews do not want those type of discoveries made because that would cut down the amount of money they are getting from Christians visiting Israel.
This one small thing would not prevent Christians from going to Israel. Nazareth definitely is not the major attraction there. More so, as I have already stated, most Christians simply do not keep up with modern scholarship.
Only the academic institutions searching for the truth would have any interest in discovering more information about the Roman bath house, but that would become difficult when they are refused permits to do any digs by the Israeli authorities.
Like A_E has stated multiple times, there is a business standing on the ground. If you actually read the source you gave, it states that the owner of the land was given permission to do whatever he wanted with the land. From one of the sites you linked to: This certainly ensures a very positive and complete cooperation from the Municipality of Nazareth for any project we would wish to undertake in the area.

So really, no one is denying them the ability to excavate there. It seems like you haven't even read your sources. More so, if you look at the second site you provided, it screams as a way to make money.
 

fallingblood

Agnostic Theist
This kind of stuff is what I'm talking about. I keep asking people to make up stuff that's interesting, and this to me is quality crap. I mean real quality.

In case you haven't noticed, THERE IS A BUSINESS SITTING ON TOP OF THE BATH-HOUSE. A business. You know, a building, people, owners of property. Right now, people are drawn to the business because of the nature of the site. If anything changes, THE OWNERS OF THE PROPERTY WOULD LOSE MONEY.

There's no dig there because THE OWNERS WANT MONEY.

Also, there's other digs going on in Nazareth that ARE APPROVED BY ISRAEL BECAUSE THERE ARE NO BUSINESSES ON IT. These digs HAVE PRODUCED ARCHAEOLOGICAL REPORTS.

Obviously you have no clue what an archaeological report is.

Anything in there?
It would help if they read their sources too. Or probably better yet if they didn't even post them, as it only proves to be troubling for them.

I would like to see something interesting said as well. Maybe that they can't dig there because their are zombies buried there, and the government fears that an outbreak could spread. Or maybe something with the Priory of Sion and the Grail. Maybe Leonardo da Vinci could be buried there and he has all of his secret notebooks buried with him and the government is fearful of what that could mean if someone would find them.
 

Tellurian

Active Member
First, there is no doubt that Jesus existed. The existence of Jesus does not rely on Nazareth. Josephus is enough to show that Jesus existed (on a side note, I am still waiting for you to respond to my thread on the subject).

I made several posts about the 4th century forgery redaction in the work of Josephus that tried to make it look like Josephus had written about the fictional biblical Jesus. If you missed it here is some info for you.

From Josephus on Jesus | Forgery and Fraud? | Flavius Testimonium

"Despite the best wishes of sincere believers and the erroneous claims of truculent apologists, the Testimonium Flavianum has been demonstrated continually over the centuries to be a forgery, likely interpolated by Catholic Church historian Eusebius in the fourth century. So thorough and universal has been this debunking that very few scholars of repute continued to cite the passage after the turn of the 19th century. Indeed, the TF was rarely mentioned, except to note that it was a forgery, and numerous books by a variety of authorities over a period of 200 or so years basically took it for granted that the Testimonium Flavianum in its entirety was spurious, an interpolation and a forgery. As Dr. Gordon Stein relates:

"...the vast majority of scholars since the early 1800s have said that this quotation is not by Josephus, but rather is a later Christian insertion in his works. In other words, it is a forgery, rejected by scholars."

So well understood was this fact of forgery that these numerous authorities did not spend their precious time and space rehashing the arguments against the TF's authenticity. Nevertheless, in the past few decades apologists of questionable integrity and credibility have glommed onto the TF, because this short and dubious passage represents the most "concrete" secular, non-biblical reference to a man who purportedly shook up the world. In spite of the past debunking, the debate is currently confined to those who think the TF was original to Josephus but was Christianized, and those who credulously and self-servingly accept it as "genuine" in its entirety.
"
 

godnotgod

Thou art That
So you are basing your idea on ignorance? No one here is stating that Nazareth was a large city (and you definition of city is so very wrong). We are saying that it was a village or a hamlet. And in fact, there are a variety of cases that a village is called a city both in the Bible as well as other sources.

So you may just as well accept that youre wrong. Because you are basically admitting that a hamlet or village called Nazareth existed during that time period. Your source definitely does (I have read most of Crossan and Reeds works. They do not doubt Nazareth existed during the time of Jesus.)

Just as a side note. Nazareth is also called a town in the NT. So it is not only referred to as a city, which goes to show you that the city, town, village classification was not that important.

Well, tenderfoot, it turns out that yYOU are the one that is just plain WRONG, but that is probably due to the IGNORANCE you continue to try to foist upon me, to which I continue to show you LIGHT instead. So if anyone needs to quit, it is YOU. Now pay attention:

Here 'ya go, tenderfoot: this hawk of truth is swift and flies with a still cry, a small sweetmeat for the eyes of night:
*****


Luke 2:4*And Joseph also went up from Galilee, out of the city of Nazareth, into Judaea, unto the city of David, which is called Bethlehem;

Ἀνέβη δὲ καὶ Ἰωσὴφ ἀπὸ τῆς Γαλιλαίας ἐκ πόλεως Ναζαρὲθ εἰς τὴν Ἰουδαίαν εἰς πόλιν Δαυὶδ ἥτις καλεῖται Βηθλέεμ, διὰ τὸ εἶναι αὐτὸν ἐξ οἴκου καὶ πατριᾶς Δαυίδ,

Luke 2:4 - Anebê de kai Iôsêph apo tês Galilaias ek poleôs Nazareth eis tên Ioudaian eis polin Dauid hêtis kaleitai Bêthleem, dia to einai auton ex oikou kai patrias Dauid,

&#960;&#972;&#955;&#949;&#969;&#962; = poleôs -- noun, feminine; genitive singular of <polis> city -- (the) city

&#960;&#972;&#955;&#953;&#957; = polin -- noun, feminine; accusative singular of <polis> city -- city

In Luke 24:28,
And they drew nigh unto the village whither they went and he made as though he would have gone further

&#922;&#945;&#8054; &#7972;&#947;&#947;&#953;&#963;&#945;&#957; &#949;&#7984;&#962; &#964;&#8052;&#957; &#954;&#974;&#956;&#951;&#957; &#959;&#8023; &#7952;&#960;&#959;&#961;&#949;&#973;&#959;&#957;&#964;&#959;, &#954;&#945;&#8054; &#945;&#8016;&#964;&#8056;&#962; &#960;&#961;&#959;&#963;&#949;&#960;&#959;&#953;&#942;&#963;&#945;&#964;&#959; &#960;&#959;&#961;&#961;&#974;&#964;&#949;&#961;&#959;&#957; &#960;&#959;&#961;&#949;&#973;&#949;&#963;&#952;&#945;&#953;.

he uses the word 'village'. If he understood Nazareth to be no more than a hamlet or a village, why did he use the word 'polis' to describe Nazareth in Luke 2:4? He should have used the word 'k&#333;men', as he did here, or 'agrous' instead.

&#954;&#974;&#956;&#951;&#957; = village = k&#333;men

&#7936;&#947;&#961;&#959;&#973;&#962; = agrous = hamlet, country, countryside


In Mark 1:33:

And all the city was gathered together at the door i

&#954;&#945;&#8054; &#7974;&#957; &#8005;&#955;&#951; &#7969; &#960;&#972;&#955;&#953;&#962; &#7952;&#960;&#953;&#963;&#965;&#957;&#951;&#947;&#956;&#941;&#957;&#951; &#960;&#961;&#8056;&#962; &#964;&#8052;&#957; &#952;&#973;&#961;&#945;&#957;.

the word 'polis' ( &#960;&#972;&#955;&#953;&#962;) is employed, but in Mark 6:56,

&#954;&#945;&#8054; &#8005;&#960;&#959;&#965; &#7938;&#957; &#949;&#7984;&#963;&#949;&#960;&#959;&#961;&#949;&#973;&#949;&#964;&#959; &#949;&#7984;&#962; &#954;&#974;&#956;&#945;&#962; &#7970; &#949;&#7984;&#962; &#960;&#972;&#955;&#949;&#953;&#962; &#7970; &#949;&#7984;&#962; &#7936;&#947;&#961;&#959;&#973;&#962;, &#7952;&#957; &#964;&#945;&#8150;&#962; &#7936;&#947;&#959;&#961;&#945;&#8150;&#962; &#7952;&#964;&#943;&#952;&#949;&#963;&#945;&#957; &#964;&#959;&#8058;&#962; &#7936;&#963;&#952;&#949;&#957;&#959;&#8166;&#957;&#964;&#945;&#962; &#954;&#945;&#8054; &#960;&#945;&#961;&#949;&#954;&#940;&#955;&#959;&#965;&#957; &#945;&#8016;&#964;&#8056;&#957; &#7989;&#957;&#945; &#954;&#8048;&#957; &#964;&#959;&#8166; &#954;&#961;&#945;&#963;&#960;&#941;&#948;&#959;&#965; &#964;&#959;&#8166; &#7985;&#956;&#945;&#964;&#943;&#959;&#965; &#945;&#8016;&#964;&#959;&#8166; &#7941;&#968;&#969;&#957;&#964;&#945;&#953;· &#954;&#945;&#8054; &#8005;&#963;&#959;&#953; &#7938;&#957; &#7973;&#968;&#945;&#957;&#964;&#959; &#945;&#8016;&#964;&#959;&#8166; &#7952;&#963;&#8180;&#950;&#959;&#957;&#964;&#959;.

And whithersoever __ he entered into villages or cities or country they laid the sick in the streets and besought him that they might touch if it were but the border of his garment and as many as touched him were made whole

he uses the words &#7936;&#947;&#961;&#959;&#973;&#962; ('agrous') for 'hamlet' or 'countryside', &#954;&#974;&#956;&#945;&#962; (k&#333;mas) for 'village', and &#960;&#972;&#955;&#949;&#953;&#962; (poleis) for 'cities', so it is obvious from just this one verse that he knew and understood the difference between all three entities.

[note: 'agrous' is translated as either 'hamlet' or 'country' or 'countryside', as well as several other words.}







Where 'town of Nazareth' is referred to as in Matt 2:23, Luke 2:4, Luke 1:26, Luke 2:39, either 'polin' or 'pole&#333;s', are used; never 'k&#333;men' or 'agrous'.

A hamlet is usually a rural settlement which is too small to be considered a village, though sometimes the word is used for a different sort of community.... Historically, when a hamlet became large enough to justify building a church [or perhaps a synagogue?], it was then classified as a village. One example of a hamlet is a small cluster of houses surrounding a mill.

[What has been uncovered in Nazareth would qualify the area as a hamlet or farming community, but that is all.]


Wikipedia
*****

town = poli =

city = polis =

'polis' means a cluster of villages rather than a single township in a particular locale. 'Nazareth' may have referred to a cluster of villages in northern Galilee, rather than a single 'city'. 'Polis' also means 'city-state'

*****


The city-state, or polis, became the dominant governmental structure of Greece.
1. The polis was small in size; Athens was the largest, yet only small in geographic size.
2. The population remained relatively low; Athens at its height had only 40,000 people.
3. Each polis had an akropolis, or high point, where the governmental and religious buildings were constructed.
4. The market-place, or agora, was the meeting-place for most of the people and was the economic centre of the polis.
5. The surrounding farmland supported the large population inside the walled cities.

HSC Online

From the information above, and that found here:

A comparative study of thirty city ... - Mogens Herman Hansen, Københavns universitet. Polis centret - Google Books

regarding what consttutes a 'polis', it is clear that there was no 'polis' called 'Nazareth', unless the reference was possibly to a collection of hamlets in Northern Galilee.

As for Crossan and Reed, as I stated, they speak of a village of Nazareth AS IF it existed. When they speak of houses and how they were built, they are discussing how they MAY have been built. To date, only ONE house has been found. ONE HOUSE along with farm implements, wine presses, etc, do not constitute a hamlet, a village, a town, nor a city.
 
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godnotgod

Thou art That


I have noticed you have a pattern of attacking people when you have nothing intelligent to say about the topic being discussed. Your ad hominems always let me know that you are unable to refute my statements.

I also noticed exactly the very same thing.
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
It would help if they read their sources too. Or probably better yet if they didn't even post them, as it only proves to be troubling for them.

I would like to see something interesting said as well. Maybe that they can't dig there because their are zombies buried there, and the government fears that an outbreak could spread. Or maybe something with the Priory of Sion and the Grail. Maybe Leonardo da Vinci could be buried there and he has all of his secret notebooks buried with him and the government is fearful of what that could mean if someone would find them.

haha

Maybe some spam will prove you wrong, tenderfoot.:D
 
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angellous_evangellous

Guest
Here 'ya go, tenderfoot: this hawk of truth is swift and flies with a still cry, a small sweetmeat for the eyes of night:

It's one thing to mindlessly spam crap, but for whatever reason it's really heartbreaking to me when people make up stuff about the Greek.

I would correct you but it would be useless.
 
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angellous_evangellous

Guest
So really, no one is denying them the ability to excavate there. It seems like you haven't even read your sources. More so, if you look at the second site you provided, it screams as a way to make money.

It's a tourist attraction.

Unfortunately, I think that when certain morons are told a number like "the bath house is Roman, dating from 150BCE to 400CE," they hear "first century CE." I can't help but wonder what the differences are between Turkish and Roman baths. But - and I say this for people who may be slow - there are no detailed studies that prove anything about it, and there won't be for the forseeable future.

So we basically have an owner of a tourist attraction who has a "feeling" that the stuff beneath his gift shop is a bath dating to the period of Jesus.

If that doesn't sell trinkets, he needs a new business.

Gulliable suckers. One born every minute. I just wish I could make money off of them, too.
 

Tellurian

Active Member
It's a tourist attraction.

Unfortunately, I think that when certain morons are told a number like "the bath house is Roman, dating from 150BCE to 400CE," they hear "first century CE." I can't help but wonder what the differences are between Turkish and Roman baths. But - and I say this for people who may be slow - there are no detailed studies that prove anything about it, and there won't be for the forseeable future.

So we basically have an owner of a tourist attraction who has a "feeling" that the stuff beneath his gift shop is a bath dating to the period of Jesus.

If that doesn't sell trinkets, he needs a new business.

Gulliable suckers. One born every minute. I just wish I could make money off of them, too.

Either you did not read the links, or you did not understand what was written in the links. It has been the archaeologists looking at the site who have found evidence to identify it as being Roman from the early first century.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
Either you did not read the links, or you did not understand what was written in the links. It has been the archaeologists looking at the site who have found evidence to identify it as being Roman from the early first century.

but that was a guess not based on a real excavation or report.

150 -400 is exactly what I came to after my investigation which holds as much historicity as the work already done.
 
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angellous_evangellous

Guest
Either you did not read the links, or you did not understand what was written in the links. It has been the archaeologists looking at the site who have found evidence to identify it as being Roman from the early first century.

Report?

Damn I wish I were selling crap on top of this site. I could make a fortune from gulliable people like this.
 

jtartar

Well-Known Member
[youtube]WSzQC1zKesU[/youtube]
James Randi Speaks: Questioning the Bible - YouTube

See here for Rene Salm's website re: the myth of Nazareth:The truth about Nazareth

Jimmy,
I keep wondering just how many times will people dispute what the Bible says, when every time they must later eat crow. Remember, until there was disagreement as to whether David was really a person of history, or just made up in the Bible.
Nazareth was probably called En Nasira, Nazerat, and was a small city in Galilee, about 60 miles North of Jerusalem, and about half way between the southern tip if the sea of Galilee and the Mediterranean Sea.
It is comical to me that Gabriel, God's angel did not know of the town since he went there to announce to Mary that she was to have a son, and was to call his name Jesus, Luke 1:26,27, 28-33. Imagine how embarrassed Gabriel was. Later after Jesus was born Joseph took him to Egypt, because of Herod giving the order to kill all male babies under two years old. After returning from Egypt, after Herod's death they went to Nazareth to live. Jesus and his parents lived in Nazareth, Jesus then came to be called The Nazarene. Nathanael must have heard of Nazareth, because he said, Can anything good come out of Nazareth?? John 1:45,46.
I bet Pontius Pilate was berated, because he was a Roman, and did not even know there was no Nazareth. Pilate had written on the stake of Jesus, " Jesus the Nazarene, the King of the Jews", John 19:19.
In one prophecy Isaiah wrote about a SPROUT that was to come, the Messiah, Isa 11:1. The term Nazareth actually means Sprout Town. A coincidence?? I doubt it.
Nazareth was a small city of very little importance at the time of Jesus, so it is not suprising that the name was not written very often.
Luke was a historian without equal, which even historians today agree, and as he said, he traced all things he wrote about with accuracy, Luke 1:1-4. Very few people had the bravery to record the events that Luke recorded, because it was a death penalty tp put the wrong title for many the people Luke wrote about, Luke 3:1,2. Many others. There is absolutely no reason to believe that Jesus did not live most of his young life in Nazareth, along with Joseph and Mary, and his brothers and sisters, Mark 6:3.
 
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angellous_evangellous

Guest
Luke was a historian without equal, which even historians today agree, and as he said, he traced all things he wrote about with accuracy, Luke 1:1-4.

Name a few that aren't Christian apologists.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
I keep wondering just how many times will people dispute what the Bible says, when every time they must later eat crow.


Its probably the same crow that states. I think someone spit that crow out for foul taste.

the earth is 6000 years old by lineage
no different languages before the tower of babel
earth created in one day
sun created in one day
woman from a rib
hebrews as a culture older then 1250BC
800 year old men
habitated planet in 1 day
global flood


and on and on and on and on.
 

Tellurian

Active Member
but that was a guess not based on a real excavation or report.

150 -400 is exactly what I came to after my investigation which holds as much historicity as the work already done.

What evidence did you use in your investigation to reach that conclusion? What evidence do you have that the Romans occupied that area after the bar Kokhba revolt? Isn't there an archaeological relic tablet that was found saying that Jewish families were moved to that area after the bar Kokhba revolt failed? Would those Jewish families have built a large Roman bath of the type used by the Roman military?
 

fallingblood

Agnostic Theist
I made several posts about the 4th century forgery redaction in the work of Josephus that tried to make it look like Josephus had written about the fictional biblical Jesus. If you missed it here is some info for you.
Again, I cover it all in my thread here: http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/general-religious-debates/107541-josephus-jesus.html. You have done everything but actually address the points in that thread. Maybe instead of just running around in circles, making excuses, you could just finally address the actual thread (which you actually stated you would do).
 

godnotgod

Thou art That
It's one thing to mindlessly spam crap, but for whatever reason it's really heartbreaking to me when people make up stuff about the Greek.

I would correct you but it would be useless.

The information I posted comes from biblos.com. If you are going to attempt to 'correct' me, then you will be correcting them.

You, of course, are far more learned in Greek and Biblical studies than they. I am sure they can use your assistance to help them understand the errors of their ways. :biglaugh:
 

outhouse

Atheistically
The information I posted comes from biblos.com. If you are going to attempt to 'correct' me, then you will be correcting them.

You, of course, are far more learned in Greek and Biblical studies than they. I am sure they can use your assistance to help them understand the errors of their ways. :biglaugh:

actually he is

they deal with scripture interpretation NOT historicity of anything :facepalm:
 
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