No Evidence for Speciation?

[Heathen Hammer]

I dunno, I just have a hard time getting over the fact that you are angry at people showing you what the truth is.

 

[Pegg]

But your conscious conclusion isn't based on anything related. it's based on wishful thinking.

Education isn't forcing something on you. These are the facts. Taking umbrage at being mistaken about something isn't going to help you at all.

actually it is based on the educated opinions and research of the scientists who are on the opposing side of the fence. they dont all believe evolution happens in the way the theory states. And there is much evidence contradicting many aspects of it.

So it isnt wishful thinking at all. and if you think that a regular lay person is not capable of basing their decision on reason by looking at both sides, then you are much mistaken.

 

[Heathen Hammer]

i've said it many times... crossbreed an ape/chimp with a human and show us the offspring.
if you can get offspring (even a hybrid), that would prove that we are of the same genesis 'kind'...then i will accept it. That would be rock solid evidence .

And no-one finds it odd that your holy book says beastiality is an abomination - but here you are demanding it be done to prove something, that's already self-evident.

 

[johnhanks]

... but what i dont accept is that humans are included. Lining up a group of ape skulls and putting a human skull at the end of the line doesnt convince me that it is legitimate evidence.

Anyone who calls a Homo erectus or Homo habilis cranium an "ape skull" either knows nothing about apes (entirely possible), or (more probably) has determinedly avoided investigating the facts.

Pegg, you have understandably objected to being treated like a "dumb ignorant fool"; but in this area you are doing little to help yourself.

 

[Heathen Hammer]

actually it is based on the educated opinions and research of the scientists who are on the opposing side of the fence. they dont all believe evolution happens in the way the theory states. And there is much evidence contradicting many aspects of it.

So it isnt wishful thinking at all. and if you think that a regular lay person is not capable of basing their decision on reason by looking at both sides, then you are much mistaken.

Those people are not scientists in the field in question, they are essentially laymen just like you, fearful that their old ways are threatened.

There is no evidence in contradiction.

It's NOTHING but wishful thinking. This phenomenon is not taken seriously outside of the US, where it's egged on solely by religious zealots and conspiracy theory nuts.

Please don't join either of those groups.

 

[Pegg]

I dunno, I just have a hard time getting over the fact that you are angry at people showing you what the truth is.

lol

what's there to be angry about? Some people believe it, others dont. I think you need to accept that not everyone is going to believe it just as some people dont accept a creator.

 

[Pegg]

Those people are not scientists in the field in question, they are essentially laymen just like you, fearful that their old ways are threatened.

thats exactly what evolutionists do when a researcher/biologist/palentologist or geologist disagree and form a different opinion...'they are not real scientists'

thats laughable.

 

[Heathen Hammer]

lol

what's there to be angry about?

You tell me, you're the one who is upset about being wrong.

 

[Heathen Hammer]

thats exactly what evolutionists do when a researcher/biologist/palentologist or geologist disagree and form a different opinion...'they are not real scientists'

thats laughable.

But it's also true. Somebody with a PhD in Engineering, making such a statement, is as accurate and authorized to make an informed decision as a country housewife.

What's laughable is that you believe them.

In any case you're speaking in anecdotes. Which is not evidence. Are you going to present that list of 700 'scientists' who promote ID or something?

Just the number of scientists, in actual related fields named 'Steve', outnumber your charlatans. Not counting all the rest.

these differing opinions are simply wrong. Because they cannot account for all the evidence for, in their 'new' theories which support ID.

In order to throw out evolution, the new theory must still account for ALL the evidence; it must make sense of what already is.

 

[Pegg]

And no-one finds it odd that your holy book says beastiality is an abomination - but here you are demanding it be done to prove something, that's already self-evident.

if we are all of the same family, then there should be nothing unethical about it. Do you feel its unethical?

if you do, then perhaps its your human morality which tells you that... some would say our morality was put in us by the Creator. Do you have another explanation for it?

 

[Pegg]

You tell me, you're the one who is upset about being wrong.

believe me when i say, if i was angry, i wouldn't be discussing it

 

[Heathen Hammer]

believe me when i say, if i was angry, i wouldn't be discussing it

But you are angry enough to deny facts. That's enough of a tiff as it is. if you were enraged enough to rage-quit, I'd recommend less coffee for you.

 

[johnhanks]

if we are all of the same family, then there should be nothing unethical about it.

WHAT? Bestiality not a problem as long as it's with members of the same family? Why stop there - we're in the same class as donkeys, why not include them too? Hey, enough of this prissy mammalism, let's show a bit of chordate solidarity here and screw anything with a backbone!

Pegg, you cannot be serious.

if you do, then perhaps its your human morality which tells you that... some would say our morality was put in us by the Creator. Do you have another explanation for it?

Yes, there's a good evolutionary explanation for morality.

 

[Pegg]

But you are angry enough to deny facts. That's enough of a tiff as it is. if you were enraged enough to rage-quit, I'd recommend less coffee for you.

lol, ok i see. So if researcher presents information contrary, or express doubts, about a certain aspect of evolution, they are not real scientists but laymen....

and if any lay person is dubious and doubtful of supposed 'facts' of evolution, they are enraged.

You are well trained.

 

[Pegg]

WHAT? Bestiality not a problem as long as it's with members of the same family? Why stop there - we're in the same class as donkeys, why not include them too? Hey, enough of this prissy mammalism, let's show a bit of chordate solidarity here and screw anything with a backbone!

Pegg, you cannot be serious.
Yes, there's a good evolutionary explanation for morality.

so you think it would immoral or unethical....hmmm telling.

 

[Heathen Hammer]

lol, ok i see. So if researcher presents information contrary, or express doubts, about a certain aspect of evolution, they are not real scientists but laymen....

and if any lay person is dubious and doubtful of supposed 'facts' of evolution, they are enraged.

You are well trained.

What information, specifically?

Does this information ALSO mesh with allllll the other evidence? Also, what is 'information'... evidence? A different theory based on the same evidence? Or on the new evidence?

Again, your anecdotes are useless. Be specific. Or concede you're just determined to ignore reality to keep your faith alive. Because that's all this really is.

You keep alluding to new information, new evidence, actual scientists in rational disagreement.. but nothing of any sort has been presented. Perhaps you are boasting of something that doesn't exist.

[You're the one who is well-trained, Im afraid.]

 

[johnhanks]

so you think it would immoral or unethical....hmmm telling.

I would find human/chimp hybridisation ethically questionable. And you're telling us you wouldn't? Telling, indeed.

 

[Zoe Doidge]

There was in fact such an experiment done to see if a Humanzee could be created back in the 1920's. Ilya Ivanovich Ivanov tried to impregnate female chimps with human male sperm, but failed. That's not to say it can't be done, his attempts were very limited due to various problems he had finding suitable chimps, but the attempt has been made.

I suspect it would be possible, the coding DNA of chimps is virtually identical to us. It'd likely come down to luck more than anything though. If it is possible, it would raise the interesting question of whether us and chimps should be considered the same species.

 

[Pegg]

What information, specifically?

Does this information ALSO mesh with allllll the other evidence? Also, what is 'information'... evidence? A different theory based on the same evidence? Or on the new evidence?

Again, your anecdotes are useless. Be specific. Or concede you're just determined to ignore reality to keep your faith alive. Because that's all this really is.

You keep alluding to new information, new evidence, actual scientists in rational disagreement.. but nothing of any sort has been presented. Perhaps you are boasting of something that doesn't exist.

[You're the one who is well-trained, Im afraid.]

this calls for a new thread, yes?

 

[Heathen Hammer]

Not at all; we seem to be in an evidence thread. But, whatever your fancy.