No FACTS = NO god !

[Storm]

Since there is nothing of substance that can be measured or evaluated about "god," upon what does one base an opinion regarding the matter?

Personal experience. There's more to life than can be poured into a beaker.

The atheist is not "anti-god" in the sense that people are anti-Bush or anti-Obama any more than they are anti-Santa because there is nothing about god (in and of the imagined entity itself) to oppose.

Generally speaking, you're correct. However, I have known some exceptions to the rule.

and therefore isn't it more reasonable to conclude that since there is nothing to measure that there is no way to justify the idea that god exists, let alone what he may or may not think or want or command?

I've said for years that, in the absence of personal experience, agnosticism (or weak atheism) is the only reasonable stance.

When someone claims to be an atheist, the practical upshot is that they are anti-religion,

I don't find this to be true. Even the mad-at-God "atheists" I've known irl are content to live and let live. There are, again, exceptions to the rule.

 

[Cobblestones]

Originally Posted by slave2six
Since there is nothing of substance that can be measured or evaluated about "god," upon what does one base an opinion regarding the matter?

Personal experience. There's more to life than can be poured into a beaker.

What do you mean by this? Do you mean that all the experiences of life lead you to conclude this or that? Or do you mean the kind of personal experience that two people have with one another? I know Bill as my best friend. Annie knows him as her lover. Both types of knowing are valid but they are also predicated on Bill actually interacting with each of us.

 

[Azakel]

What do you mean "Try again?" Didn't you just prove Cobblestone's point? Of course, I haven't seen any Norse religions being defended here but I suppose that the arguments would be just as valid as any other religion's.

Really I don't know why I type "try again", I might have been thinking of something else.
Not sure if I prove his point....

 

[Bloomdido]

I get it! It's kind of like before a particular chemical element was proven to exist, it didn't exist! Before any evidence for prehistoric life was discovered, it wasn't there. It was only after the facts came to light that what is now known to be true was actually true. As long as something can't be proven to exist, it doesn't exist. That is brilliant, Einstein!

What amazing logic. I know that (insert fantasy here) exists and just because we have no evidence to support my claim, it doesn't matter. We just haven't discovered it yet. Astounding.

 

[Bloomdido]

It would seem that religious people are more stupid than atheists. Having food in one's belly is a contributary factor but America bucks that trend. Look here. From my limited research, I would say that intelligence and religion are not good bed fellows, however intelligence and the exploitation of dumb religious people (and parting them from their money) may have a strong correlation. Just because someone preaches god, don't assume that they believe it. There may be something in it for them.

 

[Riverwolf]

It would seem that religious people are more stupid than atheists. Having food in one's belly is a contributary factor but America bucks that trend. Look here. From my limited research, I would say that intelligence and religion are not good bed fellows, however intelligence and the exploitation of dumb religious people (and parting them from their money) may have a strong correlation. Just because someone preaches god, don't assume that they believe it. There may be something in it for them.

So you look at one website and immediately draw a very rash conclusion?

Intelligence and religion are perfectly compatible. I think you're confusing religion with superstition. I think it's important for you to understand the difference.

Religion is about Unity. After all, the term does come from a word that literally means "union." Whether this means unity with other people or with God, in my opinion, is not important.

Superstition is the literal belief in unsupported things.

Often, the two go hand in hand, and so they have become confused. But you don't need superstition to have religion, and you don't need religion to have superstition.

Now, many "religious" teachers have, in fact, had selfish motives for preaching their religions. (L. Ron Hubbard comes to mind.) But just because some have doesn't mean all have.

 

[Bloomdido]

Don't you just love Google?


Paraphrased and summarized from The Effect of Intelligence on Religious Faith, Burnham P. Beckwith, Free Inquiry, Spring 1986:
1. Thomas Howells, 1927
Study of 461 students showed religiously conversative students "are, in general, relatively inferior in intellectual ability."
2. Hilding Carlsojn, 1933
Study of 215 students showed that "there is a tendency for the more intelligent undergraduate to be sympathetic toward ... atheism."
3. Abraham Franzblau, 1934
Confirming Howells and Carlson, tested 354 Jewish children, 10-16. Negative correlation between religiosity and Terman intelligence test.
4. Thomas Symington, 1935
Tested 400 young people in colleges and church groups. He reported, "there is a constant positive relation in all the groups between liberal religious thinking and mental ability...There is also a constant positive relation between liberal scores and intelligence..."
5. Vernon Jones, 1938
Tested 381 stydents, concluding "a slight tendency for intelligence and liberal attitudes to go together."
6. A. R. Gilliland, 1940
At variance with all other studies, found "little or no relationship between intelligence and attitude toward god."
7. Donald Gragg, 1942
Reported an inverse correlation between 100 ACE freshman test scores and Thurstone "reality of god" scores.
8. Brown and Love, 1951
At U. of Denver, tested 613 male and female students. Mean test scores of non-believers = 119, believers = 100. Percentile NBs = 80, BBs = 50. Their findings "strongly corroborate those of Howells."
9. Michael Argyle, 1958
Concluded that "although intelligent children grasp religious concepts earlier, they are also the first to doubt the truth of religion, and intelligent students are much less likely to accept orthodox beliefs."
10. Jeffrey Hadden, 1963
Found no correlation between intelligence and grades. This was an anomalous finding, since GPA corresponds closely with intelligence. Other factors may have influenced the results at the U. of Wisconsin.
11. Young, Dustin and Holtzman, 1966
Average religiosity decreased as GPA rose.
12. James Trent, 1967
Polled 1400 college seniors. Found little difference, but high-ability students in his sample group were over-represented.
13. C. Plant and E. Minium, 1967
The more intelligent students were less religious, both before entering college and after 2 years of college.
14. Robert Wuthnow, 1978
Of 532 students, 37% of christians, 58% of apostates, and 53 percent of non-religious scored above average on SATs.
15. Hastings and Hoge, 1967, 1974
Polled 200 college students and found no significant correlations.
16. Norman Poythress, 1975
Mean SATs for strongly antireligious (1148), moderately anti-religious (1119), slightly antireligious (1108), and religious (1022). 17. Wiebe and Fleck, 1980
Studied 158 male and female Canadian university students. The reported "nonreligious S's tended to be strongly intelligent" and "more intelligent than religious S's.

There's lots more here.

 

[Riverwolf]

Don't you just love Google?


Paraphrased and summarized from The Effect of Intelligence on Religious Faith, Burnham P. Beckwith, Free Inquiry, Spring 1986:
1. Thomas Howells, 1927
Study of 461 students showed religiously conversative students "are, in general, relatively inferior in intellectual ability."
2. Hilding Carlsojn, 1933
Study of 215 students showed that "there is a tendency for the more intelligent undergraduate to be sympathetic toward ... atheism."
3. Abraham Franzblau, 1934
Confirming Howells and Carlson, tested 354 Jewish children, 10-16. Negative correlation between religiosity and Terman intelligence test.
4. Thomas Symington, 1935
Tested 400 young people in colleges and church groups. He reported, "there is a constant positive relation in all the groups between liberal religious thinking and mental ability...There is also a constant positive relation between liberal scores and intelligence..."
5. Vernon Jones, 1938
Tested 381 stydents, concluding "a slight tendency for intelligence and liberal attitudes to go together."
6. A. R. Gilliland, 1940
At variance with all other studies, found "little or no relationship between intelligence and attitude toward god."
7. Donald Gragg, 1942
Reported an inverse correlation between 100 ACE freshman test scores and Thurstone "reality of god" scores.
8. Brown and Love, 1951
At U. of Denver, tested 613 male and female students. Mean test scores of non-believers = 119, believers = 100. Percentile NBs = 80, BBs = 50. Their findings "strongly corroborate those of Howells."
9. Michael Argyle, 1958
Concluded that "although intelligent children grasp religious concepts earlier, they are also the first to doubt the truth of religion, and intelligent students are much less likely to accept orthodox beliefs."
10. Jeffrey Hadden, 1963
Found no correlation between intelligence and grades. This was an anomalous finding, since GPA corresponds closely with intelligence. Other factors may have influenced the results at the U. of Wisconsin.
11. Young, Dustin and Holtzman, 1966
Average religiosity decreased as GPA rose.
12. James Trent, 1967
Polled 1400 college seniors. Found little difference, but high-ability students in his sample group were over-represented.
13. C. Plant and E. Minium, 1967
The more intelligent students were less religious, both before entering college and after 2 years of college.
14. Robert Wuthnow, 1978
Of 532 students, 37% of christians, 58% of apostates, and 53 percent of non-religious scored above average on SATs.
15. Hastings and Hoge, 1967, 1974
Polled 200 college students and found no significant correlations.
16. Norman Poythress, 1975
Mean SATs for strongly antireligious (1148), moderately anti-religious (1119), slightly antireligious (1108), and religious (1022). 17. Wiebe and Fleck, 1980
Studied 158 male and female Canadian university students. The reported "nonreligious S's tended to be strongly intelligent" and "more intelligent than religious S's.

There's lots more here.

MUCH better.

Now, have you taken a look at those studies to make sure they're genuine? (Always a good idea.)

From the get-go, they don't look that good, because each individual study didn't seem to use a whole lot of students. It also doesn't help credibility because it's a .org site, and it's really best to use .edu sites if possible.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

*yawn*

 

[angellous_evangellous]

MUCH better.

I disagree.

If we apply Cobbles' logic to this mess, we can replace "theist" or "religion" with "black people" and say that Mr. Blooms is arguing for racism.

Straight logic my friend. Take any posts from the people I described and replace the word "God" with "Iluvatar" and the substance of the argument does not change one iota. If A=B and B=C then A=C. Call the variable "God" or anything else and the equation remains consistent.

 

[Riverwolf]

I disagree.

I agree, now.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

I agree, now.

It's basic religio-phobia.

 

[Bloomdido]

I disagree.

If we apply Cobbles' logic to this mess, we can replace "theist" or "religion" with "black people" and say that Mr. Blooms is arguing for racism.

Mr Bloom is providing sources of evidence that people with lower IQs tend to be more religious. This is certainly what I have experienced. There are claims that one in three scientists believe in god but I think if we delve deeper and ask them if they mean the guy with the beard who made Adam and Eve and left Eve to talk to a snake then sending himself as his son to atone for the sins of the people that he created in his image, you may hit less than 33.33333333333333333333% recurring. Ask scientists if they think the bible is the literal word of god and see what return you get.

 

[sub7]

Evidence? those studies are presented on a bias website and are 20+ years old, I wouldn't trust them, but from personal experience, my education probably received a knock as I was taught facts in school and then told the opposite in church and spent a lot of my youth asking questions about the validity of biblical subjects and fighting the science instead of taking it in.

Besides, how do you measure "Intellectual Ability" if not everyone has the same opinions?
I guess the question is what is intellectual ability? You could know a lot about atomic structure but that itself is mostly theory.

(first post, interesting stuff, thanks everyone!)

 

[Riverwolf]

Mr Bloom is providing sources of evidence that people with lower IQs tend to be more religious. This is certainly what I have experienced. There are claims that one in three scientists believe in god but I think if we delve deeper and ask them if they mean the guy with the beard who made Adam and Eve and left Eve to talk to a snake then sending himself as his son to atone for the sins of the people that he created in his image, you may hit less than 33.33333333333333333333% recurring. Ask scientists if they think the bible is the literal word of god and see what return you get.

So you think all Christians believe all the Bible to be the entire word of God?

 

[Bloomdido]

Do some research. Don't believe what you are told. I know Australia exists because I have seen evidence and put someone up from Brisbane. Now demonstrate to me how your particular god exists.

 

[Riverwolf]

Evidence? those studies are presented on a bias website and are 20+ years old, I wouldn't trust them, but from personal experience, my education probably received a knock as I was taught facts in school and then told the opposite in church and spent a lot of my youth asking questions about the validity of biblical subjects and fighting the science instead of taking it in.

Besides, how do you measure "Intellectual Ability" if not everyone has the same opinions?
I guess the question is what is intellectual ability? You could know a lot about atomic structure but that itself is mostly theory.

(first post, interesting stuff, thanks everyone!)

Welcome!!

I do wonder how the ones who conducted those studies defined intelligence? Was it simply I.Q.? That alone doesn't define intelligence. Education? Nope; many religious people are very well-educated. Grades? DEFINITELY not, because that can depend on the grading policies of the teachers, as well as the quality of the specific class, among other things. (Einstein flunked English, after all. Oh, I'm also pretty sure Einstein believed in God.)

 

[Riverwolf]

Do some research. Don't believe what you are told. I know Australia exists because I have seen evidence and put someone up from Brisbane. Now demonstrate to me how your particular god exists.

MY God? Well... tat tvam asi. (I believe.)

 

[Bloomdido]

So you think all Christians believe all the Bible to be the entire word of God?

I have made a similar post today about the bible. Is it the word of god or not? Do you believe the bits you like or all of it despite its contradictions? Who determines what is real, what is allegorical and what is the dogs danglies?

Is it a bit 'the word of god' with filler from journalists of the time? Please tell me which bits to gloss over. I think a lot of christians have never read the bible properly. They depend on their instructors to drip feed them what the need for eternal salvation.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Do some research. Don't believe what you are told.

Done.

.....