no faith vs wrong faith

[Iti oj]

I understand how you feel. In part its not all our fault and in part it is. The first man, Adam was created immortal and sinless but he sinned and so passed his sinful nature to us all. However, although we have this nature, we can choose not to sin, but we don't always do that. So that's on us.

He paid for all the sins of all the people that ever lived, live, or will live. But for that to be applied to someone personally, they must believe him and trust him that he did it.

A Mormon will tell you yes. I am not a Mormon. I believe the Bible is clear that it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment Hebrews 9:27. Also Jesus told a story of a rich man and a beggar that died and the rich man went immediately to a place of torment (Sheol) and the beggar to paradise. It urges people to accept Christ now, For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation. 2 Cor. 6:2. I believe if someone feels the conviction of the Holy Spirit that they are a sinner in need of a Savior, they should not put off their decision to trust Christ, as that 'knocking on the door of your heart' begins to fade over time until one becomes completely hardened to the pleadings of the Holy Spirit, and we are not guaranteed tomorrow.

isn't their three days between death and judgment?

 

[Katzpur]

A Mormon will tell you yes. I am not a Mormon. I believe the Bible is clear that it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment Hebrews 9:27.

It just doesn't say specially when; it just says "after this" (after death). Is it immediately? I believe there is a kind of a partial judgment immediately after death, but the Bible is also pretty clear about there being a "final judgment" at a later time.

Also Jesus told a story of a rich man and a beggar that died and the rich man went immediately to a place of torment (Sheol) and the beggar to paradise. It urges people to accept Christ now, For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation. 2 Cor. 6:2.

Good point. But Jesus also visited the spirits in prison during the three-day period His body lay in the tomb. What do you believe His purpose was in doing so?

I believe if someone feels the conviction of the Holy Spirit that they are a sinner in need of a Savior, they should not put off their decision to trust Christ, as that 'knocking on the door of your heart' begins to fade over time until one becomes completely hardened to the pleadings of the Holy Spirit, and we are not guaranteed tomorrow.

I agree 100%. The trouble is, not everyone feels this conviction during their lifetime, even if they are a reasonably decent person. Many people have no concept of the possibility of a Savior, and have never ever heard the name of Jesus Chirst. A just God would, it seems to me, have made provisions for these individuals. I would agree with you, though, that we do have a responsibility to search for the truth, and that if someone is stubborn and rebellious in this life, they're likely going to be no different after their body is laid to rest.

 

[Nakosis]

He paid for all the sins of all the people that ever lived, live, or will live. But for that to be applied to someone personally, they must believe him and trust him that he did it.

Jesus can't pay for the sins of others. That's wrong, it's evil. However Jesus can be the example. Jesus forgave the sin of the world. The injustice the world place upon him. He was willing to accept that sin, forgive it and those that sinned against him and face his own sin. That's what I believe you have to be willing to do.Follow Jesus' example. Not make him the sacrificial goat.

A Mormon will tell you yes. I am not a Mormon. I believe the Bible is clear that it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment Hebrews 9:27.

It was appointed to men once to die and be judged. To suffer payment for sin as Jesus did and be judged. The question was whether Jesus would have to suffer year after year to pay for sin as like what they did with animal sacrifice. No, man has to has to be willing to pay for his sin once. Trying to use Jesus as payment for ones own sin shows no willingness to accept accountability.

Also Jesus told a story of a rich man and a beggar that died and the rich man went immediately to a place of torment (Sheol) and the beggar to paradise. It urges people to accept Christ now, For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation. 2 Cor. 6:2. I believe if someone feels the conviction of the Holy Spirit that they are a sinner in need of a Savior, they should not put off their decision to trust Christ, as that 'knocking on the door of your heart' begins to fade over time until one becomes completely hardened to the pleadings of the Holy Spirit, and we are not guaranteed tomorrow.

To accept his example. To accept accountability. However yes man becomes hardened to suffering in sin. The sooner one follows his example the sooner one can cease suffering.

 

[javajo]

Fair enough, you seem a good guy. Er... sorry, per your belief you can't be a good guy?

Eh, if you ask people at work they'll say I'm a pretty good guy, my wife will tell you different.

However it 's evil to let someone else pay for your sins. I would never ask someone else to pay the price of my transgressions. I don't think this was Jesus' intent. To pay for my sins. I think this is a mistaken doctrine of Christian belief.

Yeah, I understand. I don't know why he loved me enough to pay my sin-debt, but I'm glad he did. As far as it being mistaken doctrine, it is repeated many times over in the Bible which when something is repeated, it is emphasized more.

Even if true. Jesus did me no favors by paying for my sin. Didn't ask him to, didn't want it. I rather face God accountable on my own for every action I took. If that is not good enough then I'll accept that. What I won't accept is someone else taking the punishment for my actions.

We still reap what we sow, there are consequences for our actions and even Christians must answer to God for their lives. But the problem is that God is so infinitely holy that just one sin is infinitely repulsive to him, so just one sin keeps us out of Heaven. Jesus, who is infinite, suffered a finite amount of time to pay the penalty of sin, while we who are finite, must suffer an infinite amount of time for our sin. God found a way to reconcile us to him by paying the penalty and giving us Christ's righteousness so we can stand before him justified. In his great wisdom that is far above ours, he concluded all under sin that he might save us. So anyone can be freely saved and not worry about if they've done enough or been good enough to earn salvation. It is given as a free gift. Sometimes our pride gets in the way of accepting it, but I'm not that proud. I mean if someone offers me a million bucks for free, I'm not going to turn it down because I didn't work for it. I'll take the money and run. That's all just my belief, thanks for letting me share. And I hope you have a Happy Thanksgiving!

 

[Iti oj]

... I would agree with you, though, that we do have a responsibility to search for the truth, and that if someone is stubborn and rebellious in this life, they're likely going to be no different after their body is laid to rest...

why? i have no problem admitting when I'm wrong. If Chrstianity is true and i don't believe its because the bible/religion have been wrecked by humans, humans who make false claims. religious people and religious books, makes claims. I fail to see the authenticity or likely hood of these claims being true.
if Christianity was true, then much of what we know/read/understand has been warped by humans. If the evidence was better then i would reconsider my religious stance.

 

[Nakosis]

I agree 100%. The trouble is, not everyone feels this conviction during their lifetime, even if they are a reasonably decent person. Many people have no concept of the possibility of a Savior, and have never ever heard the name of Jesus Chirst. A just God would, it seems to me, have made provisions for these individuals. I would agree with you, though, that we do have a responsibility to search for the truth, and that if someone is stubborn and rebellious in this life, they're likely going to be no different after their body is laid to rest.

There is, through reincarnation. The Judeans were likely influenced into accepting the idea of resurrection from Persian beliefs. There are references to reincarnation in the Bible, but kind of hidden. The Church believed that the concept of reincarnation would devalue the sacrifice of Jesus. So they outlawed it. However it is well known that Origen, an early Christian scholar believed in the pre-existence of souls. He greatly influenced what was accepted as Biblical/scripture. There was likely no one better verse in scripture then he at the time.

 

[javajo]

Jesus can't pay for the sins of others. That's wrong, it's evil. However Jesus can be the example. Jesus forgave the sin of the world. The injustice the world place upon him. He was willing to accept that sin, forgive it and those that sinned against him and face his own sin. That's what I believe you have to be willing to do.Follow Jesus' example. Not make him the sacrificial goat.

Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. 2 Cor.5:20-21

It was appointed to men once to die and be judged. To suffer payment for sin as Jesus did and be judged. The question was whether Jesus would have to suffer year after year to pay for sin as like what they did with animal sacrifice. No, man has to has to be willing to pay for his sin once. Trying to use Jesus as payment for ones own sin shows no willingness to accept accountability.

The Bible says Jesus was sinless, he took our sins and paid for them on the cross.

For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures. 1 Cor. 15:3

To accept his example. To accept accountability. However yes man becomes hardened to suffering in sin. The sooner one follows his example the sooner one can cease suffering.

It is good follow his example and to be accountable and integrity, but I believe we must trust Christ in the matter of our sin-debt.

But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:8

 

[Nakosis]

Eh, if you ask people at work they'll say I'm a pretty good guy, my wife will tell you different.

I'm sure you are. Except how do you go about reconciling that with you belief that none are good? Are you going to look at your wife and friend and tell them they are no good?

Yeah, I understand. I don't know why he loved me enough to pay my sin-debt, but I'm glad he did. As far as it being mistaken doctrine, it is repeated many times over in the Bible which when something is repeated, it is emphasized more.

I think he love man enough to forgive them. If they put you through what they put him through could you forgive your fellow man? That I think is the test.

We still reap what we sow, there are consequences for our actions and even Christians must answer to God for their lives. But the problem is that God is so infinitely holy that just one sin is infinitely repulsive to him, so just one sin keeps us out of Heaven. Jesus, who is infinite, suffered a finite amount of time to pay the penalty of sin, while we who are finite, must suffer an infinite amount of time for our sin.

I believe one suffers sin while in sin. One has to accept the truth of that sin and whatever consequences have been cause by it. Then you can be free of it. I don't think God is repulsed like emotionally. More that truth and sin cannot co-exist. One cannot be with God and at the same time be with sin. Since the nature of God is truth, it's impossible.

God found a way to reconcile us to him by paying the penalty and giving us Christ's righteousness so we can stand before him justified. In his great wisdom that is far above ours, he concluded all under sin that he might save us. So anyone can be freely saved and not worry about if they've done enough or been good enough to earn salvation. It is given as a free gift. Sometimes our pride gets in the way of accepting it, but I'm not that proud. I mean if someone offers me a million bucks for free, I'm not going to turn it down because I didn't work for it. I'll take the money and run. That's all just my belief, thanks for letting me share. And I hope you have a Happy Thanksgiving!

Yes, his wisdom is above ours, yet we keep creating religions thinking we know a thing or two. However I think things are going along as they are supposed to. Man is undergoing a process of refinement and sometimes the process ain't so pretty. However the refined soul that goes through the process and come out the other side is the intended product.

You have a good Thanksgiving as well and continue to be a good guy despite any religious beliefs otherwise.

 

[javajo]

isn't their three days between death and judgment?

That's not in the Bible, it says Jesus rose the third down from the dead. Jesus said the rich man went immediately to Hell.

There is, through reincarnation. The Judeans were likely influenced into accepting the idea of resurrection from Persian beliefs. There are references to reincarnation in the Bible, but kind of hidden. The Church believed that the concept of reincarnation would devalue the sacrifice of Jesus. So they outlawed it. However it is well known that Origen, an early Christian scholar believed in the pre-existence of souls. He greatly influenced what was accepted as Biblical/scripture. There was likely no one better verse in scripture then he at the time.

I consider Origen a heretic, gnostic, and one who greatly twisted scripture. The church didn't outlaw reincarnation, it was never taught and is not in the Bible.

why? i have no problem admitting when I'm wrong. If Chrstianity is true and i don't believe its because the bible/religion have been wrecked by humans, humans who make false claims. religious people and religious books, makes claims. I fail to see the authenticity or likely hood of these claims being true.
if Christianity was true, then much of what we know/read/understand has been warped by humans. If the evidence was better then i would reconsider my religious stance.

I see that you don't believe the Bible is God's Word, so I cannot really reason with you from scripture. But it was nice talking to you.

It just doesn't say when "after this." Is it immediately? I believe there is a kind of a partial judgment immediately after death, but the Bible is also pretty clear about there being a "final judgment" at a later time.

Hi, from my understanding a sinner who rejected Christ goes to Hell immediately at death, later they stand before the Great White Throne Judgment and are then thrown into the Lake of Fire. Symbolic or not, its pretty grim. Christians are judged at the Judgment Seat of Christ for position and reward. There's more to it than that, but time constrains me and while I have a good grasp, I'm still learning.

Good point. But Jesus also visited the spirits in prison during the three-day period His body lay in the tomb. What do you believe His purpose was in doing so?

My understanding is that he went to the Paradise side of Hades, and brought those people to Heaven so now when a believer dies they go to Heaven.

I agree 100%. The trouble is, not everyone feels this conviction during their lifetime, even if they are a reasonably decent person. Many people have no concept of the possibility of a Savior, and have never ever heard the name of Jesus Chirst. A just God would, it seems to me, have made provisions for these individuals. I would agree with you, though, that we do have a responsibility to search for the truth, and that if someone is stubborn and rebellious in this life, they're likely going to be no different after their body is laid to rest.

Yes I agree God is fair and just, he judges with equity as it says. While I do not have all the answers and I do believe telling people the Gospel so they can trust Christ and be saved is the order of the day, I understand God will not judge someone for not believing in someone they never heard of. He will judge people for their sin. Also, in Acts 10 it says, God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him. This is said of Cornelius who respected God and prayed and gave much alms to the poor and such. There must certainly be some people in this category today. People who see the creation and have a conscience so they can know when they do wrong and ask God to forgive them. I don't know exactly how all that plays out, but I do know God is fair and just, merciful and patient, and full of love for every one of us so I trust him in this area. I don't want to give anyone false hope so they put off a decision for Christ, but I will say God is good and fair.

 

[javajo]

You have a good Thanksgiving as well and continue to be a good guy despite any religious beliefs otherwise.

Thanks, you too! I'll try to behave myself.

 

[Katzpur]

why? i have no problem admitting when I'm wrong.

Good for you. Not all people are.

If Chrstianity is true and i don't believe its because the bible/religion have been wrecked by humans, humans who make false claims. religious people and religious books, makes claims. I fail to see the authenticity or likely hood of these claims being true.

That's fine. I'm not trying to convince you of anything.

if Christianity was true, then much of what we know/read/understand has been warped by humans.

You've got that right.

If the evidence was better then i would reconsider my religious stance.

That's good to know. I believe you'll see evidence eventually, even if not in this life.

 

[Katzpur]

There is, through reincarnation. The Judeans were likely influenced into accepting the idea of resurrection from Persian beliefs. There are references to reincarnation in the Bible, but kind of hidden. The Church believed that the concept of reincarnation would devalue the sacrifice of Jesus. So they outlawed it. However it is well known that Origen, an early Christian scholar believed in the pre-existence of souls. He greatly influenced what was accepted as Biblical/scripture. There was likely no one better verse in scripture then he at the time.

I completely believe in the pre-existence of souls, and I believe that Origen was right on the mark, at least with regards to this particular teaching. I don't believe that we were "reincarnated" (at least not as I understand reincarnation) when we were born, nor that we will be reincarnated after we die. I just believe we change from being an unembodied spirit (in our pre-mortal existance), to an embodied, mortal spirit (during our lifetime), back to an unembodied spirit (after we die, but before we are resurrected) back to being an embodied, immortal spirit (throughout the rest of eternity). I don't believe we ever cease to be ourselves, though, and become someone or something else.

 

[Iti oj]

That's good to know. I believe you'll see evidence eventually, even if not in this life.

will it be to late then?
and if God is real how much about what we 'know' about him is true?

 

[Katzpur]

will it be to late then?

I guess that all depends upon whom you ask. According to Mormonism, it won't be too late. On the other hand, we would never advocate that a person live life as if God didn't exist and say, in effect, "He can prove His existance to me later. Meanwhile, I'm living life on my own terms, regardless of how others are impacted by my choices." According to my belief, God alone knows the condition of each and every person's heart. It's not up to us to impose some kind of deadline by which time a person must accept God or be damned for eternity.

and if God is real how much about what we 'know' about him is true?

Again, since even people who believe in God (I'm speaking of the Abrahamic God) don't seem to be able to agree on who and what He is, it would depend upon whose view you went with. Obviously, every person who believes in God believes that his or her understanding of Him is accurate. Obviously, they're not all right. Maybe some of them are.

 

[Iti oj]

I guess that all depends upon whom you ask. According to Mormonism, it won't be too late. On the other hand, we would never advocate that a person live life as if God didn't exist and say, in effect, "He can prove His existance to be later. Meanwhile, I'm living life on my own terms because I refuse to believe without proof." According to my belief, God alone knows the condition of each and every person's heart. It's not up to us to impose some kind of deadline by which time a person must accept God or be damned for eternity.

Again, since even people who believe in God (I'm speaking of the Abrahamic God) don't seem to be able to agree on who and what He is, it would depend upon whose view you went with. Obviously, every person who believes in God believes that his or her understanding of Him is accurate. Obviously, they're not all right. Maybe some of them are.

I would Hazard that none of the monotheism are right even if they are worshiping the right god. some people personally? who knows.

if things are messed up why hasn't/won't God clarify our inaccuracies?

 

[Katzpur]

if things are messed up why hasn't/won't God clarify our inaccuracies?

Well, I believe He has, but I wouldn't expect you to agree with me.

 

[Iti oj]

Well, I believe He has, but I wouldn't expect you to agree with me.

why only clarify to one person? why not something for all of mankind? That's not very fair.

Even if these people did miracles to back up their claims i wasn't around to see them, and miracles aren't an occurance in the world (at least in our time) .

Why doesn't God show favor to the true faith, favor that all can see.

If God is real he has done nothing it reveal himself, and lets humanity ruin his original messages until the message is no longer believable.

 

[Katzpur]

why only clarify to one person?

I don't understand the question. Why do you think only one person has clarification?

If God is real he has done nothing it reveal himself, and lets humanity ruin his original messages until the message is no longer believable.

I disagree. The message I believe is entirely believable to me. I have no interest in arguing the matter with you Iti oj. To me, it's absolutely the most pointless thing in the world to argue whether there's a God or not and, if there is, why He is the way He is. You just can't drag me into a debate on that subject. If God's existance or lack of existance is ultimately unprovable, it's a losing battle for everyone involved. No hard feelings, though. It's just not a subject I care to get into. As far as the OP is concerned, I believe that wrong faith is preferable to no faith. On the other hand, I think it's impossible to just will oneself to believe.

 

[waitasec]

i find this to be a common reaction, when any particular idea of god is pointed out to be irreconcilable with the label's beliefs adhere to, the argument changes to 'i'm not going to be dragged into an argument about the existence of god'.

 

[Iti oj]

I don't understand the question. Why do you think only one person has clarification?

I disagree. The message I believe is entirely believable to me. I have no interest in arguing the matter with you Iti oj. To me, it's absolutely the most pointless thing in the world to argue whether there's a God or not and, if there is, why He is the way He is. You just can't drag me into a debate on that subject. If God's existance or lack of existance is ultimately unprovable, it's a losing battle for everyone involved. No hard feelings, though. It's just not a subject I care to get into. As far as the OP is concerned, I believe that wrong faith is preferable to no faith. On the other hand, I think it's impossible to just will oneself to believe.

Im not so much as debating the existence of God but the concept of God more so the religions that "define" God. More so of the nature of God and of the fallibility and unfairness of Gods religions. I was referring to prophets. God communines with a prophet usually by vision, dream, or angel... that angel then preaches Gods word even producing miracles to back up their claim.

These prophets lived long before me, and no miracles have been witnessed an verified in my time. Ihave not witnessed any miracle nor anything to make it seem plausible. Holy books makes many claims as into the nature of this world most of these claims prove false, for sake of argument I'll assume man messed Gods message up. The claims of prophets and miracles loose creditability when science and observation and history discredit many of the other claims found in the same holy books. If the rest of said Holy books were shown to be accurate then even the miracles and prophets become more believable. It's not my fault Gods message got ruined and discredited by humans who lived and died way before me, nor is my fault God has never done anything to verify and show these claims to be true in my own time.

That's not fair. Why can not God let one of his followers provide a miracle for me? Water to wine would suffice. Why does God not speak to me? Or every other human for that matter?

Their are two many religions with contradictory or exclusive beliefs, all making claims about reality that are observably not true. Nor is their an indication for a need of God. If I am wrong, should i get punished for be realistic? punished for other peoples mistakes? I know im not perfect and have much to seek forgiveness for but i do my best, and had God made even a half ***** attempt to show me his love I would love. God has done nothing but let his message be corrupted by man and/or the devil.

I mean a book I can not verify the claims or events inside of the book, is that really the best God can do? Don't we deserve more?