No great spiritual teacher in history would condone Capitalism

[Rainbow Mage]

I'm trying to get an understanding of your ideas here. Are you now arguing that, because capitalism has historically led to what you term "over-materialism", that it will always -- that it will necessarily -- lead to "over-materialism"?

Also, is owning a house, car, etc. "over-materialism"? If so, why? What would not be "over-materialism"?

I say history always bears out the truth. Capitalism has proven what it is time and again in history. No I am not saying owning a house and car are over-materialism, I am saying having to own the nicest house and nicest most expensive car is. I am saying that having to own a big mansion with more rooms then you'll ever need and a lot full of cars is. What's the point? To live some shallow existence in which you can show off how much better you are then someone else?

 

[Caladan]

The difference is that American Capitalism keeps the lower classes hyped up with hopes and dreams of riches and material goods. They pervert and distort the minds of men to their most base and animalistic instincts, as we see with America's love of war.

Why do you blame them?
They are just as material and animalistic as the common men and women. no one forces anyone to feed on and try to thrive on consumerism and material goods. its the normative choice of the masses.
you are living in a democratic system, aren't you? (arguably a republican one). vote these people out.

The Egyptians were happy and content to be poor. They focused on devotion to the gods and helping each other.

And you know this. because?

The Egyptians offered us the foundation for the answer to the problems of today's world- Socialism. A system in which a few people manage and distribute all the wealth, so that everyone can have a decent life, instead of this huge divide between rich and poor.

You have obviously never taken an academic course about ancient Egypt. or if you have, you were dosing off during lecture time.
Life in ancient Egypt were an embodiment of cruelty. civil wars between conflicting royal dynasties. political struggles between the priests and the royals. battles against the Hittites and the powers of the region. and masses of poor and uneducated people who are oblivious to the consequences of it all. except for the fortunate few who succeeded in entering the Egyptian armed forces. and perhaps served in the Amun brigade under Ramesses II during the battle of Kadesh. and receive some of the glory of the enfolding historical events or for serving under the king, fighting against the second near eastern super power of the time. the Hittites of the North.

 

[Sunstone]

I say history always bears out the truth. Capitalism has proven what it is time and again in history. No I am not saying owning a house and car are over-materialism, I am saying having to own the nicest house and nicest most expensive car is. I am saying that having to own a big mansion with more rooms then you'll ever need and a lot full of cars is. What's the point? To live some shallow existence in which you can show off how much better you are then someone else?

What do you think of Maslow's argument that we must first satisfy lower needs, such as our need for food, clothing, and shelter, before we will can satisfy higher needs, such as our need for self-realization?

Or, to put this in a different context, what about the argument made in China around 575 B.C.E., and which might be summarized as, “Clothes, food, shelter: Satisfy these first, then teach people to be human.”

 

[Rainbow Mage]

What do you think of Maslow's argument that we must first satisfy lower needs, such as our need for food, clothing, and shelter, before we will can satisfy higher needs, such as our need for self-realization?

Or, to put this in a different context, what about the argument made in China around 575 B.C.E., and which might be summarized as, “Clothes, food, shelter: Satisfy these first, then teach people to be human.”

How far is too far though in satisfying these basic needs?

 

[Sunstone]

How far is too far though in satisfying these basic needs?

That is simply a question of when one's needs are satisfied, isn't it?

 

[gnomon]

Does anyone ever think about this, despite the fact that they may like Capitalism? None of the great spiritual masters of history would ever have condoned Capitalism. I'm not even sure they would have called it ethical.

Why do people like Capitalism so much, especially American Christians? Do you honestly believe Jesus would have supported Capitalism? Have you read what the Bible says against usury, and what it says about giving up everything, and what Acts says the early church was like? That was a purely Socialist system!

How can anyone who claims to be true follower of any religion or spiritual teacher condone Capitalism? It's a system built on greed and usury. It discourages charity and looking out for the poor, by teaching to look out for yourself first.

What meaning of capitalism are you using?

 

[Gunfingers]

What meaning of capitalism are you using?

People not really familiar with economics tend to confuse modern american corporatism with capitalism. They then go on to make up weird facts about it to back up their hatred. Y'know, the whole "have to have the best house and car" thing. I'd love to see the statistics backing that up.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

People not really familiar with economics tend to confuse modern american corporatism with capitalism. They then go on to make up weird facts about it to back up their hatred. Y'know, the whole "have to have the best house and car" thing. I'd love to see the statistics backing that up.

Capitalism enabled Corporatism

 

[Rainbow Mage]

What meaning of capitalism are you using?

The best example available, the US

 

[Gunfingers]

Capitalism enabled Corporatism

Perhaps, but in much the same way that socialism enabled the soviet union.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

What about Socialism?

Socialism in Europe is Capitalism with a social face.
It still makes use of all the same financial institutions, but tries to control them with regulations.

Communism has failed where ever it has been tried. Even China which has tried it in various guises, has now infused it with capitalism.

 

[gnomon]

The best example available, the US

Care to try that again?

 

[Revoltingest]

Capitalism enabled Corporatism

Corporations have their usefulness. This form of ownership allows people to come together, pool resources, limit liability, &
accomplish tasks they couldn't do individually. Ancient spiritual leaders who oppose this are a bunch of dead & small minded ninnies.
So there!

 

[Gunfingers]

I think what really confuses me is why we should care about what spiritual leaders say about economics. That's not exactly their bailiwick.

 

[Revoltingest]

I think what really confuses me is why we should care about what spiritual leaders say about economics. That's not exactly their bailiwick.

What the kitty said!
Besides, we didn't see Milton Friedman saving souls or preaching about how many angels fit on the head of a pin.

 

[Intrigued]

I do not think that capitalism contradicts Christianity why should we TELL someone to give to the poor? Shouldn't we give them the CHOICE to give to the poor.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

I do not think that capitalism contradicts Christianity why should we TELL someone to give to the poor? Shouldn't we give them the CHOICE to give to the poor.

They do have a choice... to give or salvation.

 

[Intrigued]

sorry i do not understand your reply can you clear it for me please. thank you.

 

[BruceDLimber]

None of the great spiritual masters of history would ever have condoned Capitalism. I'm not even sure they would have called it ethical.

So sorry, but you couldn't be more wrong about this!

Baha'u'llah, the Founder of the Baha'i Faith, endorsed it, with refinements such as profit-sharing explained by 'Abdu'l-Baha, His son and appointed interpreter. It was also made clear that not everyone has to have exactly the same income.

(They also established an administrative system featuring democratically-elected nonpartisan bodies, please note.)

And BTW, Shoghi Effendi, later the head of the Baha'i Faith and the other authorized interpreter, stated explicitly that marxism was one of the three great false religions of the Twentieth Century (along with nationalism and racism).

Peace,

Bruce

 

[Rainy]

Using a simple definition of capitalism, according to wiki:

"Capitalism is an economic system in which the means of production are privately owned and operated for a private profit; decisions regarding supply, demand, price, distribution, and investments are made by private actors in the free market; profit is sent to owners who invest in businesses, and wages are paid to workers employed by businesses and companies...."
　
Leviticus 25 teaches of a laissez-faire capitalism, in my opinion. It is based on fair market value:

14 And if thou sell ought unto thy neigbour, or buyest ought of thy neighbour’s hand, ye shall not oppress one another:
15 According to the number of years after the jubile thou shalt buy of thy neighbour, and according unto the number of years of the fruits he shall sell unto thee:
16 According to the multitude of years thou shalt increase the price thereof, and according to the fewness of years thou shalt diminish the price of it: for according to the number of the years of the fruits doth he sell unto thee.
17 Ye shall not therefore oppress one another; but thou shalt fear thy God: for I am the LORD you God.

Materialism is a byproduct of a prosperous people. It is expected to be shared with all in the land.

6 And the Sabbath of the land shall be meat for you; for thee, and for thy servant, and for thy maid, and for thy hired servant, and for thy stranger that sojourned with thee,
7 And for thy cattle, and for the beast that are in thy land, shall all the increase thereof be meat.

The greed of men corrupt a free working system, when they refuse to honor the jubile.

23 The land shall not be sold for ever: for the land is Mine; for ye are strangers and sojourners with Me.
24 And in all the land of your possession ye shall grant a redemption for the land.

corporatism = capitalism + government