no hell

[SalixIncendium]

they don't say torment. the fire is not to torment but to annihilate.

They don't say 'annihilate,' either.

But I digress. What does your response have to do with the existence of hell in Christianity?

 

[syo]

They don't say 'annihilate,' either.

But I digress. What does your response have to do with the existence of hell in Christianity?

most people think that hell is a place of torture, causing eternal pain. that's sadistic.

 

[SalixIncendium]

most people think that hell is a place of torture, causing eternal pain. that's sadistic.

Do you have evidence to refute their belief?

 

[syo]

people think that god is a sadist who causes pain eternally to unbelievers. that's wrong.

 

[syo]

Do you have evidence to refute their belief?

where did they get the eternal torture???

 

[SalixIncendium]

where did they get the eternal torture???

Probably from the same place you get the annihilation.

 

[syo]

Probably from the same place you get the annihilation.

annihilation is logical. torture isn't. but i could be wrong. but i really dislike the torture, it doesn't make sense.

 

[QuestioningMind]

there is no hell in christianity. evil people, after their judgement, they are annihilated, they are not tortured. they simply cease to exist. if we want to gain eternal life we must try for the good. the idea that god is a sadistic ruler that sends people to torment hell should stop.

Even if it's true that the biblical God doesn't send people to hell, the fact that He very clearly condones the horribly immoral act of slavery indicates that this isn't a God worthy of worship.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

it's the wickedness that is destroyed not the soul. in my opinion.

So they aren't annihilated?

 

[Twilight Hue]

why do priests promote the torment hell?

Keeps em from leaving.

 

[syo]

Even if it's true that the biblical God doesn't send people to hell, the fact that He very clearly condones the horribly immoral act of slavery indicates that this isn't a God worthy of worship.

is the new testament pro slavery? in my belief, the new testament is superior to the old testament. the old testament is, well, old.

 

[ThePainefulTruth]

there is no hell in christianity. evil people, after their judgement, they are annihilated, they are not tortured. they simply cease to exist. if we want to gain eternal life we must try for the good. the idea that god is a sadistic ruler that sends people to torment hell should stop.

There would be no judgement or hell. Why would God want anyone to stain heaven with their anguish. If there is a Hereafter, we judge ourselves while reviewing our lives for all to see, seated in the undeniable light of Truth. When the pain of irreconcilable regret becomes obvious, the oblivion button is the humane way out.

 

[QuestioningMind]

No it would not be possible within the confines of free will, because he has endowed men with free will. The converse of what I stated above is that God will do his best to help sinners get to heaven but that it cannot be done without man's co-operation.

There is however another aspect to all this, which is that God knows the future where he can foresee how every individual will behave. So he can arrange events to e.g. get rid of pride in one person, and allow it to inflate to its maximum extent in another. That is a matter of God's eternal decrees and purposes, but it does not violate the principle of free will in the individual to chose right and wrong. There is nothing that an indivdual can do to absolve himself of sin except via the authorized way of salvation.

So if God knows the future, why does He allow a serial child murderer to kill 20 innocent children over the course of his 70 year life? After the murderer kills the first two children, why doesn't God give him a heart attack and end his life in order to save the other 18 innocent children's lives? I've heard others claim that the fact that God gave them free will means that God can't do so, but that makes no sense to me. That suggests that God is not able to end anyone's life unless the person in question has a will to die, and it's quite obvious that that isn't the case.

 

[David1967]

Many versions of Christianity have Hell, even if your version doesn't.

This is true, though the meaning of 'Hell' is very diverse within the different denominations. From the fiery pit of eternal torture, to annihilation of the unbelievers soul, to simply 'the grave'.

 

[Trackdayguy]

Well, you're the minority in thinking that.

I'm not so sure he is

 

[Kapalika]

there is no hell in christianity. evil people, after their judgement, they are annihilated, they are not tortured. they simply cease to exist. if we want to gain eternal life we must try for the good. the idea that god is a sadistic ruler that sends people to torment hell should stop.

I kind of think this isn't solving the inherent issue, just the auxiliary one about cruelty because in my view destroying people for all eternity is still an infinite punishment for a finite an temporary crime.

Does your theology have an answer to that part of the equation? I have trouble seeing such a justification since it's so final and the alledged crimes so temporary.

 

[InChrist]

So if God knows the future, why does He allow a serial child murderer to kill 20 innocent children over the course of his 70 year life? After the murderer kills the first two children, why doesn't God give him a heart attack and end his life in order to save the other 18 innocent children's lives? I've heard others claim that the fact that God gave them free will means that God can't do so, but that makes no sense to me. That suggests that God is not able to end anyone's life unless the person in question has a will to die, and it's quite obvious that that isn't the case.

Maybe God sees the big picture and how each person's life is interconnected. If God gave the serial killer a heart attack what would ALL the ramifications be? Only God knows. You may immediately think, well, it would save the rest of those innocent children, which may be correct as far as your finite view is concerned. But maybe God sees and knows more. I know of a family in which the husband was a pedophile abusing children secretly for over 30 years. Maybe God should have had him die years ago. Instead he is in prison. His own son and wife turned him in to authorities as soon as victims finally started speaking out to them. This wife and son, along with several other of this man's children have all suffered shame and heartache at what their husband/father has done, yet they are now helping so many others and exposing the tactics of pedophiles so that others have a greater awareness. Had God killed this man earlier, his own children would not have been born and the supportive help and education they are providing would not exist. Only God sees all the details and has the ability to know the best way to work through each situation. Maybe in some cases He does end a life and in others for various reasons He doesn't.

 

[QuestioningMind]

is the new testament pro slavery? in my belief, the new testament is superior to the old testament. the old testament is, well, old.

So what happened to the terribly immoral God of the OT? Did Jesus kill him and take his place? Since the OT is OLD does that mean we can ignore everything that's in it? If so, why is it even included in the bible?

 

[InChrist]

Hell is a creation of the founders of Christianity. It has obviously served its purpose, as a recruiting approach, quite well.

The offer of reward alone motivates people and the threat of punishment alone works equally well. But the two combined, reward and punishment, are very powerful. Heaven is the reward and Hell is the threat of punishment made to the children of Christians to influence their adult choices.

Jesus is the foundation of Christianity and He warned against the lake of fire more than anyone...

"The other word rendered "hell" in the New Testament is geenna. That this refers only to that side of hades where the damned were confined, and still are, is also clear. Jesus referred to "geenna fire" (Mat:5:22) and warned that it would be better to remove a hindering eye or hand and to "enter into" heaven than to have all one's body parts "to be cast into geenna, into the fire that never shall be quenched" (Mat:18:8-9 ; Mk 9:43-47, etc.). Clearly, only the damned are ever in geenna, which must therefore be that part of hades where the lost are confined.

"Death and geenna" will be "cast into the Lake of Fire. This is the second death" (Rev:20:14). There the "devil...the beast and the false prophet...shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever" (Rev:20:10). There, also, "those who worship the beast and his image" during the reign of Antichrist "shall be tormented with fire and brimstone...and the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever" (Rev:14:9-11 ). Thus the final fate of the lost who have been geenna's inhabitants awaiting their "resurrection unto damnation" (Jn:5:29) is "the second death"—i.e., eternal separation from God and from true life.

Hades was emptied of the redeemed when Christ, the forerunner (prodromos, like the lead runner in the Olympics - Heb:6:20), ascended into heaven and "led captivity [i.e., captives] captive" (Ps:68:18
; Eph:4:8). As the saved are taken to heaven to "ever be with the Lord" (1 Thes:4:17), so the lost will be taken to the Lake of Fire to be separated from God forever.

Surely the Lake of Fire must be what Christ referred to as "everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels" (Mat:25:41)—i.e., it was not intended for humans. It is thus the greatest of tragedies that any humans go there. However, those who become the followers of Satan are forever with him in the Lake of Fire just as the followers of Christ are forever with Him in heaven. Inasmuch as these same words are used, if "eternal" only means "temporary" for the damned, then it would have to mean the same for the redeemed. Thus, if there were an escape from the Lake of Fire, heaven would not be permanent either.

Having established that just as the Bible teaches eternal bliss for the redeemed, so it also teaches eternal punishment for the damned, let us consider the question with which we began: Why must this be so, and how could a God who "is love" (1 Jn:4:8) ever allow it to happen?"
Is Punishment Eternal?

 

[QuestioningMind]

Maybe God sees the big picture and how each person's life is interconnected. If God gave the serial killer a heart attack what would ALL the ramifications be? Only God knows. You may immediately think, well, it would save the rest of those innocent children, which may be correct as far as your finite view is concerned. But maybe God sees and knows more. I know of a family in which the husband was a pedophile abusing children secretly for over 30 years. Maybe God should have had him die years ago. Instead he is in prison. His own son and wife turned him in to authorities as soon as victims finally started speaking out to them. This wife and son, along with several other of this man's children have all suffered shame and heartache at what their husband/father has done, yet they are now helping so many others and exposing the tactics of pedophiles so that others have a greater awareness. Had God killed this man earlier, his own children would not have been born and the supportive help and education they are providing would not exist. Only God sees all the details and has the ability to know the best way to work through each situation. Maybe in some cases He does end a life and in others for various reasons He doesn't.

Wow... okay... so you're saying that God wanted all 20 of those innocent children to die violent gruesome deaths. And that killing those 20 children is essential for reasons that are beyond our ability to comprehend. Sorry, but that would be like trying to claim that Hitler was doing the right thing by slaughtering millions of innocence, but the reasoning behind it is just too complex for us to understand. Sounds like a pathetic cop out to me

As for your pedophile father example... I'm a bit confused. You say that somehow it was a GOOD thing that he abused his children for years, because it enabled them to start speaking out against other immoral pedophiles. And that if God had given the sleazeball father a heat attack that they never would have made the effort to try and protect all of the other innocent children being abused by their parents. However, if God would intervene and give heat attacks to all of the disgusting pedophiles in the world, these poor kids wouldn't need to speak out because there wouldn't be any other children being abused in such a manner.

If millions of children being abuse is all part of God's Plan, then I have to wonder if God's plan is worth following.