No overwhelming historical proof: Why I doubt Jesus

[Brian Schuh]

I wonder when people began to give some thought to whether Jesus ever existed as a literal person.

From what I know of Anthropology, I don't think it was a significant concern until after some centuries had passed. It may well be that it was Islam, or even Muhammad specifically. that raised the matter to the level of significant subject matter.

For the most part, religious figures tend to be considered for their messages and their inspirational value. It is almost implied that they are not expected to actually have existed.

Even Socrates in Plato's Republic is a fairly fictional character, despite having been based on the historical Socrates. I don't think all that many Hindus necessarily believe that Krishna existed and walked over Earth as Arjuna's charioteer, either. But most of all, that is not supposed to be important far as I can tell.

Christianity (and Islam)'s obsession with proclaiming to have "the truth" is very much an oddity, if not an all-out flaw.

I absolutely agree. I almost flunked English Literature in high school, because my religion at the time discouraged reading novels (based on Ellen G. White, the prophetess of the Seventh-day Adventists.) But I received the most improved grade award that year, for raising my grade from an F to a B. All I had to do was agree to read novels. I read "Catcher in the Rye." by J. D. Salinger to start with. And I learned what it means to speak of the truth value of fiction. The truth contained in that novel has nothing to do with whether the novel is historical or not. It doesn't matter if the story actually happened, for the story to present some kind of truth. And I learned that you must suspend disbelief, before you can get the point. There is another book called "The Power of Myth." that is worth reading.

 

[oldbadger]

.............
Even Socrates in Plato's Republic is a fairly fictional character, despite having been based on the historical Socrates. ............... .

Are you saying that a fictional Socrates was based upon the genuine Socrates?
I think there is a joke there, somewhere.....

 

[Brian Schuh]

Are you saying that a fictional Socrates was based upon the genuine Socrates?
I think there is a joke there, somewhere.....

Is there a real Brian Schuh behind the Brian Schuh making this post? I mean, is that my name? or how I present myself and the beliefs I speak of, in other words, is Brian Schuh a mythological man? Maybe I have given my password to a Hindu, a Jew, a Christian and a Muslim, and I died, giving them my dying wish, that none of them contradict each other in this account. Maybe everyone is just a fictional character.

 

[oldbadger]

.....................................

I wholeheartedly agree. If Jesus was such big news, why would Josephus make him to be not much more than a footnote?..........................

Because Josephus possibly remembered Jesus because of the Demonstration he caused in the Temple Courts and the Picketing that he carried out in the Temple on two days running. This was a very serious incident. This may be why Josephus placed his mention of Jesus amongst other unfavourable or disreputable names.

Christians probably altered what was written, but because they left the entry where it is, rather than, say, insert a piece adjacent to Josephus' mention of John the Baptist, this helps to prove that Josephus really did write about Jesus.

 

[oldbadger]

Celcus (Celsius?), writing against Christianity in the 2nd century, not much later than the Gospel of John was writ, mentioned that Jesus was a peasant with a group of followers composed of ten boatmen and two tax officers. This rings true, because Judas who held the money bag could well have been a lake official, taxman or publican.

It's nice when enemies write about a person......... helps to show that they existed?

 

[LuisDantas]

Are you saying that a fictional Socrates was based upon the genuine Socrates?
I think there is a joke there, somewhere.....

I don't think that is in significant doubt. As I understand it, Plato presented his book as the adventures of Socrates (his teacher), despite Socrates being dead already by that time.

 

[oldbadger]

Is there a real Brian Schuh behind the Brian Schuh making this post? I mean, is that my name? or how I present myself and the beliefs I speak of, in other words, is Brian Schuh a mythological man? Maybe I have given my password to a Hindu, a Jew, a Christian and a Muslim, and I died, giving them my dying wish, that none of them contradict each other in this account. Maybe everyone is just a fictional character.

Yes, but I read a member's post, which mentioned that a fictional person may have been based upon a real person! I thought that was amusing.

So my question back to you is, can you tell a joke when you see it, or do you just think you imagined it all?

 

[oldbadger]

I don't think that is in significant doubt. As I understand it, Plato presented his book as the adventures of Socrates (his teacher), despite Socrates being dead already by that time.

I never read Plato.
.....and I got kicked (and beaten... often) out of Latin into Woodwork!
Ah yes...... but there was a Socrates, and therefore, based upon the balance of possibilities, some may have been true. ?

And so it is with Yeshua BarYosef, Handworker in the second order of (displaced) peasants, many of the anecdotes in, say, G-Mark, may be based upon a truly historical person? That's a very very long way from Paul's Lord Jesus Christ, of course.

 

[Brian Schuh]

I never read Plato.
.....and I got kicked (and beaten... often) out of Latin into Woodwork!
Ah yes...... but there was a Socrates, and therefore, based upon the balance of possibilities, some may have been true. ?

And so it is with Yeshua BarYosef, Handworker in the second order of (displaced) peasants, many of the anecdotes in, say, G-Mark, may be based upon a truly historical person? That's a very very long way from Paul's Lord Jesus Christ, of course.

I believe Bill Clinton is a fictional character. Actually, he is a cartoon character. I mean, have you ever met him? We need the Federal Reserve to print $3 bills, with Bill Clinton on the front blowing his trombone. And Monica Louwensky (sp?) on the back standing like the statue of liberty. All of Bill Clinton's whores could be on the $3 bill. Does a real person exist behind someone as fake as Bill Clinton?

 

[Brickjectivity]

I don't believe that. Most real Christians never measure up any Gods besides Jesus Christ.

I didn't say you did believed that, but I agree with Columbus for this and other reasons. How did Christians wind up with a Krishna-like Jesus? There are other questions too -- very strange that we don't know any of these: Why don't we have original portraits of Jesus? Why didn't anyone write down the date of his birthday? Why don't we have his original address, shoe size and all these things? What was his favorite food? Did he know how to ride a horse? If I had seen the personal lord and savior you can bet I would have recorded these and more or at least given an explanation for why not.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Because Josephus possibly remembered Jesus because of the Demonstration he caused in the Temple Courts and the Picketing that he carried out in the Temple on two days running. This was a very serious incident. This may be why Josephus placed his mention of Jesus amongst other unfavourable or disreputable names.

Christians probably altered what was written, but because they left the entry where it is, rather than, say, insert a piece adjacent to Josephus' mention of John the Baptist, this helps to prove that Josephus really did write about Jesus.

I still don't get why, in context of the era and time, a Jewish scribe would exclusively mention Jesus as if he was real. I'm reading it that he was acknowledging early Christians whom, paraphrased, believed in and followed one that they called Christ.


A reference to this day in describing Christians.

 

[LuisDantas]

I never read Plato.
.....and I got kicked (and beaten... often) out of Latin into Woodwork!
Ah yes...... but there was a Socrates, and therefore, based upon the balance of possibilities, some may have been true. ?

Quite probably.

Not that I think the literary Socrates should be thought of as "false", mind you. The least important thing about Socrates is what exactly happened or was done by the person proper. His legacy is far more significant. In that he is not very different from anyone else, either.

An interesting article can be found at http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/socrates/

And so it is with Yeshua BarYosef, Handworker in the second order of (displaced) peasants, many of the anecdotes in, say, G-Mark, may be based upon a truly historical person? That's a very very long way from Paul's Lord Jesus Christ, of course.

I don't think we have the means to tell for sure. Personally I think the style of those writings strongly hints of a fully fictional character, but if you disagree, then that is that.

 

[jonathan180iq]

So do I. That's why I made the distinction between Jesus and "the character in the New Testament "
Tom

Like the differences between Vlad the Impaler and Dracula, right?

 

[g2perk]

I didn't say you did believed that, but I agree with Columbus for this and other reasons. How did Christians wind up with a Krishna-like Jesus? There are other questions too -- very strange that we don't know any of these: Why don't we have original portraits of Jesus? Why didn't anyone write down the date of his birthday? Why don't we have his original address, shoe size and all these things? What was his favorite food? Did he know how to ride a horse? If I had seen the personal lord and savior you can bet I would have recorded these and more or at least given an explanation for why not.

I don't know about a Krishna like Jesus. But as for as pictures go. Was there any picture taken equipment, Did everyone in those times where the same thing, it is said that you could not tell him from his own Disciples.

 

[Brickjectivity]

I don't know about a Krishna like Jesus. But as for as pictures go. Was there any picture taken equipment, Did everyone in those times where the same thing, it is said that you could not tell him from his own Disciples.

We are talking about the most important person ever, not just anybody. If his disciples didn't leave a description of Jesus then they purposely didn't. The only question is why.

 

[g2perk]

We are talking about the most important person ever, not just anybody. If his disciples didn't leave a description of Jesus then they purposely didn't. The only question is why.

Well the description your talking about isn't the most important part of His ministry. His teaching was the importance of His existence. The whole bible including the OT is all pointing to Jesus. The proof is how can all these men from diff times say the same thing in unison about one man. That's the miracle.

 

[oldbadger]

I believe Bill Clinton is a fictional character. Actually, he is a cartoon character. I mean, have you ever met him? We need the Federal Reserve to print $3 bills, with Bill Clinton on the front blowing his trombone. And Monica Louwensky (sp?) on the back standing like the statue of liberty. All of Bill Clinton's whores could be on the $3 bill. Does a real person exist behind someone as fake as Bill Clinton?

Nah! I done seen 'im on the telly, grinnin'!

 

[oldbadger]

I still don't get why, in context of the era and time, a Jewish scribe would exclusively mention Jesus as if he was real. I'm reading it that he was acknowledging early Christians whom, paraphrased, believed in and followed one that they called Christ.


A reference to this day in describing Christians.

Just a second....
Josephus was the retired commander of all Galilean forces!
He probably had met soldiers and others who personally knew Jesus.

 

[columbus]

I believe Bill Clinton is a fictional character. Actually, he is a cartoon character. I mean, have you ever met him? We need the Federal Reserve to print $3 bills, with Bill Clinton on the front blowing his trombone. And Monica Louwensky (sp?) on the back standing like the statue of liberty. All of Bill Clinton's whores could be on the $3 bill. Does a real person exist behind someone as fake as Bill Clinton?

Bill Clinton is a great example.
He is very important on the national political level, regardless of what you think about him. People who like him talk about how well the country did when he was in office and his political prowess. People who don't like him talk about his philandering and selling pardons to people like Marc Rich.
What will be remembered probably will have little to do with the historical William Jefferson Clinton/Slick Willie ,and more to do with who writes the history books.
If there even are such technological anachronisms as "books".
Tom

 

[Sapiens]

Except one thing when you say the name JESUS you automatically place Him as God.

And Hercules associated with a myth.

No I automatically place both, without prejudice, as myth.