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No social ladders any longer?

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Abortion is right or wrong depending solely upon
highly varied personal preference. There is no
universally agreed upon relevant morality, as we
see in religions & governments.
Let's avoid absolutism that ignores this diversity.


If diversity equates to accepting what is obviously wrong, then we are in a spiral downward on the issue of love. Just because one doesn't agree on an issue doesn't equate to accept a lower standard.

There is no universally agreed position on marrying children. Wouldn't your position mean that we should just accept it? Or do you have a golden standard that it is still wrong as I would with abortion.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
If diversity equates to accepting what is obviously wrong, then we are in a spiral downward on the issue of love. Just because one doesn't agree on an issue doesn't equate to accept a lower standard.
The argument of obviousness doesn't ever work.
It's obvious to me that abortion is a moral right
stemming from bodily autonomy. Yet it would be
bonkers for me to tout this obviousness as having
any cromulence. So personal preference it remains.
There is no universally agreed position on marrying children.
I recognize that this too as personal preference, although
it child marriage is less widely approved than abortion rights.
And it appears to be declining in acceptance around the globe.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
The argument of obviousness doesn't ever work.
It's obvious to me that abortion is a moral right
stemming from bodily autonomy. Yet it would be
bonkers for me to tout this obviousness as having
any cromulence. So personal preference it remains.

The problem that I see in the above equation is that bodily autonomy stops when it is someone else's body. The baby in the womb is not her body.

So personal preference isn't applicable unless the baby autonomy presents a danger to the autonomy of the body of the mother such as a fallopian tube pregnancy.

I recognize that this too as personal preference, although
it child marriage is less widely approved than abortion rights.
And it appears to be declining in acceptance around the globe.

:) Then I just have the higher golden standard of ethics. :) (but just on these two subjects as I am not holier than thou)
 

Altfish

Veteran Member
To achieve recognition and acceptance, you need to have authority over Scientific Community. And to have authority, you need to have recognition. Elite is a closed club and there are no "social lifts" or "social ladders". Therefore, it is a great miracle of God if a good person receives recognition, glory, fame, and success.
Ha!
This is in the joke thread? No!
The scientific community has no authority, anyone can publish a paper for peer review. Even I could if I had anything intelligent to say.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
The problem that I see in the above equation is that bodily autonomy stops when it is someone else's body. The baby in the womb is not her body.
Invoking the argument of obviousness, the
fetus is part of the mother's body...not a
separate human being.
Once again, my obvious is as unconvincing
as your obvious.
So personal preference isn't applicable unless the baby autonomy presents a danger to the autonomy of the body of the mother such as a fallopian tube pregnancy.



:) Then I just have the higher golden standard of ethics. :) (but just on these two subjects as I am not holier than thou)
My standard of morality (like yours) is neither
higher nor lower....just different.

I suspect that our different backgrounds result
in different very different perspectives.
Religion gives prescriptions & proscriptions from
on high. They're absolutely true & unchanging.

I never had a religion though...morality as merely
personal views. What arises from a majority determines
what becomes socially accepted & made into laws.
There is no absolute truth....except for math.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Invoking the argument of obviousness, the
fetus is part of the mother's body...not a
separate human being.
Once again, my obvious is as unconvincing
as your obvious.

Different brain waves, different blood, different finger prints, different heart beat

I'll stick with science :)



My standard of morality (like yours) is neither
higher nor lower....just different.

I suspect that our different backgrounds result
in different very different perspectives.
Religion gives prescriptions & proscriptions from
on high. They're absolutely true & unchanging.

I never had a religion though...morality as merely
personal views. What arises from a majority determines
what becomes socially accepted & made into laws.
There is no absolute truth....except for math.

GREAT! - then neither science or religion have a lead on ethics.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Different brain waves, different blood, different finger prints, different heart beat

I'll stick with science :)
Science isn't what drives the differences. Opposition
to abortion rights typically stems from religion, which
is about as unscientific as one can get.
Deciding when a human life begins is an arbitrary point
chosen from the continuum between conception & birth.
And then there's the issue of government imposition
upon the mother for the benefit of another, be it human
or pre-human (fetus). It's not simple. It's not science.
I favor less government coercion in abortion decisions.
GREAT! - then neither science or religion have a lead on ethics.
On this we agree.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
To achieve recognition and acceptance, you need to have authority over Scientific Community. And to have authority, you need to have recognition. Elite is a closed club and there are no "social lifts" or "social ladders". Therefore, it is a great miracle of God if a good person receives recognition, glory, fame, and success.


Translation: I can't manage to get my pseudo-scientific nonsense published and I seem to be the only one realizing what a genius I am, so instead of some honest self-reflection, I'll just complain about some mysterious "elite" and make some vague conspiratory claims about how "science" is authoritarian and corrupt.



:rolleyes:
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
We could start right here one the very first half a sentence...

Would you like to back that up?

Levaquin Users Sue J&J for $800 M for Hiding Side Effects

British Climate Scientist in hacked email controversy to step down

FDA Caught Buying 'Fresh' Aborted Baby Body Parts From Dealer


1 vaccine and you will be fine... oops... 2 vaccines and you will be fine.... oops 2 vaccines and a booster shot will make you fine... oops 2 vaccines and regular booster shots will make you fine.... oops - just get a vaccine once a year - but you will still get covid.

YUP! great high ethical standards... would you like more?

Literally none of what you said was on point.
I bet you don't even understand why not.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Yes, that wonderful standard of excellence that silences opposing viewpoints

By "opposing", do you perhaps mean "those views without evidence"?

, gives your information to the highest bidder and helps big brother know everything about you...

You seem to be confusing commercial enterprise and governmental intelligence practices (legal or otherwise) with the scientific process.

you better learn how to pray :D

Why?
Are you going to issue cosmic threats now?
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
The problem that I see in the above equation is that bodily autonomy stops when it is someone else's body.

Ow?

So I can knock you out and take your kidney to save my child?
After all, you are the only hypothetical match and if you don't give your kidney, the kid dies.
So I should be able to take your kidney regardless of what you feel about it, right?
After all, you have 2 and you can survive perfectly with only 1.

You believe that your right to bodily autonomy stops when it is someone else's body, correct?
 

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
You have a different sense of ethics.
To many people, a fetus is not a "baby".
And most scientists have nothing to do with that.
Once again, I see no better system.
Religion & government certainly aren't better,
what with their systematic lying, abuse, oppression,
& murder of babies, children, & adults.

Abortions were killing women in droves for hundred of years, long before medicine advanced far enough to be a relatively safe procedure.
Though some cultures preferred infanticide as a method of controlling the size and timing of their families...
I do not think returning to the times of back street abortions is in anyone's interest.

Abortions will continue, legal or regulated or unregulated.

Science helped save many women, abortions would have happened any way, just as they always have.
 

Clara Tea

Well-Known Member
To achieve recognition and acceptance, you need to have authority over Scientific Community. And to have authority, you need to have recognition. Elite is a closed club and there are no "social lifts" or "social ladders". Therefore, it is a great miracle of God if a good person receives recognition, glory, fame, and success.
 

Brickjectivity

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
To achieve recognition and acceptance, you need to have authority over Scientific Community. And to have authority, you need to have recognition. Elite is a closed club and there are no "social lifts" or "social ladders". Therefore, it is a great miracle of God if a good person receives recognition, glory, fame, and success.
Some people are concerned that we are moving towards a techno-feudal society -- towards a patronage system.

What about in publishing? Independent publishers are at a major disadvantage. Getting something published in trusted venues is not easy. Readers are in scarce supply. You need the blessing of critics and of librarians.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
When what?
When does "spirituality also helps with the material world :) We also adjust, correct and get better."?

When you say spirituality I suspect you mean religious faith/belief and not meditation and yoga. So apart from these practices when does religion help a person with the material world? L:et's note that humans exist in the material world and if they believe there is some "other" non-material world, THAT might be part of a problem of illusion and imagination.

As Jesus so well put it, "be it unto you according to your faith". You don't have to enjoy the benefits ;) But I love the results!
And what results do you think happens?
 

Clara Tea

Well-Known Member
To achieve recognition and acceptance, you need to have authority over Scientific Community. And to have authority, you need to have recognition. Elite is a closed club and there are no "social lifts" or "social ladders". Therefore, it is a great miracle of God if a good person receives recognition, glory, fame, and success.

Science forums attract primadonnas. They won't let anyone else post science posts because they want to be top dog. Often they have inferior educations. They try, in vain, to discredit others. These forums are certainly an elite closed club (they have friends that know that they have poor educations, but allow them to continue regardless). It is a social club, not a club of scientists.

Some science forums, like Yahoo Answers, have legitimate scientists, and they spend their time doing homework for lazy kids who post questions. These kids will never learn because they never do homework. Why, then, do legitimate scientists do their homework for them? Because many have retired and want to feel useful again. It is an ego trip.

I have answered questions on Yahoo Answers science forum, but I pick problems that I know are too hard for most to solve. Problems that might have a convenient trick to them. For example, someone asked how to find the current flowing through a three dimensional cube of resistors. I explained to them that it is a matter of symmetry and they can connect points of equal potential (that is, equal voltage). This causes the problem to break down to resistors in series and parallel (rather than a three dimensional problem). It is a matter of perception, rather than math.

In religious forums, there is a tendancy for non-scientists to use science to baffle others, then conclude that God exists. In Texas they have a saying..."if you can't win with facts, baffle 'em with bull." Since so few people know science, it is easy to fool the masses.

I am struck with the lack of scientific education of politicians. Many were speaking on the McLaughlin Group, but they made no sense. For example, they all expressed the need to fund science, but they didn't have a clue what science was all about. For example, Pat Buchanon was talking about solar system exploration, and he called it the universe. I don't hold that against him, but I worry about the funding of science projects.

An example of ignorant politicians: They canceled a project that turned a white flower purple. They didn't see the point of changing the color of a flower for millions of dollars. What they failed to understand was that, for the first time, scientists discovered genetic switches. These switches can cure cancer and other diseases. Unfortunately the uneducated have the purse strings (they pay for the projects).

You wrote that in the scientific community one needs "recognition" and science is an "elite closed club and there are no social lifts or social ladders." True. You have to be a legitimate scientist with legitimate research in order to get published.

Sadly, there are a lot of legitimate scientists who still can't get published. Einstein was said to be a mere patent clerk when he came up with amazing theories. He was lucky that the scientific community accepted his photoelectric effect (for which he won a Nobel prize in 1905--it established that electromagnetic radiation came in discrete packets, called photons, rather than continuous waves).

Sadly, the religious community thinks of the scientific community as the enemy. That is because scientists, like atheists, require proof before they believe. Yet, many scientists, in their personal lives, are highly religious. Enrico Fermi said that electrons move by the hand of God. So, scientists don't always require proof, nor are they necessarily atheists.

Scientists can help prove ideas of theists. There was a theory about Jericho being destroyed by an ice comet. It hit 14 miles away, and made a 5 foot layer of jumbled ash all the way to Jericho, and made microscopic diamonds in the soil. Those diamonds were made under tremdous heat or pressure, so a volcanic eruption or forest fire could not have made them. Of course virtually all diamonds are found in volcanoes, but that is because the carbon was there for millions of years under tremendous pressure and heat.

Another religious idea that science proves is that the age of the universe might well be 6,000 years. This is because special relativity says that time dilates at high speeds, and general relativity says that time dilates in strong gravitational fields. So, time for us might not be the same time for God.

So, I worry that theists, once in political offices, will remove science from the curriculum. That will send us back to the Dark Ages where everyone was ignorant. It was a time of starvation, superstition (witch burnings), and disease.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
The problem that I see in the above equation is that bodily autonomy stops when it is someone else's body. The baby in the womb is not her body.
So the zygote and fetus (baby) is not dependent on the mother's body, in your opinion? It has its own rights under the Constitution and law?

So personal preference isn't applicable unless the baby autonomy presents a danger to the autonomy of the body of the mother such as a fallopian tube pregnancy.
It's ironic that this IS a personal preference of yours. So YOUR personal preference has authority over the personal preference of a woman who has different preferences?


:) Then I just have the higher golden standard of ethics. :) (but just on these two subjects as I am not holier than thou)
So I take it you are in favor of policing policy changes so that innocent people aren't abused by cops?

And you support universal healthcare so that people don't die to lack of adequate healthcare (really just lack of money)?

And you support raising taxes on the wealthy so the USA can implement universal healthcare for everyone?

I'm curious how far your "higher golden standard of ethics" really goes.
 

Sand Dancer

Currently catless
Oh I wouldn't attach too much significance to that, I think it's heyday occurred mostly when people thought virgins were the pinnacle of volcanology. Indeed, placating imaginary deities, and placating volcanoes with virgins, seems equally successful given the evidence.

Religion is dying because we are running out of virgins.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
To achieve recognition and acceptance, you need to have authority over Scientific Community. And to have authority, you need to have recognition. Elite is a closed club and there are no "social lifts" or "social ladders". Therefore, it is a great miracle of God if a good person receives recognition, glory, fame, and success.

Authority is usually gained by being able to prove you are right. In science, theories are often dismissed by the elite until an experiment can be devise to validate the theory. Sometimes this happens many years after the theory is developed. Those who develop the means to test a theory usually do more to forward the progress of science than those who come up with the theories.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
To achieve recognition and acceptance, you need to have authority over Scientific Community. And to have authority, you need to have recognition. Elite is a closed club and there are no "social lifts" or "social ladders". Therefore, it is a great miracle of God if a good person receives recognition, glory, fame, and success.
Science is not a slave of authority. Piltdown men are finally exposed. Einstein was an Assistant Examiner, level III, in Swiss Patent office.
Spirituality also helps with the material world :) We also adjust, correct and get better.
Religions have no copy-right over spirituality.
Yes, that wonderful standard of excellence that silences opposing viewpoints, gives your information to the highest bidder and helps big brother know everything about you..
That is politics, business. Nothing to do with science. Abortion too has nothing to do with science. Science only tells you when it could be done and how, safely for the woman. Science does not ask a woman to have an abortion.
 
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