No social ladders any longer?

[metis]

We could start right here one the very first half a sentence...

Would you like to back that up?

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1 vaccine and you will be fine... oops... 2 vaccines and you will be fine.... oops 2 vaccines and a booster shot will make you fine... oops 2 vaccines and regular booster shots will make you fine.... oops - just get a vaccine once a year - but you will still get covid.

YUP! great high ethical standards... would you like more?

But that's not being fair at all, and one could take religion and point out how many charlatans and mistakes have been made.

Also, science is ongoing, thus new evidence can change theorems. Covid-19 was a new "baby" that was and is quite different than previous forms of the corona virus, so there's been a "learning curve". It is thoroughly disgusting how some politically oriented on the right have demonized Fauci and some other researchers, although I'm not implying that you have done this.

My wife & I got our shots, thus when we caught omicron earlier this month, we had relatively mild symptoms. Compare that to a husband and wife from our church that were hospitalized since Christmas and one of them is still in. Guess what their vaccination rate has been? Don't get me wrong, I certainly don't wish them any harm and do pray the heal soon since I know them very well.

Play fair!

 

[Aupmanyav]

There is no universally agreed position on marrying children.

No. There is none. In many cultures puberty is the minimum. If marriage takes place earlier than that, then some cultures do not send the girls to the house of their husbands before puberty (India - Gauna - Wikipedia). My grandmother was married at the age of seven. The Indian Parliament has raised the marriage age to 21 years in India (men as well as women). Who are you to decide what is proper and what is improper?

"Gauna is a northern Indian custom and the ceremony associated with the consummation of marriage. It is associated with the custom of child marriage. The ceremony takes place several years after marriage. Before the ceremony, the bride stays at her natal home. Marriage is considered only as a ritual union and conjugal life begins only after gauna; that is marriage is consummated only after the gauna ceremony."

 

[viole]

Yes, that wonderful standard of excellence that silences opposing viewpoints, gives your information to the highest bidder and helps big brother know everything about you...

you better learn how to pray

Well, what a great opportunity to show us how to pray properly. And show how much superior the spiritual world vs. imperfect science really is.

Could you please pray the virus out of existence?

That would render all vaccines, restrictions, science research, Pharma businesses, big bothers, vaccinations certificates, etc. totally superfluous. And I heard that if you sincerely pray in the name of Jesus, you can achieve anything.

So, how do you propose to start?

Ciao

- viole

 

[Kenny]

When does "spirituality also helps with the material world We also adjust, correct and get better."?

When you say spirituality I suspect you mean religious faith/belief and not meditation and yoga. So apart from these practices when does religion help a person with the material world? L:et's note that humans exist in the material world and if they believe there is some "other" non-material world, THAT might be part of a problem of illusion and imagination.

For examples:

1) I can't move off my bed because excruciating pain. Normally you would call for an ambulance... 5 minutes later I'm walking out of my bedroom door with no pain
2) Every 3 months or so, I would get within 5 minutes a sneezing and snot flying that came with a fever for about 24-48 hours. The first time they laid hands on me and it was gone. The second time they prayed for me over the phone and it was gone. The third time (because I understood the principles at that point) I prayed for myself and it was gone never to return
3) Was selling an office equipment that cost about 2500 + or - 200 depending on what was added to it. Got out of my car at a strip mall, took about 30 steps with equipment in hand and turned around saying "These little companies wouldn't need it and can't afford it". As I was walking and worshipping, I closed my eyes for about 2 seconds and saw a vision of a company with its name in an arc shape. Turned around and saw an insurance company that had its name in an arc shape. Went in and they were about to close on a competitors equipment and instead bought mine.

Have many more... but suffice to say that the material world has a higher authority, the spiritual world.

And what results do you think happens?

Depends on your faith. If you don't believe, nothing happens... just regular life.

 

[Kenny]

So the zygote and fetus (baby) is not dependent on the mother's body, in your opinion? It has its own rights under the Constitution and law?

Interesting you relegated down to a zygote.

Is a baby outside of the womb still dependent on people? Is a 1 1/2 pound baby in the womb a fetus but POP, now it is outside and considered a baby?

It's ironic that this IS a personal preference of yours. So YOUR personal preference has authority over the personal preference of a woman who has different preferences?

Personal???????? No, we are talking about rights of a person. If rights are personal, then, yes, it is personal.

So I take it you are in favor of policing policy changes so that innocent people aren't abused by cops?

And you support universal healthcare so that people don't die to lack of adequate healthcare (really just lack of money)?

And you support raising taxes on the wealthy so the USA can implement universal healthcare for everyone?

I'm curious how far your "higher golden standard of ethics" really goes.

Do you always create strawman issues to avoid topics?

 

[Kenny]

That is politics, business. Nothing to do with science. Abortion too has nothing to do with science. Science only tells you when it could be done and how, safely for the woman. Science does not ask a woman to have an abortion.

It can be politics.. but even science has its business and politics.

And tell that to the Nazi scientists that there is no ethics and then it is only when it can be done and how.

You need to try better than that.

 

[Kenny]

But that's not being fair at all, and one could take religion and point out how many charlatans and mistakes have been made.

Also, science is ongoing, thus new evidence can change theorems. Covid-19 was a new "baby" that was and is quite different than previous forms of the corona virus, so there's been a "learning curve". It is thoroughly disgusting how some politically oriented on the right have demonized Fauci and some other researchers, although I'm not implying that you have done this.

My wife & I got our shots, thus when we caught omicron earlier this month, we had relatively mild symptoms. Compare that to a husband and wife from our church that were hospitalized since Christmas and one of them is still in. Guess what their vaccination rate has been? Don't get me wrong, I certainly don't wish them any harm and do pray the heal soon since I know them very well.

Play fair!

My defense is a great offense

But back to the point...

I just want equal footing. Science makes mistakes, figures their mistakes, make adjustments for mistakes. By and large MOST are good people. Religious people make mistakes, figure their mistakes and makes adjustments for mistakes. By and large MOST are good people.

But let's not say that science has the edge on the golden standard of excellence.

 

[Kenny]

Well, what a great opportunity to show us how to pray properly. And show how much superior the spiritual world vs. imperfect science really is.

Could you please pray the virus out of existence?

That would render all vaccines, restrictions, science research, Pharma businesses, big bothers, vaccinations certificates, etc. totally superfluous. And I heard that if you sincerely pray in the name of Jesus, you can achieve anything.

So, how do you propose to start?

Ciao

- viole

Would love to share... but you said Ciao.

But be honest... did I say science was no good and not helpful? Or did you exaggerate on purpose or just ignorance.

 

[Sheldon]

Yes, that wonderful standard of excellence that silences opposing viewpoints, gives your information to the highest bidder and helps big brother know everything about you...

you better learn how to pray

Whataboutism
noun

1. the technique or practice of responding to an accusation or difficult question by making a counter-accusation or raising a different issue.

 

[Kenny]

Whataboutism
noun

1. the technique or practice of responding to an accusation or difficult question by making a counter-accusation or raising a different issue.

Hey! When it works, it works

 

[Revoltingest]

My defense is a great offense

But back to the point...

I just want equal footing. Science makes mistakes, figures their mistakes, make adjustments for mistakes. By and large MOST are good people. Religious people make mistakes, figure their mistakes and makes adjustments for mistakes. By and large MOST are good people.

But let's not say that science has the edge on the golden standard of excellence.

Big difference....

Science advances.
Religion merely changes.

Science can be wrong.
Religion is generally not even wrong, ie, non-disprovable claims,
eg, the number of gods, their powers, sin, angels, Satan. If
something cannot be disproven, then it's not science.

 

[F1fan]

For examples:

1) I can't move off my bed because excruciating pain. Normally you would call for an ambulance... 5 minutes later I'm walking out of my bedroom door with no pain
2) Every 3 months or so, I would get within 5 minutes a sneezing and snot flying that came with a fever for about 24-48 hours. The first time they laid hands on me and it was gone. The second time they prayed for me over the phone and it was gone. The third time (because I understood the principles at that point) I prayed for myself and it was gone never to return
3) Was selling an office equipment that cost about 2500 + or - 200 depending on what was added to it. Got out of my car at a strip mall, took about 30 steps with equipment in hand and turned around saying "These little companies wouldn't need it and can't afford it". As I was walking and worshipping, I closed my eyes for about 2 seconds and saw a vision of a company with its name in an arc shape. Turned around and saw an insurance company that had its name in an arc shape. Went in and they were about to close on a competitors equipment and instead bought mine.

Have many more... but suffice to say that the material world has a higher authority, the spiritual world.

So what are these stories supposed to prove? All it proves is that you attribute natural things to magic. Not exactly parting seas, are they?

As for your example 1, back in late October 2019 I was on a training ride. I'd won a cyclocross race earlier that day and the State Championships was the next week. Well a few miles from home I'm going though a yellow light and a van turned in front of me. The driver didn't;t see me coming. I t-boned the van at about 25 mph on my bike. I caused $1800 in damage. My bike had a broken shift lever but OK other than that. I was fine. But later that night both of my thighs locked up. I could not stand up, or go down stairs, nothing. That was it, a serious injury, and no way I could race the next weekend. So I go to bed. The next morning I wake up, and wow, I'm fine. No indication of any soreness or injury. None at all. I rode later that day and came close to setting a record on a hill climb. And the following week I won gold at States. So, does that suggest being an atheist brings a miracle recovery?

I've had four collisions with cars over the last decade, and always the driver's fault. Once was a head on collision with a Honda. They had to tow the car away. Every single time I was only slightly injured, and I always ride the next day in defiance to the gods trying to kill me. But I joke that my excellent luck is Just God intervening on behalf of an atheist.

Depends on your faith. If you don't believe, nothing happens... just regular life.

Or, if you don't believe, the thing that doesn't happen is the tricky thinking that the believer attributes God as the cause for ordinary events. Atheists are free from this tricky thinking, and the free of the confusion it can cause, as your examples reveal.

 

[F1fan]

Interesting you relegated down to a zygote.

Well that is a stage in development. Perhaps you are OK with aborting a zygote? You calling a few fertilized cells a few days after conception a "baby" is far from accurate, and totally used to misrepresent reality, and that's because it is an emotional issue for the right, not a reasoned argument and conclusion.

Is a baby outside of the womb still dependent on people? Is a 1 1/2 pound baby in the womb a fetus but POP, now it is outside and considered a baby?

Excellent, another misrepresentation. Recall that Roe V Wade made a notable issue of viability. That is about 21-24 weeks. That is whether a fetus can survive outside the womb even with special treatments. After viability is a whole new issue. Please try to stay focused on the nuance of what is being discussed.

Personal???????? No, we are talking about rights of a person. If rights are personal, then, yes, it is personal.

When you work to take away reproductive rights of women do you not think that will be personal to them? To you it might be an abstract concept (since you are male), a moral ideal dictated by your religious beliefs. But women take it very personal because you are working to take away liberties from them that has already been established by the Supreme Court.

Do you always create strawman issues to avoid topics?

I didn't impose an argument onto you, which is what a stray man is. I simply asked you some questions that will test your morality, and you opted to avoid answering. Could it be your answers would have exposed your moral views as problematic and political?

Seriously, do you think universal healthcare is a moral idea since it would help many get the care they need to avoid serious illness and death?

Wouldn't taxing the wealthy be a moral solution to covering all people?

 

[Aupmanyav]

It can be politics.. but even science has its business and politics.
And tell that to the Nazi scientists that there is no ethics and then it is only when it can be done and how.

True, but science progresses in spite of it. With Nazis, it was the accumulation of power in hands of one person, politics created Hitler.
I oppose abortion, like 'why were you not careful?', but allow it for certain situations. IMHO, Indian government has some sane rules about it (Abortion in India - Wikipedia).

 

[Kenny]

Big difference....

Science advances.
Religion merely changes.

Science can be wrong.
Religion is generally not even wrong, ie, non-disprovable claims,
eg, the number of gods, their powers, sin, angels, Satan.

I disagree...

Advances vs changes is a matter of semantics

 

[viole]

Would love to share... but you said Ciao.

But be honest... did I say science was no good and not helpful? Or did you exaggerate on purpose or just ignorance.

Ok. But you must believe the spiritual world is superior.

So, what about (properly) praying that virus out of existence? How do you do it?

- viole

 

[viole]

If diversity equates to accepting what is obviously wrong, then we are in a spiral downward on the issue of love. Just because one doesn't agree on an issue doesn't equate to accept a lower standard.

There is no universally agreed position on marrying children. Wouldn't your position mean that we should just accept it? Or do you have a golden standard that it is still wrong as I would with abortion.

It is so obviously wrong that virtually all countries in Europe allows it. So, even if you consider it wrong, not obvious at all. Therefore, its wrongness is only in the heads of a minority. An opinion, basically.

The obvious argument does not work given the fact that a lot of people disagree with you. I could equally say that it is obvious that Jesus doesn't exist, with the same exact justification.

Ciao

- viole

 

[Kenny]

Ok. But you must believe the spiritual world is superior.

So, what about (properly) praying that virus out of existence? How do you do it?

- viole

First... find the Covenant promise in scripture. This is the very first thing you do.

Let me know when you find it concerning your above question.

 

[Kenny]

It is so obviously wrong that virtually all countries in Europe allows it. So, even if you consider it wrong, not obvious at all. Therefore, its wrongness is only in the heads of a minority. An opinion, basically.

The obvious argument does not work given the fact that a lot of people disagree with you. I could equally say that it is obvious that Jesus doesn't exist, with the same exact justification.

Ciao

- viole

So... what you are saying is that since slavery was accepted in so many countries, slavery was right.

Got it!

Adios

 

[viole]

So... what you are saying is that since slavery was accepted in so many countries, slavery was right.

Got it!

Adios

Well, for sure it was not obviously wrong. I am not attacking the right/wrong label. I just try to find out why you say "obvious". Apparently, it is obvious only to you and a few others.

Anyway, your God condoned slavery.

Ciao

- viole