No Telescope, No Microscope

[outhouse]

Must be a lot of work bending every single piece of new information to fit a preformed conception of the world. I guess the internal dissonance of there not being a God protecting us as individuals is far greater for some than the internal dissonance of harboring totally contradictory sets of standards.

When you shove square blocks down a round hole all your life, it just seems like the right thing to do.

 

[Guy Threepwood]

That seems to vary from calculation to calculation. In most estimates, you are right: stars outnumber grains of sand by a large margin. I have seen one, however, that says the lower bound estimate of the number of stars could be comparable to an upper bound estimate for number of sand grains. It's very difficult to make a precise calculation because, well, where does a beach end and the mainland begin? How far down does a beach go until it hits bedrock?

Yes they vary, and there is always the Saganesque temptation to try to boggle us with the size of the universe no matter what

But numbers of each are so vast- that even being within one decimal place- as many estimates are- is amazingly close from the wider perspective- but as far as we can tell, the margins of error still allow them to be the exact same number.

 

[Guy Threepwood]

Must be a lot of work bending every single piece of new information to fit a preformed conception of the world. I guess the internal dissonance of there not being a God protecting us as individuals is far greater for some than the internal dissonance of harboring totally contradictory sets of standards.

We all have preformed conceptions entering these forums, and for the record mine was originally an atheist one. It would not be a very interesting forum if we all agreed would it? We have no peer pressure review system here!

And I appreciate the thoughtful debates. Have a good weekend all

 

[dust1n]

We all have preformed conceptions entering these forums, and for the record mine was originally an atheist one.

You are saying you have had an atheist performed conception on this forum, or in general, before ever arriving at the forum?

 

[Thief]

That's not true. The concept of 'Aether' was known to Ancient civilizations. While 'aether' is still wrong, it's less-wrong than the idea of a solid "dome" covering the (flat) earth.

now that you mention it.....
could the 'old guys' have suspected dark energy/matter?

 

[stevevw]

I struggle to understand why people of this time period, continue to believe in stories that originated in eras that did not have telescopes or microscopes. The most prominent world religions all started over ~1,500+ years ago, with many doubling that. Think about that for a minute...

They did not have telescopes, and as a result many believed that the earth was the center of the cosmos. The sun and stars revolved around the earth, and creation was centered on earth. They did not understand what a star consisted of, how far away they were, or how big the cosmos actually was. They had no idea about the speed of light, black holes, dark matter, or what happens to a star once it goes super nova.

Because of various mythologies, heaven was thought to be "up" and hell (hades, etc.) was thought to be "down." They did not have the capabilities of flight, especially space flight, and had no way of knowing what was beyond the earth. Heck, they could not even soar through the clouds like we can today.

Nor did they have microscopes. They did not have the level of scientific knowledge that we have today, especially medical science. There are many passages in the Christian Bible that talk about various "demonic possessions," but the truth is that those possessions were illnesses or diseases, and those ancient people simply did not understand them (like epilepsy). They had no idea what bacteria or viruses were, or how they were spread.

So how is it that modern humans place their faith on the writings of such primitive, uneducated people?

We dont need to have microscopes or telescopes to believe in God. The bible actually tells of the universe and the beginning of existence and time. It doesn't go into a scientific explanation but you dont need that to believe. There are many people today who just dont understand science and things like genetics or physics but they can still have an understanding of life and believe in God.

Thank God that salvation isn't based on how smart we are or how much knowledge we have about science. Otherwise there would be a lot of people who have no chance. In fact in some ways the Bible tells us that worldly wisdom and thinking can be a barrier to salvation. mans wisdom of thinking that nature and himself have all the answers will cause him to have a false hope that he can solve everything and doesn't need salvation or God. Thinks like power, money and materialism causes people to lose faith and trust in this world. Whereas the bible tells us that true peace and life is in other things not of this world.

Personally I enjoy science and learning about the universe, genetics and physics. It allows me to have a deeper appreciation of Gods creative powers. I believe the more we look into how things work the more we see Gods amazing abilities. Like with quantum physics where all the normal causes and effects act beyond the logical ways classical physics work. All the calculations go out the window the closer we get to how existence came into being. Like with genetics how we see the complexity of design that goes beyond any scientific explanation that occurred through a natural self creating process. But like I said thankfully as some havnt got the ability to understand salvation isn't based on this and the simple message of Gods love through His son Jesus is enough to understand.

 

[Machavelle]

buddha taught to believe only what makes sense to you and your 5 senses, that therefore fits into modern science.

 

[Baroodi]

Even if We opened out to them a gate to heaven, and they were to ascend
They would only say: "Our eyes have been obscuredt: Nay, we have been bewitched by sorcery."
Al Hijr 14-15
Nobel Quran is telling us since its revelation more than 14 centuries ago if the infidels are to ascendup in the sky eyes will be in complete darkness; these people who ascend will say; our visions were obscured; as quoted in the above two verses
This reflect the fact known to us after the discoveries of modern science and astronomy that outside the earth atmosphere it is completely dark and the distant stars are only seen as we see the sun
The unlettered Mohammed, peace be upon him, can't tell this from himself at that time. Any one who has minds should take the lesson and come to know the very clear facts about his great message; no God but Allah and Mohammed is his messenger, the last to be. Allah Akbar ( God is the greater)

 

[Neo Deist]

We dont need to have microscopes or telescopes to believe in God.

I agree. I am a deist.

...the simple message of Gods love through His son Jesus is enough to understand.

And there, we disagree...at least if you believe in Jesus as God incarnate.

 

[paarsurrey]

I struggle to understand why people of this time period, continue to believe in stories that originated in eras that did not have telescopes or microscopes. The most prominent world religions all started over ~1,500+ years ago, with many doubling that. Think about that for a minute...
They did not have telescopes, and as a result many believed that the earth was the center of the cosmos. The sun and stars revolved around the earth, and creation was centered on earth. They did not understand what a star consisted of, how far away they were, or how big the cosmos actually was. They had no idea about the speed of light, black holes, dark matter, or what happens to a star once it goes super nova.
Because of various mythologies, heaven was thought to be "up" and hell (hades, etc.) was thought to be "down." They did not have the capabilities of flight, especially space flight, and had no way of knowing what was beyond the earth. Heck, they could not even soar through the clouds like we can today.
Nor did they have microscopes. They did not have the level of scientific knowledge that we have today, especially medical science. There are many passages in the Christian Bible that talk about various "demonic possessions," but the truth is that those possessions were illnesses or diseases, and those ancient people simply did not understand them (like epilepsy). They had no idea what bacteria or viruses were, or how they were spread.
So how is it that modern humans place their faith on the writings of such primitive, uneducated people?

It is very simple
For belief in God, no telescope or microscope is required. Man is as incapacitated with all these modern instruments- the tools of physical exploration as man was when man learnt to express his thoughts, with the grace of God, with a language without which there would have existed no science. Man errs since inception and is errant the same way now. Right?
Regards

 

[FearGod]

I struggle to understand why people of this time period, continue to believe in stories that originated in eras that did not have telescopes or microscopes. The most prominent world religions all started over ~1,500+ years ago, with many doubling that. Think about that for a minute...

They did not have telescopes, and as a result many believed that the earth was the center of the cosmos. The sun and stars revolved around the earth, and creation was centered on earth. They did not understand what a star consisted of, how far away they were, or how big the cosmos actually was. They had no idea about the speed of light, black holes, dark matter, or what happens to a star once it goes super nova.

Because of various mythologies, heaven was thought to be "up" and hell (hades, etc.) was thought to be "down." They did not have the capabilities of flight, especially space flight, and had no way of knowing what was beyond the earth. Heck, they could not even soar through the clouds like we can today.

Nor did they have microscopes. They did not have the level of scientific knowledge that we have today, especially medical science. There are many passages in the Christian Bible that talk about various "demonic possessions," but the truth is that those possessions were illnesses or diseases, and those ancient people simply did not understand them (like epilepsy). They had no idea what bacteria or viruses were, or how they were spread.

So how is it that modern humans place their faith on the writings of such primitive, uneducated people?

How the ignorant humans survived from the harmful bacteria and viruses ?
Today we have medicine and knowledge but how the ancient people survived
that we're here today ?

 

[Neo Deist]

It is very simple
For belief in God, no telescope or microscope is required. Man is as incapacitated with all these modern instruments- the tools of physical exploration as man was when man learnt to express his thoughts, with the grace of God, with a language without which there would have existed no science. Man errs since inception and is errant the same way now. Right?
Regards

You seem to be confusing a belief in God with the belief in the fairy tales found in the Bible. I firmly believe in God, hence deism.

 

[Parsimony]

How the ignorant humans survived from the harmful bacteria and viruses ?
Today we have medicine and knowledge but how the ancient people survived
that we're here today ?

It's called an immune system. Not to mention that droves of people have died in the past due to disease. Poverty-stricken people in today's world are also highly vulnerable to disease because they can't access medicine that others can afford.

 

[s13ep]

So how is it that modern humans place their faith on the writings of such primitive, uneducated people?

Life is to be lived; not to be educated.

There are many things to learn off of the academic path, and many different forms of nature than man-made technology.

The moral of the story is, "the telescope leads to the nuclear bomb", why would we put such trust in Government-funded academia?

 

[FearGod]

It's called an immune system. Not to mention that droves of people have died in the past due to disease. Poverty-stricken people in today's world are also highly vulnerable to disease because they can't access medicine that others can afford.

Did we survive because of the immune system or because of medicine ?
What if the viruses were unbeatable ?
Was it due to coincidences or someone planned for human to survive on earth ?

 

[Demonslayer]

It is very simple
For belief in God, no telescope or microscope is required.

We dont need to have microscopes or telescopes to believe in God.

I think you two missed the point of the OP. Of course no telescope or microscope is required to believe in God. The point was once we had these things, and the knowledge they lend to us, how could anyone maintain their belief in God? The point is you'd think you'd have to be mired in ancient ignorance to continue to grasp on to ancient explanations of things.

Today we know Down's Syndrome is not demonic possession, therefore instead of murdering and torturing those afflicted with the disease like they did 1000 years ago, we care for them and treat them kindly.

Today we know how stars are formed, we don't need the idea of a cosmic magician creating great sky-lamps for his human ant farm.

Today we understand that a solar eclipse is when the moon moves between us and the sun, nothing more. It is not a giant frog eating the sun as the ancient Vietnamese used to believe, a wolf eating the sun as the Vikings once thought, or a dragon eating the sun as the ancient Chinese believed. It is not, as the Hindu faith once said, the severed head of Rahu, chopped off for the crime of drinking ambrosia, rolling in front of the sun. Nor is it a warning sign from angry Gods that the cosmic chit is about to hit the celestial fan. And no matter how strong your faith, gathering the people of the village to run outside during an solar eclipse, banging pots and pans together to scare off the demons that are causing the darkness, will have no effect because a solar eclipse is when the moon moves between us and the sun, nothing more.

Telescopes and microscopes, in part literally, but more importantly symbolically, have given us enough knowledge to move past the God explanation for our universe. It's up to each of us to come to that understanding.

The OP wonders, why are so many people still running outside banging pots and pans together when they see a solar eclipse??

 

[Demonslayer]

Did we survive because of the immune system or because of medicine

It depends on which of the thousands of diseases you're talking about. For example Polio destroyed the lives of hundreds of thousands of children, despite the praying and begging to God that all the parents did, until humans invented the vaccine and now we don't have to deal with Polio any more.

What if the viruses were unbeatable ?

So far AIDS is unbeatable, but we're working on it. Surely God isn't doing anything about it.

 

[outhouse]

why would we put such trust in Government-funded academia?

Because placing faith in mythology can be primitive and barabric

 

[s13ep]

Because placing faith in mythology can be primitive and barabric

You sound just like a politician.

 

[outhouse]

You sound just like a politician.

Anyone who refuses academic knowledge is living fanaticism and fundamentalism.

That combines ignorance and mythology which often leads to violence, its never good.


Its sad in this modern day, people accept mythology over education.