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Noah's Arc and the Flood?

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
You must not know what Celtic means.

I know very well what Celtic means. There are no native Celtic world flood myths recorded by Celts. Later compilations recorded by Christian monks are not the original Celtic myths,

Likewise the Chinese stories of catastrophic floods do not represent world floods, and are not considered Divinely caused. They are stories of catastrophic river valley flood, and one ancient flood in particular which has been documented by geologic research.
 
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shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
What are you talking about? Monks recorded extant myths, and there were Celtic monks. You aren't even making sense.

No in this case. There is known record of Celts recording a world flood myth.

Again . . .

Likewise the Chinese stories of catastrophic floods do not represent world floods, and are not considered Divinely caused. They are stories of catastrophic river valley floods, and one ancient flood in particular which has been documented by geologic research.

Also, Japan mythology does not include a world flood myth, even though the Japanese Islands are subject frequent catastrophic tsunamis.
 
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shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Again, you must not know what Celtic means, or "flood myth".

We will have to agree to disagree here, because in my view the Celts did not record a flood myth prior to the Christian domination of the British Isles and Europe

Again . . .

Likewise the Chinese stories of catastrophic floods do not represent world floods, and are not considered Divinely caused. They are stories of catastrophic river valley floods, and one ancient flood in particular which has been documented by geologic research.

Also, Japan mythology does not include a world flood myth, even though the Japanese Islands are subject frequent catastrophic tsunamis.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Fresh water sources hosted ancient civilization. Such sources flood, sometimes catastrophically, and it is not at all surprising that stories inspired by specific events would eventually shed specificity relating to time and place, conflate, and serve as meta-narratives of an over-arching folk history. There is little new here.
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
Actually many of the flood myths of different cultures are related to actual local catastrophic floods such as the catastrophic flood recording in Chinese ancient records. It has been documented to a specific catastrophic flood of the Yellow River.
^

This article from Discover has some examples of great floods from the past Biblical-Type Floods Are Real, and They're Absolutely Enormous | DiscoverMagazine.com
^

Fossil deposition is entirely consistent with deep geological history, and entirely inconsistent with deposition in a single flood event.

Fossils from a given time period will be similar, no matter what altitude they're found at. Landforms rise and fall, by well understood mechanisms.

Flooding leaves a distinct geological signature. There have been many floods, including some truly massive ones as ice dams left over from the Pleistocene gave way, but no "world flood."
^
Each flood deposition in the Tigris Euphrates Valley is distinct, bounded and dated. No, they do not extend byond the vally. More references that document this will follow.
^

Enormous, yes, but specifically local or regional and defined by a none natural specific cause. These floods occurred at different times in recent geologic history.
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Source: Lost Civilization May Have Existed Beneath the Persian
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What precisely are you talking about? Your one line sentences are too brief to make any sense. What soft fossils? There no soft fossils. What we have are a few impressions of sift bodies on clay or mud. The mud itself hardened and petrified, preserving the impressions. The soft bodies themselves did not survive at all.
Your altitude change question has been answered. Which part of the answer did you not understand? Let me be emphatic. In the last 3 billion years, there has never been a time when large dry land continents did not exist. Every age has hundreds of sediments and mineral deposits that ONLY form on dry lands, rivers, lakes, coasts and deserts. And during the time humans lived, last million years, sea levels have been lower than what is today... as much of water had been locked up in giant ice sheets. There has not been a global flood, and that is 100% certain.

^

Complete hodge podge mess of contradictions.
 
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shawn001

Well-Known Member
COSMOLOGICAL OR GEOLOGICAL FLOD MYTH?

Of course we have tectonic and earthquake motions on the Earth which over time have deposited all kinds of fossile material in all geological levels on the Earth.



Indeed so. But I wouldn´t call such historical events for "myths" as in the Myths of Creation which is closely connected to the Flood Myths. IMO this myth deals with a cosmogonical and cosmological description of the creation of the local cosmos, describing and marking this with all kinds of symbolics found on and above the Earth. This demands of course significant knowledge of both areas and in the case of the creation story, also a mythical knowledge of the celestial imageries.

We all live on the same planet Earth, in the same Solar System, in the same Milky Way galaxy and in the same local part of the observable Universe. This fact provides the very similar global Stories of Creation and to a large extend also the similar symbolics.

Take for instants the imagery of the Milky Way grey/white band and its contours, which is observable all around the Earth. How would our ancestors describe this? Of course they used different phenomena from their local area.

This is why the Milky Way got it´s milky name, taken both from the female and animal milky qualities. They of course also used their local river in order to depict the celestial Milky Way structure. And because of the large Milky Way contours floating on the night Sky, our ancestors called this: The Heavenly River of Milk. the Great River or the Great Flood in the Sky,

- If having no clues of the celestial myths and its cosmological symbolism, modern scholars of course have no other choises than to read the celestial tellings as geographical matters only. In this way The Celestial Flood which runs all around and above the Earth is misinterpreted as a geological and geographical flood running all over and on the Earth.

My conclusion:
The Flood Myth has nothing to do with any "divine and dualistic revenge on humans". It is a very natural and cosmological description of the celestial imagery of the Milky Way River where the Noa Arc resembles the hemisphere crescent contours of the Milky Way "sailing on the celestial river" between the entire celestial imagery of animals and humans.

Some Links:
Milky Way (mythology) - Wikipedia
List of names for the Milky Way - Wikipedia
Flood myth - Wikipedia
List of flood myths - Wikipedia
Ancient Science. The Ancient and native Way of Knowledge


"Take for instants the imagery of the Milky Way grey/white band and its contours, which is observable all around the Earth."

Just for the information but it's called "The Galactic Plane." where we can see "The Galactic Equator"
 

shawn001

Well-Known Member
^


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Complete hodge podge mess of cotradictions.

The Missoula floods are an absolute fact!

"The impact from Glacial Lake Missoula and the Missoula floods can be seen in parts of Montana, Idaho, Washington, and Oregon. Testifying to the cataclysm are the ancient shorelines, ripple marks, scoured lakes, dry channels, falls, and flood debris that are still visible after nearly 12,000 years. Without seeing this evidence it is hard to imagine the enormity of the geologic event.

Glacial Lake Missoula and the Ice Age Floods
 

shawn001

Well-Known Member
Flood stories are from all over, the sea fossils I have found at higher elevation, indicate a flood. The standard explanation is that the land folded up from underneath; great theory, but then why arent those fossils found at lower altitude, in the same region. If they are found, they should be in far more quantity. If the water level was higher, then that refutes the argument that the sea level couldnt have gotten that high.

"If the water level was higher, then that refutes the argument that the sea level couldnt have gotten that high."

There are a lot of reasons millions of year old fossils have been found in abundance at every elevation including below current sea levels.

"The standard explanation is that the land folded up from underneath; great theory,"

You mean Plate tectonics. Which is one reason there are fossils found at the top of Mt Everest above 25,000 feet.

"
LIGHT ROCKS ARE PUSHED UP AS HIGH PEAKS
Heavier rock is pushed back down into the earth's mantle at the point of contact, but lighter rock, like limestone and sandstone, is pushed upward to form the towering mountains.


At the tops of the highest peaks, like Mount Everest, it is possible to find 400-million-year-old fossils of sea creatures and shells that were deposited at the bottoms of shallow tropical seas. Now they are exposed on the roof of the world, over 25,000 feet above sea level."

Understanding the Geology of Mount Everest

Or fossils in Eygpt:

The Valley of the Whales

"There is another even more ancient Egypt that is known to very few people. The Fayoum area contains some of the best-preserved paleontological sites in the world one of which is Wadi Hitan or the Valley of Whales. This is a remote valley in the Western Desert of Egypt. At 150 kilometers southwest of Cairo, the valley is located near the Al-Katrani mountain range, a well-known and valuable geological site for its rare vertebrate fossils and megafossils.

"There is considerable evidence which indicates that the basin of Wadi Hitan was submerged in water some 40 to 50 million years ago. At that time, the so-called Tethys Sea reached far south of the existing Mediterranean. The Tethys Sea is assumed to have retreated north and over the years deposited thick sediments of sandstone and limestone visible in rock formations in Wadi Hitan.


There more than one one place Earth where it hasn't rained for some millions of years.

Both in the Dry Valleys in Antarctica and in the Atacama desert.

WHAT IS THE DRIEST PLACE ON EARTH?

"The driest place on Earth is in Antarctica in an area called the Dry Valleys, which have seen no rain for nearly 2 million years. There is absolutely no precipitation in this region and it makes up a 4800 square kilometer region of almost no water, ice or snow. Water features include Lake Vida, Lake Vanda, Lake Bonney and the Onyx River. There is no net gain of water. The reason why this region receives no rain is due to Katabatic winds, winds from the mountains that are so heavy with moisture that gravity pulls them down and away from the Valleys."

What is the Driest Place on Earth? - Universe Today


How The Earth Was Made:
Driest Place On Earth

"A look at the driest place on Earth, the Atacama Desert in South America which is 50 times dryer than Death Valley; and how even in such a barren place, bacteria can still thrive."


The above video is great and if you want to see something truly amazing at least watch at 7 minutes in, as there might be a place there where is hasn't rained for at least 25 or more million years. But the Atacama was formed by Plate tectonics around 150 million years ago.

There is a problem with a floods that happen after the last ice age and millions of year old fossils. There have been many ancient salt water sea beds over the history of Earth.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
^

Complete hodge podge mess of cotradictions.

No contradictions whatsoever.

Still waiting for a coherent response.

Again . . .

Likewise the Chinese stories of catastrophic floods do not represent world floods, and are not considered Divinely caused. They are stories of catastrophic river valley floods, and one ancient flood in particular which has been documented by geologic research.

Also, Japan mythology does not include a world flood myth, even though the Japanese Islands are subject frequent catastrophic tsunamis.
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
No contradictions whatsoever.
Contradictions because you are at once stating no "world wide"flood, assuming world wide means what it states in the torah; I suppose you have the hebrew to back that up, and also stating that there was flooding in a time period /ice age, that is within mythic storytelling. So which is it?
I don't think you understand how myth works, .
 
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shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
The Missoula floods are an absolute fact!

"The impact from Glacial Lake Missoula and the Missoula floods can be seen in parts of Montana, Idaho, Washington, and Oregon. Testifying to the cataclysm are the ancient shorelines, ripple marks, scoured lakes, dry channels, falls, and flood debris that are still visible after nearly 12,000 years. Without seeing this evidence it is hard to imagine the enormity of the geologic event.

Glacial Lake Missoula and the Ice Age Floods

True, but how does this relate to the issue of the thread????

The glacial flood is related to Ice Age and specific glacial dam failure. I can name a few other flood events that also occurred locally like the Ohio River where the river broke through at Sistersville, WV and flooded the Ohio River valley with glacial out wash and changed the course of the upper reaches of the Ohio River Valley.

There are many local and regional glacial age floods are not remotely related to the Biblical description of the flood in any remote time frame, because no humans were around at the time these Ice Age glacial floods took place.
 

shawn001

Well-Known Member
There is a big difference between an "outburst flood" and a flood from "rain." The biblical narrative of "Noah's flood" would flatten everything and killed everything including Noah, by air pressure, and asphyxiation. Not to mention there are two different stories in the Bible. As well as possibly and likely earlier versions such as The Epic Of Gilgamesh. Which would include the city of UR.

The Missoula floods were massive. But they may have found the possible culprit for the flood story as this flood happened some 8200 years ago and is quite likely the biggest flood we know about on Earth, and evidence supports it making England an Island and formed the black sea. This whole video is about it really but they start really going into depth at about 30 minutes in. 1.2 times all the water of the great lakes an ancient lake ice age lake, called LAKE AGASSIZ.


How the Earth Works: Ice Age of Hellfire!

"Geologist, Martin Pepper, and biologist, Liz Bonnin, explore North America to find evidence of the most powerful geological events the Earth has ever seen"

 

shawn001

Well-Known Member
True, but how does this relate to the issue of the thread????

The glacial flood is related to Ice Age and specific glacial dam failure. I can name a few other flood events that also occurred locally like the Ohio River where the river broke through at Sistersville, WV and flooded the Ohio River valley with glacial out wash and changed the course of the upper reaches of the Ohio River Valley.

There are many local and regional glacial age floods are not remotely related to the Biblical description of the flood in any remote time frame, because no humans were around at the time these Ice Age glacial floods took place.

Wasn't directed at you.

Where is was mentioned that all the evidence was a "Complete hodge podge mess of cotradictions."

The Missoula floods were REALLY massive and yes happened to early and did not affect the entire globe.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Contradictions because you are at once stating no "world wide"flood, assuming world wide means what it states in the torah; I suppose you have the hebrew to back that up, and also stating that there was flooding in a time period /ice age, that is within mythic storytelling. So which is it?
Simply because the chinese flood narrative does not ascribe deity causation, so what? I don't think you understand how myth works, .

The Chinese flood events describe as a naturally occurring flood of the Yellow River and documented geologically documented river flood event, and nothing beyond that. The Chines record show that it was a river valley flood event associated with the Yellow River,

All these food events are not related to the Biblical account, and are geologically documented as regional and local events ONLY associated with Ice Age glacial events.
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
Wasn't directed at you.

Where is was mentioned that all the evidence was a "Complete hodge podge mess of cotradictions."

The Missoula floods were REALLY massive and yes happened to early and did not affect the entire globe.
I think you're misunderstanding the thread. My argument, is that large floods took place. Now, these are often ascribed to mythic flood stories/related to the Biblical flood narrative. What aside from theology are you actually disagreeing with me about?
 

james bond

Well-Known Member
No contradictions whatsoever.

Still waiting for a coherent response.

Again . . .

Likewise the Chinese stories of catastrophic floods do not represent world floods, and are not considered Divinely caused. They are stories of catastrophic river valley floods, and one ancient flood in particular which has been documented by geologic research.

Also, Japan mythology does not include a world flood myth, even though the Japanese Islands are subject frequent catastrophic tsunamis.

What a liar. You contradicted yourself. There are stories all over the world of a flood. This is based on the real global flood of Noah. What you're doing is setting up a straw man. I've heard better and more interesting local flood stories.
 

shawn001

Well-Known Member
I think you're misunderstanding the thread. My argument, is that large floods took place. Now, these are often ascribed to mythic flood stories/related to the Biblical flood narrative. What aside from theology are you actually disagreeing with me about?

I am actually not.

"My "argument, is that large floods took place. Now, these are often ascribed to mythic flood stories/related to the Biblical flood narrative."

Agreed.

However, there was no biblical flood as described in the Bible.
 
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