shawn001
Well-Known Member
"This is based on the real global flood of Noah."
There was NO "real Noah Global flood", it has already been proven extensively.
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Noah's Arc and the Flood?
- Thread starter shunyadragon
- Start date
"This is based on the real global flood of Noah."
There was NO "real Noah Global flood", it has already been proven extensively.
james bond
Well-Known Member
Atheists are usually wrong.
shawn001
Well-Known Member
I am not an Atheists for one.
However, ice core samples going back a million years and the above information I posted on the two driest places on Earth are just a few examples of how the "Noah flood" did not happen and could not have happened. Please show scientific evidence otherwise. As I said it's a done deal, no Noah flood.
Desert Snake
Veteran Member
Ironically the Biblical narrative is one of the best to actually describe something like a world wide flood. Seems like the attempt to disprove is pedaling backwards. But ok, that's your opinion.
shawn001
Well-Known Member
Why are there two flood story accounts?
"In the story of the flood, in Genesis chapters 6 to 9, there seem to be two accounts that have been combined, and they have a number of inconsistencies. For example, how many of each species of animals is Noah supposed to bring into the ark? One text says two, a pair of every kind of animal. Another text says seven pairs of the clean animals and only two of the unclean animals."
Writers of the Bible — NOVA | PBS
Not an Atheist, but "doctorate from Harvard in Hebrew Bible" and "One of the premier biblical scholars in the country."
"
WHAT TO NOTICE:
In the first place, it is significant that it is possible to separate the text into two continuous stories like this. And it is even more significant that we can find this throughout the first five books of the Hebrew Bible, also known as the Five Books of Moses. Thus:
The P text here always calls the deity "God" (16 times). The J text always calls the deity by the proper name "YHWH" (10 times).
The P text uses the word "expired." The J text uses the word "died."
In J, it rains for 40 days and nights, and the water recedes for 40 days. In P, the whole process adds up to a calendar year.
In J, Noah releases a dove. In P, he releases a raven.
P has two of each species of animal, a male and a female. J has 14 (seven pairs) of each species of the pure animals (animals that may be sacrificed) and only two of the animals that are not pure. This is important because J ends the story with Noah making a sacrifice—so he needs more than two of each animal or he would make a species extinct!
P has details of cubits, dates, and ages. J does not.
In J, God is personal and involved: known by a personal name ("YHWH"), personally closing the ark, personally smelling Noah's sacrifice, described as "grieved to his heart." In P, God's name is not yet known ("God," in Hebrew Elohim, is not a name; it is what God is), and there are none of the anthropomorphic descriptions that are found in J.
ABOUT THE AUTHOR
Richard Elliott Friedman earned his doctorate from Harvard in Hebrew Bible. He is Davis Professor of Jewish Studies at the University of Georgia and Katzin Professor of Jewish Civilization Emeritus of the University of California, San Diego. One of the premier biblical scholars in the country, Friedman has written many books on biblical studies, including The Disappearance of God, Commentary on the Torah, Who Wrote the Bible? and The Bible With Sources Revealed. This feature was adapted from The Bible With Sources Revealedwith kind permission of the author and publisher, HarperSanFrancisco.
NOVA | The Bible's Buried Secrets | Who Wrote the Flood Story? | PBS
"In the story of the flood, in Genesis chapters 6 to 9, there seem to be two accounts that have been combined, and they have a number of inconsistencies. For example, how many of each species of animals is Noah supposed to bring into the ark? One text says two, a pair of every kind of animal. Another text says seven pairs of the clean animals and only two of the unclean animals."
Writers of the Bible — NOVA | PBS
Not an Atheist, but "doctorate from Harvard in Hebrew Bible" and "One of the premier biblical scholars in the country."
"
WHAT TO NOTICE:
In the first place, it is significant that it is possible to separate the text into two continuous stories like this. And it is even more significant that we can find this throughout the first five books of the Hebrew Bible, also known as the Five Books of Moses. Thus:
The P text here always calls the deity "God" (16 times). The J text always calls the deity by the proper name "YHWH" (10 times).
The P text uses the word "expired." The J text uses the word "died."
In J, it rains for 40 days and nights, and the water recedes for 40 days. In P, the whole process adds up to a calendar year.
In J, Noah releases a dove. In P, he releases a raven.
P has two of each species of animal, a male and a female. J has 14 (seven pairs) of each species of the pure animals (animals that may be sacrificed) and only two of the animals that are not pure. This is important because J ends the story with Noah making a sacrifice—so he needs more than two of each animal or he would make a species extinct!
P has details of cubits, dates, and ages. J does not.
In J, God is personal and involved: known by a personal name ("YHWH"), personally closing the ark, personally smelling Noah's sacrifice, described as "grieved to his heart." In P, God's name is not yet known ("God," in Hebrew Elohim, is not a name; it is what God is), and there are none of the anthropomorphic descriptions that are found in J.
ABOUT THE AUTHOR
Richard Elliott Friedman earned his doctorate from Harvard in Hebrew Bible. He is Davis Professor of Jewish Studies at the University of Georgia and Katzin Professor of Jewish Civilization Emeritus of the University of California, San Diego. One of the premier biblical scholars in the country, Friedman has written many books on biblical studies, including The Disappearance of God, Commentary on the Torah, Who Wrote the Bible? and The Bible With Sources Revealed. This feature was adapted from The Bible With Sources Revealedwith kind permission of the author and publisher, HarperSanFrancisco.
NOVA | The Bible's Buried Secrets | Who Wrote the Flood Story? | PBS
shawn001
Well-Known Member
"Ironically the Biblical narrative is one of the best to actually describe something like a world wide flood"
Or the one that was almost certainly written before it, The Epic Of Gilgamesh, because they both share a lot of the same information and there is a good case the "Noah Flood" story borrowed from it, which could be a reason there are inconsistencies in the Biblical account itself, as there are no inconsistencies in the Epic Of Gilgamesh account, which would imply it was written first as well as dating.
There are something called "facts" that actually matter. Again an Outburst flood is MUCH different than a global flood caused by rain.
However, neither of the stories are accurate in the slightest.
shawn001
Well-Known Member
I have to ask syncretic and James Bond, do they have evidence it's rained in the Antartic "Dry Valleys" in the last million years?
A problem is we can point out dry spots everywhere on Earth for over 10,000 years.
The World's Oldest Shoes
Fort Rock Sandals
No water damage!.
A problem is we can point out dry spots everywhere on Earth for over 10,000 years.
The World's Oldest Shoes
Fort Rock Sandals
No water damage!.
james bond
Well-Known Member
I'm not sure which versions this writer is referring to.
The author of Genesis is unknown, but believed to be Moses.
"The Lord Jesus Himself and the Gospel writers said that the Law was given by Moses (Mark 10:3; Luke 24:27; John 1:17), and the uniform tradition of the Jewish scribes and early Christian fathers, and the conclusion of conservative scholars to the present day, is that Genesis was written by Moses."
Who wrote the first book of the Bible - Genesis? • ChristianAnswers.Net
"Noah appears in Genesis 5:29 as the son of Lamech and ninth in descent from Adam. In the story of the Deluge (Genesis 6:11–9:19), he is represented as the patriarch who, because of his blameless piety, was chosen by God to perpetuate the human race after his wicked contemporaries had perished in the Flood. A righteous man, Noah “found favour in the eyes of the Lord” (Genesis 6:8). Thus, when God beheld the corruption of the earth and determined to destroy it, he gave Noah divine warning of the impending disaster and made a covenant with him, promising to save him and his family. Noah was instructed to build an ark, and in accordance with God’s instructions he took into the ark male and female specimens of all the world’s species of animals, from which the stocks might be replenished. Consequently, according to this narrative, the entire surviving human race descended from Noah’s three sons. Such a genealogy sets a universal frame within which the subsequent role of Abraham, as the father of Israel’s faith, could assume its proper dimensions.
The story of the Flood has close affinities with Babylonian traditions of apocalyptic floods in which Utnapishtim plays the part corresponding to that of Noah. These mythologies are the source of such features of the biblical Flood story as the building and provisioning of the ark, its flotation, and the subsidence of the waters, as well as the part played by the human protagonist. Tablet XI of the Gilgamesh epic introduces Utnapishtim, who, like Noah, survived cosmic destruction by heeding divine instruction to build an ark.
The religious meaning of the Flood is conveyed after Noah’s heroic survival. He then built an altar on which he offered burnt sacrifices to God, who then bound himself to a pact never again to curse the earth on man’s account. God then set a rainbow in the sky as a visible guarantee of his promise in this covenant. God also renewed his commands given at creation but with two changes: man could now kill animals and eat meat, and the murder of a man would be punished by men.
Despite the tangible similarities of the Mesopotamian and biblical myths of the flood, the biblical story has a unique Hebraic perspective. In the Babylonian story the destruction of the flood was the result of a disagreement among the gods; in Genesis it resulted from the moral corruption of human history. The primitive polytheism of the Mesopotamian versions is transformed in the biblical story into an affirmation of the omnipotence and benevolence of the one righteous God. Again, following their survival, Utnapishtim and his wife are admitted to the circle of the immortal gods; but Noah and his family are commanded to undertake the renewal of history."
Noah | biblical figure
I would go with the version where Noah releases the raven first and then the dove. I had a discussion about it here -- Verifiable evidence for creationism?.
Why did Noah release a raven? Why did he later release a dove (Genesis 8)?
james bond
Well-Known Member
Ha ha. Weak sauce. Go peddle your old sandals elsewhere. We built Noah's Ark and the Creation Museum and it provides the answers people have.
Life-size Noah’s Ark
Native
Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist
I agree in this and that is why the explanation of the global Flood Myth belongs to the celestial realms and has to be interpreted as a cosmogonical and cosmological description and explanation of the creation of the ancient known part of the Universe. Read my post #31 above.
When dealing with a cosmological myth of creation, one of course have to stand with the mythical context and not mixing all kinds of historical or geological events on the Earth into the celestial Flood Myths.
shawn001
Well-Known Member
Those old sandals are from some of the first humans entering the Americas.
World's Oldest Shoes
A University of Oregon Professor, Luthor Cressman discovered the oldest known shoes in the world. The sandals were found in 1938 in a desert cave in Eastern Oregon. They were made of sagebrush bark and had been covered by volcanic ash from the eruption of Mount Mazama more than 7,500 years ago.
Again, just one example of many.
I have to ask syncretic and James Bond, do they have evidence it's rained in the Antartic "Dry Valleys" in the last million years?
You, of course, ignored this question.
"We built Noah's Ark and the Creation Museum and it provides the answers people have."
So in your own words, it's okay to lie to people, although what you said doesn't even make sense.
When you can get that "Noah's Ark at the Creation Museum" insured by Loyd's of London, as floatable let me know.
A problem is we can point out dry spots everywhere on Earth for over 10,000 years.
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shawn001
Well-Known Member
You can certainly look up their sources easily and they are using Orginal sources and they are biblical scholars. .
I guess you missed the point of the Biblical inconsistencies in the Bible.
Points of similarity between the
Babylonian and Noachian flood stories
"Noah released a raven once and a dove twice; Ut-Napishtim released three birds: a dove, swallow and raven."
COMPARISON OF BABYLONIAN AND NOAHIC FLOOD STORIES
shawn001
Well-Known Member
In one of my posts above, there is evidence of a massive "outburst flood" after the ice age from around 8200 years ago (humans would be around), so the timing would have been right and that started in North America and made England an Island and helped form the Black sea. It made it into the Middle East. I think the myth is based on some real events, local or the one I am posting about which really did effect those parts of the Earth. But again not caused by rain. Although maybe the event did make it rain more.
"This vast body of water drained and refilled, apparently, several times, but emptied finally and completely about 8,000 years ago, when the melting ice of Hudson Bay gave its waters egress. It is estimated that drainage of the lake raised world sea levels by one to three meters. Lakes Manitoba and Winnipeg, are residual catchments, which correspond to regions where the original lake was deepest. Though huge by modern standards, they retain only a small fraction Agassiz's original waters."
Lake Agassiz: Vast prehistoric lake - Online Biology Dictionary
This is pretty new information, especially with dating and a lot of new research on it going on, but so much fresh water pour into the Atlantic that it cooled the planet. " The cooling lasted for about 1,400 years..
Mega-flood triggered Europe's last big freeze... and global warming could plunge us back into the cold, warn scientists | Daily Mail Online
With all due respect, I think it's important to look for historical or geological events that contribute to the myths and separate all facts from fiction. Even though the stars played a huge role in their myths and need to be taken into account as well.
Desert Snake
Veteran Member
Meatballs.
Its called a parrallel myth if the timeline isnt clear. Verbal history until recorded on scrolls.
You basically just admitted the global flood.
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shawn001
Well-Known Member
"Meatballs."
What an intelligent comment on Paleoclimatology, worse than your understanding of plate tectonics and fossil formations.
You might learn something here.
Paleoclimatology: The Ice Core Record
"
Throughout each year, layers of snow fall over the ice sheets in Greenland and Antarctica. Each layer of snow is different in chemistry and texture, summer snow differing from winter snow. Summer brings 24 hours of sunlight to the polar regions, and the top layer of the snow changes in texture—not melting exactly, but changing enough to be different from the snow it covers. The season turns cold and dark again, and more snow falls, forming the next layers of snow. Each layer gives scientists a treasure trove of information about the climate each year. Like marine sediment cores, an ice core provides a vertical timeline of past climates stored in ice sheets and mountain glaciers.
"To pry climate clues out of the ice, scientists began to drill long cores out of the ice sheets in Greenland and Antarctica in the late 1960s. By the time Alley and the GISP2 project finished in the early 1990s, they had pulled a nearly 2-mile-long core (3,053.44 meters) from the Greenland ice sheet, providing a record of at least the past 110,000 years. Even older records going back about 750,000 years have come out of Antarctica. Scientists have also taken cores from thick mountain glaciers in places such as the Andes Mountains in Peru and Bolivia, Mount Kilimanjaro in Tanzania, and the Himalayas in Asia.
"The ice cores can provide an annual record of temperature, precipitation, atmospheric composition, volcanic activity, and wind patterns. In a general sense, the thickness of each annual layer tells how much snow accumulated at that location during the year. Differences in cores taken from the same area can reveal local wind patterns by showing where the snow drifted. More importantly, the make-up of the snow itself can tell scientists about past temperatures. As with marine fossils, the ratio of oxygen isotopes in the snow reveals temperature, though in this case, the ratio tells how cold the air was at the time the snow fell. In snow, colder temperatures result in higher concentrations of light oxygen. (See The Oxygen Balance.)
https://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Features/Paleoclimatology_IceCores/
No Global flood.
"Its called a parrallel myth if the timeline isnt clear. Verbal history until recorded on scrolls"
The timeline is pretty clear the epic of Gilgamesh was first or there was an even earlier story.
"You basically just admitted the global flood"
An Outburst flood is not the biblical flood.
Again, A problem is we can point out dry spots everywhere on Earth for over 10,000 years. Something you ignore, which is dishonest to the facts.
shawn001
Well-Known Member
Precipitation
The conventional flood story states that the flood waters came from rain that lasted 40 days and 40 nights (Genesis 7:12).[note 1] Rain appears when the atmosphere can no longer support water in the vapor phase and it becomes saturated. Normally, the atmosphere is on the brink of saturation, and the variations in temperature and pressure caused by weather fronts are capable of altering the threshold at which precipitation will form quite easily. What about the amount of water vapor suspended in air needed for the 4.5 billion cubic kilometers of water needed for the global flood? The water vapor currently in the air is only around 2-3% on average, with a maximum of 4% limited by temperature and pressure.[5] The change in atmospheric conditions required to support enough vapor for 112 million cubic kilometers of rain per day — about 120,000 times more than the current daily rainfall worldwide[6] — would have rendered the air unbreathable.
Indeed, the atmosphere really couldn't sustain that much water even under the most extreme temperature and pressure conditions the planet can produce. If the conditions were right for that much water to be in the atmosphere, humans and virtually every other animal would have drowned through the simple act of breathing, as well as turning the earth into the equivalent of a pressure cooker with atmospheric pressure at nearly a thousand psi instead of the standard 14.7 or so that we have today. Barring the goddidit escape hatch (a tried and tested fallback for creationists everywhere), this is impossible.
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Global_flood
The conventional flood story states that the flood waters came from rain that lasted 40 days and 40 nights (Genesis 7:12).[note 1] Rain appears when the atmosphere can no longer support water in the vapor phase and it becomes saturated. Normally, the atmosphere is on the brink of saturation, and the variations in temperature and pressure caused by weather fronts are capable of altering the threshold at which precipitation will form quite easily. What about the amount of water vapor suspended in air needed for the 4.5 billion cubic kilometers of water needed for the global flood? The water vapor currently in the air is only around 2-3% on average, with a maximum of 4% limited by temperature and pressure.[5] The change in atmospheric conditions required to support enough vapor for 112 million cubic kilometers of rain per day — about 120,000 times more than the current daily rainfall worldwide[6] — would have rendered the air unbreathable.
Indeed, the atmosphere really couldn't sustain that much water even under the most extreme temperature and pressure conditions the planet can produce. If the conditions were right for that much water to be in the atmosphere, humans and virtually every other animal would have drowned through the simple act of breathing, as well as turning the earth into the equivalent of a pressure cooker with atmospheric pressure at nearly a thousand psi instead of the standard 14.7 or so that we have today. Barring the goddidit escape hatch (a tried and tested fallback for creationists everywhere), this is impossible.
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Global_flood
Possibly true, but I believe that the Missoula was a little early to contribute to flood legends.
There appears to be some confusion as to the date of the Missoula flood. Some have referred to an ending date of 8200 years ago. I believe the age of the Missoula floods is 13,000 to 15,000 years ago making Missoula Flood less likely that it contributed to the flood legends.
I also question the estimates of the rise in sea level due to the Missoula floods. It is simple volume math. Look at the map of the Missoula flood and lake extent, then look at the vast overwhelming size of the oceans of the world. The simple comparison rejects any such rise in sea level.
From: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/_
"During the last deglaciation that followed the end of the Last Glacial Maximum, geologists estimate that a cycle of flooding and reformation of the lake lasted an average of 55 years and that the floods occurred several times over the 2,000-year period between 15,000 and 13,000 years ago. U.S. Geological Survey hydrologist Jim O'Connor and Spanish Center of Environmental Studies scientist Gerard Benito have found evidence of at least twenty-five massive floods, the largest discharging ≈10 cubic kilometers per hour (2.7 million m³/s, 13 times the Amazon River).[2] Alternate estimates for the peak flow rate of the largest flood include 17 cubic kilometers per hour[3] and range up to 60 cubic kilometers per hour.[4] The maximum flow speed approached 36 meters/second (130 km/h or 80 mph)."
I also question the estimates of the rise in sea level due to the Missoula floods. It is simple volume math. Look at the map of the Missoula flood and lake extent, then look at the vast overwhelming size of the oceans of the world. The simple comparison rejects any such rise in sea level.
From: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/_
"During the last deglaciation that followed the end of the Last Glacial Maximum, geologists estimate that a cycle of flooding and reformation of the lake lasted an average of 55 years and that the floods occurred several times over the 2,000-year period between 15,000 and 13,000 years ago. U.S. Geological Survey hydrologist Jim O'Connor and Spanish Center of Environmental Studies scientist Gerard Benito have found evidence of at least twenty-five massive floods, the largest discharging ≈10 cubic kilometers per hour (2.7 million m³/s, 13 times the Amazon River).[2] Alternate estimates for the peak flow rate of the largest flood include 17 cubic kilometers per hour[3] and range up to 60 cubic kilometers per hour.[4] The maximum flow speed approached 36 meters/second (130 km/h or 80 mph)."
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'Interesting local flood stories' is not very meaningful, considering the lack of evidence for anything more than local and regional catastrophic flood events with some recorded in ancient writings. There is no evidence these individual catastrophic events are connected to a larger world flood.
The purpose of this thread is to demonstrate that natural local catastrophic floods, documented natural causes by archaeological and geologic evidence were then recorded in ancient writings.
Again . . .
Likewise the Chinese stories of catastrophic floods do not represent world floods, and are not considered Divinely caused. They are stories of catastrophic river valley floods, and one ancient flood in particular which has been documented by geologic research.
Also, Japan mythology does not include a world flood myth, even though the Japanese Islands are subject frequent catastrophic tsunamis.
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gnostic
The Lost One
What in this god-forsaken heavens are you talking about????!!!!
What is a "soft fossil"?
Do you even know what a fossil is?
If you are talking about soft tissues like muscles and organs, then more often than they are usually long gone before fossilisation begins. Some do leave impressions of soft tissues in the fossils, but usually the bones, teeth and exoskeletons that get fossilise.
That's why in ancient fossils that are older than 50,000 years, K-Ar (Potassium-Argon) radiometric dating is used instead of C-14 (radiocarbon) dating, because bones, teeths, shells or exoskeletons are usually already partly mineralised because of calcium in them, so these are what could probably become fossils, not the carbon organic compounds, such as tissues or flesh.
Calcium stayed in the fossils a lot longer than carbon, so calcium are dateable even after hundreds of millions of years.
Calcium also exist in many rock minerals, such as sedimentary rocks (eg limestone, shale, etc), which (sedimentary rocks) is where geologists find most fossils, as opposed to igneous and metamorphic rocks.
This is why K-Ar dating are more often used, even dating materials as young as a few thousand years, because it doesn't have limitations of radiocarbon (C-14) dating, and it far more reliable.
And what does attitude have to with fossilisation?
It seemed that you don't understand the mechanism or science of fossilisation work.
If the circumstances are right, fossilisation will happen in attitude.
Marine fossils have been found in the Himalayas, but these fossils have been dated 30 million years or more. Humans (Homo sapiens) have only been around 200,000 years.
If the Flood did happen as it say in Genesis, then it could not happen any earlier than -
(A) less than 4400 years ago (early Bronze Age, more precisely, in 2340 BCE), according to the Masoretic Text -based bible,
(B) or if you are Orthodox followers relying on the Septuagint than no earlier than 5300 years (to be more precise, 3258 BCE).
(B) or if you are Orthodox followers relying on the Septuagint than no earlier than 5300 years (to be more precise, 3258 BCE).
The problems with either 4400 or 5300 years, is that bones would not have "fossilised" in this short amount of time.
If you ever understand geology and the process of fossilisation, you would know that fossilising occurred after 10,000 years or more, where different deposits of sedimentary rocks cover successive layers.
10,000 years is just an approximate number, fossilisation can occurred as late as 9000 or 8000 years, but that not likely, and it would look younger than the fossils than the marine fossils.
But none of the marine fossils discovered in the Himalayas ever dated young than 6000 years.
As I stated earlier the (marine) fossils found in the Himalayas are all older than 30 million years, and that mean it couldn't be Noah's Flood.
So in short, the marine fossils in the Himalayas are unrelated to the Genesis Noah's Flood.
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