Noah's Ark and Other Survivors

[IHaveTheGift]

Maybe after you've been here awhile, you'll begin to see that the world isn't divided into theists and atheists.

I am noticing that and I kind of like this board, so far. :yes:

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

I am noticing that and I kind of like this board, so far. :yes:

Some people fear it, since there's the probability that it will change their beliefs.

But isn't that the very point of God searching?

 

[JayJayDee]

Jesus believed the Flood account is literal and so do millions of true Christians. So I find it odd you are having trouble finding them. Even if some did float for a time on boats or other things, what would they have eaten for the long period the Flood waters overwhelmed the Earth? Consider too, the Deluge was not just rain. It was cataclysmic divine judgment from our Creator. No land-based living thing survived, as Genesis 7:21,22 reports.

I don't believe that the flood was local. It was, as rusra says a "cataclysmic divine judgment from our Creator". It changed earth's landscape. The mountains were probably not as high pre flood and the deluge came from waters both above and below the earth's surface. The weight of the water would most assuredly have altered the appearance of the earths crust, creating deep valleys and thrusting up mountains.

The flood subsided after about a year, so where did all the water go? I believe it was drawn up and frozen into the magnetic polar ice caps. Those who warn about global warming suggest that if the polar ice caps melt, the earth will again be flooded. The Bible says that no other living things apart from sea creatures survived.

Food was stored on the ark to ensure the survival of all the creatures that God brought to Noah as well as the humans on board. Since nothing that breathed outside the ark survived, it seems that all land dwellers descended from the flood survivors.

"After that Jehovah said to Noah: “Go into the ark, you and all your household, because you are the one I have found to be righteous before me among this generation. You must take with you every kind of clean animal by sevens, the male and its mate; and of every animal that is not clean just two, the male and its mate; also of the flying creatures of the sky by sevens, male and female, to preserve their offspring alive over all the earth. For in just seven days, I will make it rain on the earth for 40 days and 40 nights, and I will wipe from the surface of the ground every living thing that I have made.” (Gen 7:1-4)

You can see that there were 7 of the "clean" animals. These were used for sacrifice...three pairs for breeding, plus one as a gift offering of thanks to God for their salvation.

I have no reason to believe that the flood was not a real event. The Creator of the universe does not need us humans to 'believe' in his activities. He does not need our approval and he will carry out his will regardless of what we think.

Those who have faith in him believe that he can carry out any activity regardless of whether we think it is impossible or not. He has no human limitations and his power is beyond our comprehension.

 

[outhouse]

It changed earth's landscape.

.

Where ?

I don't believe that the flood was local.

There are always local floods.

I have no reason to believe that the flood was not a real event.

I have to ask is this because of wilful ignorane?


What date exactly do you place your personal flood?

 

[Parsimony]

The weight of the water would most assuredly have altered the appearance of the earths crust, creating deep valleys and thrusting up mountains.

How does the weight of water pushing down cause mountains to be thrust up?

 

[JayJayDee]

How does the weight of water pushing down cause mountains to be thrust up?

Since the water came from under the earth as well as from above it, (Gen 7:11) it stands to reason that when you extract something from under the earth, it leaves a void. When oil is extracted from under the earth, it leaves a chasm that is today pumped full of sea water. It is hardly a substitute and one has to wonder why God put oil in there in the first place...it certainly wasn't for the purpose of providing polluting fossil fuels for greedy humans. Perhaps it was for the lubrication of the earth's massive plates and may explain the frequency of today's terrible earthquakes, which were also foretold for our time. (Matt 24:7)

Water is extremely heavy. It could easily have buckled the earth's crust and changed the landscape considerably when the vast reserves of underground water came to the surface? I am speculating here as we have no details about such things in the Bible.

But, consider this info....

Today there is about 1.4 billion cu km (326 million cu miles) of water on the earth. It covers more than 70 percent of the globe’s surface. The average depth of the oceans is 4 km (2.5 miles); average elevation of the land is only 0.8 km (0.5 miles) above sea level. If the earth’s surface was smoothed out, it would all be covered with water to a depth of 2,400 m (8,000 ft)​

So, 70 percent of earth’s surface is water.....The Land is only 30 percent

The deluge of Noah's day "was no local flash flood or cloudburst. In fact, the Greek word used in the Bible to refer to the Flood, or Deluge, is ka·ta·kly·smos′, a cataclysm. (Luke 17:27) ​

Local floods come and go in a matter of days; this one lasted over a year, the greater portion of which was required for the water to subside. How unreasonable to believe that Noah spent perhaps 50 or 60 years building a huge vessel of approximately 40,000 cu m (1,400,000 cu ft) for the survival of his family and a few animals through a mere local flood! If only a comparatively small area was affected, why the need of bringing into the ark specimens of “every living creature of every sort of flesh” in order to “preserve offspring alive on the surface of the entire earth”? (Gen 6:19; 7:3) Definitely this was a global deluge, the like of which had never occurred before nor has since.​

“The waters overwhelmed the earth so greatly that all the tall mountains that were under the whole heavens came to be covered. Up to 15 cubits [c. 6.5 m; 22 ft] the waters overwhelmed them and the mountains became covered.” (Gen 7:19, 20) ​

“The end of all flesh has come before me,” Jehovah said, hence “I will wipe every existing thing that I have made off the surface of the ground.” And it was just so. “Everything in which the breath of the force of life was active in its nostrils, namely, all that were on the dry ground, died . . . only Noah and those who were with him in the ark kept on surviving.”—Gen 6:13; 7:4, 22, 23.​

The Deluge did not come suddenly without warning. Years of time were spent building the ark, time that Noah the “preacher of righteousness” also used in warning that wicked generation. (2 Pet 2:5) Finally the time limit was up “in the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month.” The “male and female of every sort of flesh” had been brought into the ark with Noah’s family, as well as a sufficient food supply for all, and “after that Jehovah shut the door.” Then “the floodgates of the heavens were opened.” (Gen 7:11, 16) There was an incessant torrential downpour for “forty days and forty nights”; “the waters continued overwhelming the earth” a hundred and fifty days. (Gen 7:4, 12, 24) ​

Five months after the downpour began, the ark “came to rest on the mountains of Ararat.” (Gen 8:4) It was nearly two and a half months later before “the tops of the mountains appeared” (Gen 8:5), another three months before Noah removed the ark’s covering to see that the earth had practically drained (Gen 8:13), and nearly two months later when the door was opened and the survivors set foot on dry ground once again.—Gen 8:14-18." (Excerpts, Insight Volumes WTBTS)​

 

[outhouse]

Since the water came

So what date was your flood?



When exactly did this happen, what year ?

 

[JayJayDee]

What date exactly do you place your personal flood?

Calculating from the Bible's genealogical records, Noah was born in 2970 B.C.E.

Noah was 500 years old when he became father to three sons, he thereafter received his commission to build the ark in 2490 B.C.E.

The flood came in 2370 B.C.E. according to the records when Noah was 600 years old.

Noah died in 2020 B.C.E. at 950 years of age. He lived for 350 years after the deluge.

 

[Looncall]

Calculating from the Bible's genealogical records, Noah was born in 2970 B.C.E.

Noah was 500 years old when he became father to three sons, he thereafter received his commission to build the ark in 2490 B.C.E.

The flood came in 2370 B.C.E. according to the records when Noah was 600 years old.

Noah died in 2020 B.C.E. at 950 years of age. He lived for 350 years after the deluge.

A flood happening as described would leave physical traces. Non such have been found. Entire societies lived through that period undisturbed.

To believe that Noah's flood happened as described is so perverse as to approach insanity. It demonstrates the negative effect of religion on the human intellect.

The Noah story may have some value as a fable that expresses cultural values, but it is not history.

 

[Parsimony]

Since the water came from under the earth as well as from above it, (Gen 7:11) it stands to reason that when you extract something from under the earth, it leaves a void. When oil is extracted from under the earth, it leaves a chasm that is today pumped full of sea water. It is hardly a substitute and one has to wonder why God put oil in there in the first place...it certainly wasn't for the purpose of providing polluting fossil fuels for greedy humans. Perhaps it was for the lubrication of the earth's massive plates and may explain the frequency of today's terrible earthquakes, which were also foretold for our time. (Matt 24:7)

Water is extremely heavy. It could easily have buckled the earth's crust and changed the landscape considerably when the vast reserves of underground water came to the surface? I am speculating here as we have no details about such things in the Bible.

That may explain how chasms and canyons could develop but what about the mountains? What is the mechanism?

 

[outhouse]

Calculating from the Bible's genealogical records, Noah was born in 2970 B.C.E.

Noah was 500 years old when he became father to three sons, he thereafter received his commission to build the ark in 2490 B.C.E.

The flood came in 2370 B.C.E. according to the records when Noah was 600 years old.

Noah died in 2020 B.C.E. at 950 years of age. He lived for 350 years after the deluge.

Why do we have other civilizations existing at that time, all over the world who report no such event?


These prior civlizations exited for a thousand years before and after showing no break due to a global deluge.

How do you explain that to yourself?

 

[rusra02]

Why do we have other civilizations existing at that time, all over the world who report no such event?


These prior civlizations exited for a thousand years before and after showing no break due to a global deluge.

How do you explain that to yourself?

The obvious answer is they did not exist before or during the time the Flood occurred. Dates proposed for when this civilization or that existed are subject to both error and subjective opinion. Professor Merrill F. Unger fittingly observes: “Scholars also must be extremely wary of attaching undue authority to archeologists’ estimates of dates and interpretation of data. That the fixing of dates and the conclusions drawn from archeological findings often depend on subjective factors is amply demonstrated by the wide divergences between competent authorities on these matters.”—Archaeology and the Old Testament
1964, p. 164.

 

[outhouse]

The obvious answer is they did not exist before or during the time the Flood occurred.

The obvious answer is it is flood mythology based on previous flood mythology from other cultures that existed prior to Israelites. That often matches word for word in many places.

Dates proposed for when this civilization or that existed are subject to both error and subjective opinion

That is not true.

Many cultures had writing and or other symbols being used during this period.

Professor Merrill F. Unger

Was a dinasaur who died 34 years ago and has no stake in modern archeology or dating methods





It is embarrassing people even argue this with all the knowledge we have. We now know the origions of the mythology, and have known this for quite some time. Refusal of this knowledge is wilful ignorance.



You cannot discount the cultures in China as only existing for the last 4000 years. With any credibility.

You cannot discount the clovis culture of the united states. With any credibility.

 

[outhouse]

Sumerians had writing before and after this time and show no break in their civilization. NONE at all.

 

[outhouse]

Ignorance is no excuse here. These are very well known time periods.

5th millennium BC - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

• 5000–4500 BC: Għar Dalam phase of Neolithic farmers on Malta, possibly immigrant farmers from the Agrigento region of Sicily
  Cucuteni-Trypillia culture
  
  
• 5000–4000 BC: Bowl, from Banpo, near Xi'an, Shaanxi, is made. Neolithic period. Yangshao culture. It is now kept at Banpo Museum.
• 5000–2000 BCE: Neolithic period in China
• 4900–4600 BC: Arrangements of circular ditches are built in Central Europe (the Goseck circle was constructed ca. 4900 BC)
• 4800 BC: Dimini culture replaces the Sesklo culture in Thessaly (4800–4000 BC)
• c. 4500 BC: Settlement of Chirokitia dates from this period
• c. 4500 BC: Ending of Neolithic IA (the Aceramic) in Cyprus
• c. 4350 BC: Kikai Caldera forms in a massive VEI7 eruption.
• c. 4300 BC: First Funnelbeaker Culture in north and east Germany
• 4300 BC: Theta Boötis became the nearest visible star to the celestial north pole. It remained the closest until 3942 BC when it was replaced by Thuban.
• c. 4250–3750 BC: Menhir alignments at Menec, Carnac, France are made
• 4200 BC: Date of Mesolithic examples of Naalebinding found in Denmark, marking spread of technology to Northern Europe (Bender 1990)
• 4100–3500 BC: New wave of immigration to Malta from Sicily leads to the Żebbuġ and Mġarr phases, and to the Ġgantija phase of temple builders

 

[Skwim]

The obvious answer is they did not exist before or during the time the Flood occurred. Dates proposed for when this civilization or that existed are subject to both error and subjective opinion.

Of course, but hardly to the degree you suggest here.

Professor Merrill F. Unger fittingly observes: “Scholars also must be extremely wary of attaching undue authority to archeologists’ estimates of dates and interpretation of data. That the fixing of dates and the conclusions drawn from archeological findings often depend on subjective factors is amply demonstrated by the wide divergences between competent authorities on these matters.”—Archaeology and the Old Testament
1964, p. 164.

So what? Although grossly exaggerated here, this well acknowledged caveat--in its less sensationalized form---is hardly news worthy. It's one of those operative admonitions that goes without saying. :cover:

 

[Looncall]

The obvious answer is they did not exist before or during the time the Flood occurred. Dates proposed for when this civilization or that existed are subject to both error and subjective opinion. Professor Merrill F. Unger fittingly observes: “Scholars also must be extremely wary of attaching undue authority to archeologists’ estimates of dates and interpretation of data. That the fixing of dates and the conclusions drawn from archeological findings often depend on subjective factors is amply demonstrated by the wide divergences between competent authorities on these matters.”—Archaeology and the Old Testament
1964, p. 164.

Bah, the usual creationist argumentum ad crackpotum. You found some obscure kook who agreed with you. So what?

 

[yoda89]

It's so hard to find any literalists anymore, but then again maybe I just been looking for steak in a garden. I hope to see people who take Noah's Ark literally, or people who don't but care to play the advocate, post in this thread.

Among other questions, this one interests me the most:

How could there have been no other survivors? There had to be a good number of people on the world at the time, enough at least to P.O the big man to the point of remaking humanity.

I just don't see how out of all of those people, nobody else found an object that will float temporarily and in time to make a more reliable surface. Smaller boats must've existed, what happened to them? Wouldn't they have given at least just one out of the other thousands of people enough time to build a much more floatable surface or perhaps hop aboard the ark?

Perhaps this is why there are so many sinful agents in the world, because some descendants of Cain survived to further the genealogy?

Many religious events are based in fact. However are almost always fluffed over years. There was most likely a large flood of some kind. However the claims in the religious texts are impossible considering the amount of food needed, the amount of room, and the distance needed for all of the animals of the earth to reach the Arc. However some people will believe pretty much anything if told by the right person at the right time.

 

[outhouse]

There was most likely a large flood of some kind. .

There was a huge regional flood.


In 2900 BC the Euphrates factually overflowed and it was a terrible devastating flood for anyone near its banks. Meters of flood silt have been found.

Soon after that we have the epic of Ziusudra who went down the river on a barge loaded with goods who landed next to a hill and made a sacrifice. Some words match the biblical text

Soon after we have the Akkadian version who mentions two by two and also has some of the biblical text.

Then after that we have the Babylonian version that also has more of the biblical version, this flood also turned into a sea deluge instead of a river flood.


Then we have the later Israelites version that was based on these previous version that was a global deluge, and guess what!!!!!!!!

It was while the Israelites were in Mesopotamia where the original legends originated!

The Israelites even states that is where their Noah and legend comes from.


There is no mystery here at all

Only the refusal of some theist to accept historical reality

 

[work in progress]

It's a shame that some worthwhile lessons that could be learned from mythology are lost when the argument becomes is it/is it not scientific fact.

To me, this is similar to Garden of Eden and similar stories of loss of innocence found in just about every agrarian culture around the world. There is growing evidence that the transition from hunter/gatherer to farmer was not an abrupt change based on discovery of superior technology, but was instead a transition that came about out of necessity - mostly population increase forced the transition to tilling the soil and harvesting from small plots of land.

A fascinating article published in the UK Daily Mail about five years ago, featured the work of German archaeologist - Klaus Shmidt, who supervised the excavation of a site in southern Turkey called Gobekli Tepe, that has baffled paleoanthropologists ever since they began excavating large stone monuments there. In brief, it appears that the building at Gobekli Tepe began more than 12,000 years ago according to Schmidt; and there were none of the typical signs of permanent settlement when the building began. There were no houses built, no signs of food stores, accumulation of wastes or other signs of permanent settlement. It appears that the builders of Gobekli were people who considered the site of great spiritual significance, and so returned succeeding summers to continue the work of building. The climate of the late-Pleistocene also has to be factored in, as to why they didn't want to stay there on a permanent basis.

Since the building began several thousand years before the beginning of the Holocene Epoch during the Pleistocene, the weather was generally much colder than today and very erratic by today's standards. This is a likely reason why some botanists studying the hybridization of grains and other plants believe there is clear evidence of plant domestication as far back as 18,000 years ago. But, during the ice age era of the Pleistocene, it was impossible to plant and farm a permanent location; so those hunter/gatherers scattered favorite seeds as they traveled...returning at later intervals to look for grains and figs to harvest.

As the weather changed to warmer, more regular weather patterns at the beginning of the Holocene, evidence shows that population levels greatly increased also. Schmidt speculates that some of the burial evidence nearby of violent conflicts arose because of the crowding and conflict over resources.

Schmidt considers the greatest mystery at Gobekli Tepe not to be its building, but instead a massive multi-year effort made to bury the monuments about 4000 years later. The massive mound that buried Gobekli Tepe for thousands of years was so huge that even geologists thought it was a natural land feature at first. And it's pure speculation of course, but Schmidt also wonders aloud if there is a connection between the massive ancient effort to bury this holy site and the myth of the Garden of Eden, and the theme of living in an idyllic state until cast out of paradise. It's unfortunate that the civil war started in Syria has interrupted the work...at least temporarily.
Do these mysterious stones mark the site of the Garden of Eden? | Mail Online

What the findings on plant domestication and the building at very ancient sites like Gobekli Tepe show us is that our time-honored treatment of ancient history as a great Agricultural Revolution beginning our civilization and development is a crock! The building and carving of stone began with Neolithic hunter/gatherers who apparently had such an idyllic life that they were able to spend thousands of man-hours building monuments...probably to their gods and goddesses. And the knowledge of how to plant and grow food was not a great eureka moment of 5 or 6000 years ago, but instead existed for at least thousands of years prior. The difference between the hunter/gatherer and the early farmer was one of necessity not a desire to settle permanently and spend long days scratching the ground to raise food.

So, The Flood and the Garden of Eden could tell us valuable lessons about our past and about human nature if we could get beyond the is it/is it not science question.