Noah's Ark

[Rakhel]

true. my apologies

 

[Autodidact]

Apparently, the sea in which the ark floated was full of red herrings.

 

[sojourner]

A problem I have with that is that God is not bound by his own laws. He is out of it.

Laws are part of the created order. How can one become bound by that over which one has power?

 

[sojourner]

but god committed genocide and killed millions of men, women, and children.. and animals. I'm 100% certain that falls under genocide.

I would have to say that the thrust of the story is a theological cause-and-effect. God made creation good. Creation, itself, went bad -- not because of something God did, but because of what we,ourselves, became, subsequent to creation. Noah and family stayed true to the created order. The rest of humanity did not. One cannot touch fire without getting burned. If you put your hand in a flame, you will get burned. One cannot turn against the universe without getting "burned."

I think we have to ask ourselves the question: "Did God commit genocide, or did humanity commit suicide?"

 

[tumbleweed41]

How can one become bound by that over which one has power?

As evidenced by many in government... (Sorry, couldn't resist)

 

[sojourner]

Well, what do you call it when you kill everyone on the planet except one family?

does one hold the poison responsible, or the person who intentionally ingested it?

 

[sojourner]

Yeah. And Hitler only killed thirteen million people on one continent. God's job was much more complete.

Cuz as long as you have a "solid theological stance," you really shouldn't mind being slaughtered.

Preservation of life is a solid theological stance. Once again, Hitler killed innocents. God doesn't kill. God preserves. Therefore, I'd have to conclude that those textual instances in which God is portrayed as killing people deserve a greater exegesis. In this case, the simple conclusion is that humanity chose to be wicked. They chose to ingest the poison. They were not innocent. It was humanity, in this case, that acted as Hitler -- not God.

One can't choose to ignore physical laws. One can only choose to abide by them or get bit.

 

[Tristesse]

I would have to say that the thrust of the story is a theological cause-and-effect. God made creation good. Creation, itself, went bad -- not because of something God did, but because of what we,ourselves, became, subsequent to creation. Noah and family stayed true to the created order. The rest of humanity did not. One cannot touch fire without getting burned. If you put your hand in a flame, you will get burned. One cannot turn against the universe without getting "burned."

I think we have to ask ourselves the question: "Did God commit genocide, or did humanity commit suicide?"

Well, according to the bible, god created both good and bad. And god most certainly committed genocide.

 

[sojourner]

And, looking around today, did he do a good job? Was it worth the countless deaths?

I don't think we can equate a theological idea encompassing the perception of all humanity with the reality of the disposition of many individuals. When I look around, I see a faithful remnant who care for the less fortunate, who strive to create little islands of decency in a sea of human chaos. Many of those folks aren't Christian. Some are Hindi, some a Muslim, some are Native, some are New Age, some are atheist.

What we're dealing with here isn't a historical account. It's a theological explanation of "why things are the way they are." Humanity as a whole is constantly drowning in a flood of its own chaos. Those who remain faithful to the created order may be spared the consequences of that chaos.

I don't think the question is: "Did God do a good job?" I think the better question is: "How are we doing as a species?"

 

[sojourner]

Can I get you some mustard with that red herring?

[Does Homer Simpson] "Mmmmm... Unexplained herring!"

:drool:

 

[sojourner]

As evidenced by many in government... (Sorry, couldn't resist)

[rimshot and cymbal]

That, sir, was good!

 

[sojourner]

Well, according to the bible, god created both good and bad. And god most certainly committed genocide.

We're not talking about "the rest of the Bible." We're talking specifically about the flood narrative. In that particular narrative, the assumption is that what God created was good. It was humanity -- not God -- who went wrong. And they suffered the consequences of their actions -- just as we do today. If we do meth, we suffer the consequences. If we destroy the environment through nuclear war or pollution caused by industry, we suffer the consequences. If the corporate dollar is more important than quality of family life, we suffer the consequences. And those consequences are systemic -- not individual.

 

[tumbleweed41]

What I see is that, as a story to warn the tribe of Israel that evil and disobedience will be severely punished, but goodness and faithfulness will save you from Gods wraith, it works. And is not that far distant from other stories of punishment and redemption by God/Gods.

But if one is to take the story as a literal historical event, then investigation reveals an omnipotent God who is so regretful at having made, not just man, but every living creature, that in His righteous regret, He destroys all but a handful of life on Earth. And, if true, does show near genocide of the human race by what seems to be a God who went to the utmost extremes to get His point across.

 

[Tristesse]

We're not talking about "the rest of the Bible." We're talking specifically about the flood narrative. In that particular narrative, the assumption is that what God created was good. It was humanity -- not God -- who went wrong. And they suffered the consequences of their actions -- just as we do today. If we do meth, we suffer the consequences. If we destroy the environment through nuclear war or pollution caused by industry, we suffer the consequences. If the corporate dollar is more important than quality of family life, we suffer the consequences. And those consequences are systemic -- not individual.

I understand what you're talking about. What I'm saying is, god created humanity, that was good, god also created evil. And from a biblical stand point, god created humanity knowing in advance that it wouldn't live up to his expectations. So, to create something knowing in advance that it wouldn't live up to your expectations, and then destroy them for doing so, is completely asinine. Especially when you take into account that he also drowned the infants. Basically, god threw everyone into the swimming pool and dangled a life preserver in front of them, and said, anyone want to not drown. This story is one of the most egregious and immoral things I've ever heard. Hitler has nothing on god, in terms of mass murder.

 

[Misty]

We're not talking about "the rest of the Bible." We're talking specifically about the flood narrative. In that particular narrative, the assumption is that what God created was good. It was humanity -- not God -- who went wrong. And they suffered the consequences of their actions -- just as we do today. If we do meth, we suffer the consequences. If we destroy the environment through nuclear war or pollution caused by industry, we suffer the consequences. If the corporate dollar is more important than quality of family life, we suffer the consequences. And those consequences are systemic -- not individual.

Of course God went wrong if it created us, a flawed design. "A bad workman blames his tools!, so the saying goes!

 

[sojourner]

I understand what you're talking about. What I'm saying is, god created humanity, that was good, god also created evil. And from a biblical stand point, god created humanity knowing in advance that it wouldn't live up to his expectations. So, to create something knowing in advance that it wouldn't live up to your expectations, and then destroy them for doing so, is completely asinine. Especially when you take into account that he also drowned the infants. Basically, god threw everyone into the swimming pool and dangled a life preserver in front of them, and said, anyone want to not drown. This story is one of the most egregious and immoral things I've ever heard. Hitler has nothing on god, in terms of mass murder.

You're mushing the story. Nowhere in the Noah narrative is it said that "God created evil." In fact, nowhere in that narrative does it say that "God created humanity, knowing in advance that it wouldn't live up to [God's] expectations." Your argument is a straw man.

You're looking at this from a standpoint of "God doing something to a bunch of individuals," rather than from the standpoint of "the collective plight of humanity."

You can't mush the message and come up with a good analysis. Rather, your analysis takes into consideration things that are beyond the narrative in question.

 

[sojourner]

Of course God went wrong if it created us, a flawed design. "A bad workman blames his tools!, so the saying goes!

Your analysis is pretty Gnostic. Not to say that that's invalid -- but it's a far cry from where I am.

The point of the narrative is purely that "humanity screws up and suffers the consequences." Then, it's pointed out that, "because God is good, God spares the righteous remnant from the resultant collective wickedness."

That's all.

 

[Zadok]

...

Just want to remind you--in the story we're talking about, the God you worship deliberately murders everyone on the planet, including the newborn babies.

You are making some very bad assumptions. There are non-biblical ancient documents that claim that prior to the flood that babies were not being born. Noah's sons (familes) an exception but that their children were not born until after the flood.

The flood was the last chance (last resort) to perserve the human race. In essence the flood was necessary for you to live. Do you think you are worth it?

Of course that is you and everybody else since the flood

Zadok

 

[tumbleweed41]

There are non-biblical ancient documents that claim that prior to the flood that babies were not being born.

Source?

 

[sojourner]

Source?

1. They hatched.
2. They were found under rocks.
3. The stork brought them.
4. You grew them in water like sea monkeys.
5. They just sort of "showed up" on your doorstep.
6. Detroit manufactured them (until Japan took over -- but the brakes don't work as well...)
7. They fell from the sky.
8. They were always manufactured from the father's rib.
9. Aliens beamed them directly into our homes.
10. Cloning was an ancient, ritual practice back then, until it was outlawed by the shamans.