Noah's Ark

[Autodidact]

You just don't have the capacity to get it do you. You cannot seem to comprehend that the free will of the individual to choose is only worth something so long as there is something to choose. God did not create evil any more than He created darkness. Evil is the absence of good and it is good that is responsible for all creation. All creation is based on the concept of growth and anything that hinders or stands in the way of it is contrary to good and is given the name if sin and evil.

Good is reality as is light; evil is contrary to reality, being the absence of good, as is darkness the absence of light - Light is real, it has energy, it can be controlled whereas darkness has none of these things, to control darkness you must be able to control the light; Good and evil are the same way; evil and darkness do not exist as anything other than the label given to that which is contrary to the establishment of physical reality. A person does not choose evil, they choose to go contrary to that which is good and that is referred to as being evil. If it were not so then all things would be a compound in one and nothing would exist, no joy, no happiness, no growth, no progression, no reward,...unorganized nothingness would be the state of reality - God would cease to be God.

You think you have it all figured out but your lack of wisdom and understanding is all too obvious. Everybody chooses their own warm fuzzy; I think yours carries no potential for real growth and understanding. Wise men understand these things, you should try.

You should try addressing the argument without resorting to cheap insults; it leads to a better discussion.

 

[Evandr]

I don't think so. When someone takes an affirmative evil action, like murdering someone else in cold blood (or deliberately killing everything on the planet) it's not the absence of anything; it's an affirmative evil action.

You could as well define good as the absence of evil. It's sophistry.

Wrong, you seem to be hung up on your own definition of reality and what is good and evil. Good is what moves all creation forward and evil is contrary to that. You speak of murder and, yes, that is evil so far as it is done as an attempt to usurp the authority of God and that is what makes it wrong. Only God knows how to keep things rolling forward and no man has the ability to deny another his or her life or the right to try, only the ability to cut temporal life short and, unless your actions are in keeping with the guidelines the Lord has set, your actions are evil and you shall be judged for it.

Let me ask you this question. "What makes God...well...God?" I believe that it is because all creation willingly bows to His will (extremely simplistic way to put it but you get the idea) Now, why do you suppose that is? I think it is because He acts with absolute equity and justice and has proven himself worthy of that level of respect. Now, what can disrupt that flow of growth - namely free thinking individuals who think they have it all figured out, as did Lucifer, and act in a manner contrary to the forward organization of all creation, so, acting in support of the forward motion of organized creation is, simply put, keeping the commandments of God, anything less is less and if you are not moving forward you are moving backward...If you are not being good you are being something else.

Mankind is hung up on the concept of reality, not having a full knowledge of what reality really is. Actions are called good or evil but the concept of good or evil is subjective to the standards that all creation has set to keep things moving forward placing God at the helm because He has proven worthy to be there. In order for God to be evil He would have to stop the forward progression of all creation and that would effectively end all creation.

When a man murders he is not changing anything other than to unjustly dispatch another into the next life and thusly subjecting himself to the demands of justice. He is choosing to attempt to interfere with the rights of others to move forward in the realms wherein God has placed them. God can and will make reservations for those who are so unjustly treated by their brethren while those wicked brethren (murderers) have simply put themselves beyond the ability to ever be at the helm of creation.

It is a perfect plan wherein all creation can move forward while perfecting those who are the children of God to one day inherit all that He has. Not all will make it because not all will prove that they can be trusted with such power.

As I said before, evil is the absence of good just as darkness is the absence of light. In fine, a person who chooses to do evil is simply attempting to prevent the forward motion of all creation which is dependent upon the principles of justice. Just as darkness is nothing, literally, and nothing is the absence of something, in this case “light”, evil is only a condition that lacks anything good.

 

[Evandr]

You should try addressing the argument without resorting to cheap insults; it leads to a better discussion.

Yes, you're right but, in my weakness I took offense at being told my thoughts were pure bovine feces and responded with a jab or two of my own, please forgive me, I am only human.

 

[sojourner]

Hard to do when you're under water.

Happily, the lesson here is allegorical and theological, not literal and historical.

Being "under water," "behind the 8 ball," "swamped" -- however you want to put it -- those in rehab talk about "hitting bottom" -- is the very best place to begin making more of yourself than you now are.

 

[sojourner]

Oh ok. Then you don't think the flood story is meant to be literal. It's an allegory. I was under the impression that you actually thought the events took place.

Oh, dear God! Of course it's allegory!!!

 

[Tristesse]

Oh, dear God! Of course it's allegory!!!

Hey man, I don't know. There are some people on this site that take the mythical stories in the bible literal.

 

[sojourner]

So far, we have heard from some christians saying that the flood was necessary in order to save ourselves from ourselves. God did us a favour, basically.
If this god is an all-loving, compassionate and just god, why choose drowning as the method of wiping life out? Why not just have a click of the celestial fingers and we're gone. Quick, painless and easy. Why put people through the terror of having to cope with rapidly rising water (knowing there is no escape) and then put them through the ordeal of drowning?

Symbolism! There's much deeper symbolism in water for that culture than there was in the snapping of fingers.

Water, first of all, represented chaos. Humanity drowned in its own chaos. Additionally, water represented life. Humanity became drowned out of the old, wicked life, and took on new, righteous life.

 

[sojourner]

Hey man, I don't know. There are some people on this site that take the mythical stories in the bible literal.

Yeah and there are also people out there who receive orders to kill from a dog...

 

[Evandr]

Not sure I understand. Are you saying there's a great big mush of stuff, and God comes along and sort of extracts all the good stuff, leaving the bad there?

It has been given to me to know it as "matter unorganized", realms of the universe wherein there is nothing but potential, if it were not so then we could not inherit all that the Father has without altering all that He has created. Please, that was very simplistic but my finite mind cannot convey it any better, there simply has to be realms wherein the family of God can expand into.

Again, it is all good stuff that can be organized into what we know as "All Creation" and the creator defines the direction of that organized forward motion. Anything that knowingly and intentionally interferes with that organized growth is taking what can be called an evil attitude. Evil comes from within the mind of the individual and the manifestation of it in the form of actions contrary to the commandments of the creator is called "sin".

In order for judgment to have claim on sin the rules must be made known and free will must be afforded so as to determine the true character of the individual and their proper place in the eternities. That place does not have to be a place of physical pain and suffering but it also does not have to be a place in the presence of God enjoying all that God has to offer. Common sense dictates that there has to be a "range" of potential.

 

[javajo]

In Revelation 13:6 it says He opened his mouth to speak evil things against God. He told lies about God's character and about the place where God lives and about those who live in heaven with him. I seem to be seeing more of this all the time as the end times draw near. We were not there when God judged various people, but if we were, perhaps we would see the great wickedness and violence and hatred that was going on and want to end it, too. It must have been pretty bad for a just, pure, holy, fair God who is light and love and judges with equity to be moved to such severe judgement. I'm sure volumes have been written about this very matter both for and against, I just think God gets a bad rap sometimes.

The wicked can look forward to the next time, but its not with water, but with fire that he judges the impenitent wicked. But he is patient with all man and is not willing that any should perish, and he provided the free gift of eternal life to all who trust Christ for forgiveness of sins. God loved us so much he died for us that we may live forever with this God of light and love.

 

[tumbleweed41]

It has been given to me to know .....

Oh...a prophet!

 

[tumbleweed41]

....The wicked can look forward to the next time, but its not with water, but with fire that he judges the impenitent wicked. .....

Oh, another prophet!!!

 

[Evandr]

Oh...a prophet!

Ok,Ok - "to understand" I have been taught and it is my understanding that....
Sheesh, some people just don't know what to do with the time they have so they pass it with nonsensical nit-picking. Did you really think my statement went that far?

 

[tumbleweed41]

Ok,Ok - "to understand" I have been taught and it is my understanding that....
Sheesh, some people just don't know what to do with the time they have so they pass it with nonsensical nit-picking. Did you really think my statement went that far?

When one claims empirical knowledge of metaphysical speculation, it tends to raise a few eyebrows.

 

[Evandr]

Oh, another prophet!!!

You obviously wouldn't know a prophet if one jumped up and shook your hand, but don't be too sad, you're not alone on that count. Try to say something of value will ya?

 

[tumbleweed41]

You obviously wouldn't know a prophet if one jumped up and shook your hand, but don't be too sad, you're not alone on that count. Try to say something of value will ya?

When one makes claims of impending doom and damnation for the "unsaved", as many have had the tendency to do for the last 2000 years, the lack of any past fulfillment invites mockery.
Besides the self fulfilled prophesies of some, I have yet to hear of a successful prophet.

 

[Evandr]

When one claims empirical knowledge of metaphysical speculation, it tends to raise a few eyebrows.

So who died and left you with the special ability to discern when someone claiming empirical knowledge of metaphysical speculation is wrong? Just because nobody has plugged you into the reality of certain things does not mean you have the right to go about trying to debunk everything you hear that goes against your grain. Maybe if you would get on board and start becoming a real part of these conversations you might learn a thing of two.

 

[Evandr]

When one makes claims of impending doom and damnation for the "unsaved", as many have had the tendency to do for the last 2000 years, the lack of any past fulfillment invites mockery.
Besides the self fulfilled prophesies of some, I have yet to hear of a successful prophet.

I'm truly sorry for everything I have said to you thus far, I assumed that you had a sufficient knowledge base to which I could appeal in hopes of a good conversation but I seem to have been mistaken - You will have to look to someone else for such elementary conversation.

 

[tumbleweed41]

So who died and left you with the special ability to discern when someone claiming empirical knowledge of metaphysical speculation is wrong?

Really?

Maybe if you would get on board and start becoming a real part of these conversations you might learn a thing of two.

My appologies. I will try to get more involved in the conversation at hand......oh...wait...I did...

But society, according to the story, did not destroy itself, with God intervening to salvage what was left.
God himself destroyed all of society. Sparing the one family on earth that he found 'worthy'.
Did not God sacrifice peace by destroying all but a few lives on the planet? If man regrets having sired his wicked children, is he justified to destroy them?

According to the story, God regretted having made man, and so, decided to "wipe man from the face of the earth, man, my own creation and also the animals of the field, and the creatures that crawl on the ground, and the birds of the air; for I regret having made them."
Is this immense loss of life the best an omnipotent God can do?

Would you deal with your children in the same way?
If their sins were so great that you regretted fathering them, would you kill them?

So you can justify Gods actions, yet waffle on following Gods example.
Do you not strive to follow Christs example? Is not Christ=God?
In the beginning was the Word...
Christ, as God, destroyed all but a handful of his children.
WWJD?

No, I am saying that the taking of life, all life, other than the handful on the Ark, by a being who expressed regret at ever creating them, in no way supports your theology of man destroying itself, and God stepping in to "salvage" what was left.


What I find interesting is your apparent lack of respect for life.



Are you say the omnipotent God had no choice. It was either destroy most and save a few, or destroy all? According to the story, God made a conscious decision to do this. There is no mention of being forced into an either/or and making the most economical and intelligent decision.


Now you sound like a naturalist. The events you speak of are the result of natural laws and events. Not a Being making a conscious effort to murder.



Indeed, however, if the differences cannot be ironed out, is the obvious choice near genocide (or would it be xenocide, since God is not of this Earth) on the entire human race?
You speak of the near worthlessness of the lives of those killed in one breath, then promote the need of perpetuating life in the next.

What I see is that, as a story to warn the tribe of Israel that evil and disobedience will be severely punished, but goodness and faithfulness will save you from Gods wraith, it works. And is not that far distant from other stories of punishment and redemption by God/Gods.

But if one is to take the story as a literal historical event, then investigation reveals an omnipotent God who is so regretful at having made, not just man, but every living creature, that in His righteous regret, He destroys all but a handful of life on Earth. And, if true, does show near genocide of the human race by what seems to be a God who went to the utmost extremes to get His point across.

I'm truly sorry for everything I have said to you thus far, I assumed that you had a sufficient knowledge base to which I could appeal in hopes of a good conversation but I seem to have been mistaken - You will have to look to someone else for such elementary conversation.

Ah, the ad hominem attack on my intelligence.
Pathetic.

 

[Evandr]

Ah, the ad hominem attack on my intelligence.
Pathetic.

Don't be so defensive. Not every disparaging remark is an attack. I meant what I said. I have been reading a few of your posts trying to get a sense of your debating decorum and the depth of you intelligence. If you truly have either then respond in a point counter-point fashion; say something worth hearing to in a manner that does not illicit vinegar. Just about every thing you say has its roots in the tired old "prove it" challenge. The hardest thing to bear in these forums is those whose comments amount to little more then heckling so stop heckling and start saying something useful - please.