Noahs Ark

[tumbleweed41]

You show an ignorance of what Biblical faith is.

Sandy, why do you fear the truth? Isn't your faith strong enough to face reality?

 

[Evandr]

OK, there are a lot of questions about how God achieved some of the things that the Bible tells us and they are reasonable question because an inquiring mind wants to know

Here's my take: The flood did happen, unless I am mistaken there is enough ice on the surface of this planet to cover it if melted and who knows, maybe we don't really know how deep the ice caps are- fact is - maybe there is a lot that we just do not have the need and/or mental capacity to understand and perhaps it is not important enough for us to understand when it comes to the goals that we were given when we were sent to this earth in the first place.

Now, looking at it from that stand point it is not a far stretch to view the whole Noah's Ark story as an encapsulated explanation for a much greater event, the gory details being withheld. In short, I perceive the story as an explanation meant to indicate what happened, given the limited capacity of the mortal mind to comprehend such mind boggling events (also known as events of Biblical proportions), without cumbering our thought processes with the details of what happened and how it was accomplished, we have more important things to think about.

In short the story was not meant to be an exercise in confusion but maybe it was simply the easiest explanation that our mental capacity could grasp. There are emerging many deep thinkers that will ask questions that seem to contradict the whole story but such have always existed and always will (that is not necessarily a bad thing) so it really does not make much difference. Truth is and always will be.

Remember, we are talking about God here, the person who created the whole earth, the life thereon, and so on and so forth so why should the whole Noah’s ark thing be so incomprehensible simply because we do not have all the facts at our fingertips?

 

[Nepenthe]

Here's my take: The flood did happen, unless I am mistaken there is enough ice on the surface of this planet to cover it if melted and who knows, maybe we don't really know how deep the ice caps are...

You are mistaken; there is not enough water in all the oceans, ice caps, underground lakes and aquifers to cover every square inch of the planet.

Remember, we are talking about God here, the person who created the whole earth, the life thereon, and so on and so forth so why should the whole Noah’s ark thing be so incomprehensible simply because we do not have all the facts at our fingertips?

It's incomprehensible if a literal interpretation is applied.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

You are mistaken; there is not enough water in all the oceans, ice caps, underground lakes and aquifers to cover every square inch of the planet.

Ahem...you seem to have conveniently forgotten about the floodgates of heaven. I think they're located in Jersey.

 

[Evandr]

Here's another point, According to the Bible God made covenants with certain people that He promised would bless their seed forever and then there was the whole story about what we inherited from Adam and Eve. If all amnkind were destroyed in the flood then the whole show would have had to start again right from a new Adam and Eve. In such a case the promises would have had an end.

I suspect the whole show was meant to proliferate the human blood line and the animal twist is another matter. Noah gathers two of every creature, I defy anybody to come up with a number indicating how many animals were actually on the ark, perhaps far less than the romantic story would have us believe but, then again, maybe there were enough to propagate the blood lines of species and god simply went about repopulating the world after the flood insuring that, for whatever reason, a sufficient remnant of past generations was protected from the flood.

Here’s another point. The human population was not anywhere near what it is today. How far and wide would Noah’s preaching have gotten if he was simply a prophet standing on a log? Not very far I suspect, but Noah was not merely a prophet on a log, He was a prophet building and ark on a mountain. Now that is a story that would have carried his message to the whole known world as his story was told and retold.

 

[Evandr]

It's incomprehensible if a literal interpretation is applied.

My point exactly :yes:

 

[tumbleweed41]

Or....
perhaps it is just a fable, told by priests to convey both a fear of God, and Gods mercy on those he considers righteous.

Hmmmm.....

 

[Evandr]

Or....
perhaps it is just a fable, told by priests to convey both a fear of God, and Gods mercy on those he considers righteous.

Hmmmm.....

There are many things a person can believe, your view being one of them and I will certainly not decry you of the right and privilege, but the earth has a history, a present, and a future and understanding how things of a spiritual and temporal nature fit together to promote the strength and proliferation of our societies is important because, like it or not, the two are inseparately intertwined.

It is better to grow by trying to learn, consider, and understand, even though a person may get it wrong, than it is to replace seeking for wisdom with easy and convenient platforms of belief wherein there can be little, if any, progress. Cynicism has no place in an intellectual forum.

 

[freethinker44]

OK, there are a lot of questions about how God achieved some of the things that the Bible tells us and they are reasonable question because an inquiring mind wants to know

Here's my take: The flood did happen, unless I am mistaken there is enough ice on the surface of this planet to cover it if melted and who knows, maybe we don't really know how deep the ice caps are- fact is - maybe there is a lot that we just do not have the need and/or mental capacity to understand and perhaps it is not important enough for us to understand when it comes to the goals that we were given when we were sent to this earth in the first place.

Now, looking at it from that stand point it is not a far stretch to view the whole Noah's Ark story as an encapsulated explanation for a much greater event, the gory details being withheld. In short, I perceive the story as an explanation meant to indicate what happened, given the limited capacity of the mortal mind to comprehend such mind boggling events (also known as events of Biblical proportions), without cumbering our thought processes with the details of what happened and how it was accomplished, we have more important things to think about.

In short the story was not meant to be an exercise in confusion but maybe it was simply the easiest explanation that our mental capacity could grasp. There are emerging many deep thinkers that will ask questions that seem to contradict the whole story but such have always existed and always will (that is not necessarily a bad thing) so it really does not make much difference. Truth is and always will be.

Remember, we are talking about God here, the person who created the whole earth, the life thereon, and so on and so forth so why should the whole Noah’s ark thing be so incomprehensible simply because we do not have all the facts at our fingertips?

All of the "confusing" parts of the bible and really the entire bible in general makes more sense if you take god out of the equation and attribute the whole thing to the imagination of men.

 

[Autodidact]

OK, there are a lot of questions about how God achieved some of the things that the Bible tells us and they are reasonable question because an inquiring mind wants to know

Here's my take: The flood did happen, unless I am mistaken there is enough ice on the surface of this planet to cover it if melted

Yes, you are mistaken

and who knows, maybe we don't really know how deep the ice caps are

Actually, we do.

- fact is - maybe there is a lot that we just do not have the need and/or mental capacity to understand and perhaps it is not important enough for us to understand when it comes to the goals that we were given when we were sent to this earth in the first place.

I guess that depends on whether your goal is to understand what's going on or not.

Now, looking at it from that stand point it is not a far stretch to view the whole Noah's Ark story as an encapsulated explanation for a much greater event, the gory details being withheld. In short, I perceive the story as an explanation meant to indicate what happened, given the limited capacity of the mortal mind to comprehend such mind boggling events (also known as events of Biblical proportions), without cumbering our thought processes with the details of what happened and how it was accomplished, we have more important things to think about.

In short the story was not meant to be an exercise in confusion but maybe it was simply the easiest explanation that our mental capacity could grasp. There are emerging many deep thinkers that will ask questions that seem to contradict the whole story but such have always existed and always will (that is not necessarily a bad thing) so it really does not make much difference. Truth is and always will be.

Remember, we are talking about God here, the person who created the whole earth, the life thereon, and so on and so forth so why should the whole Noah’s ark thing be so incomprehensible simply because we do not have all the facts at our fingertips?

Your problem is that we do in fact have the facts at our fingertips. We know, for example, that there is not enough water on earth to cover it, that civilizations have endured throughout the flood period, etc.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I love these debates. Especially because creationsist will Always beat around the bush in relation to the exact date of the flood so that geotechs and geologists cannot smash their silly little theories. Then they will always change the magnitude of the flood from worldwide to local depending on the debate at hand, rather amusing.
Also, i've never met a flood suppoter that can adequately explain how the earth survived about 60 mega tonnes (minimum) of force without showing it.

Pivotal dates.

Bible chronology can be based on certain pivotal dates.
Counting back from that of Cyrus overthrow of the Babylonian dynasty in
539 BC(BCE).

Through the years this counting back puts Abraham as being 75 years old when he entered Canaan at the year 1943 BC(BCE). From the reckoning of Genesis 11:10 to 12:4 gives us a total of 427 years. Beginning of the Flood
to Arpachshad's birth is two years. Then to birth of Shelah 35 years, to Eber, 30 years, to Peleg 34 years, to Reu 30 years, to serug 32 years, to Nahor 30 years, to Terah 29 years, to death of Terah is when Abraham was age 75.
This comes to a total of 427 years; so adding 427 years to 1943 BC(BCE) brings the flood date to 2370 BC(BCE)

Noah divided the year by lunar calender of 30 days each. In ancient calenders the first month was September. In Genesis the floodwaters began to fall in the 2nd month on the 17th day and continued for 40 days during the months of November and December of 2370 BC(BCE). The ark after 150 days came to rest on Ararat in April of 2369 BC(BCE).

So the exact date of the Flood would have been November 17, 2370 BC(BCE)

The Bible does Not change as to the extent of the Deluge. The Greek word to refer to the Flood at Luke 17:27 is kataklysmos, a cataclysm. Local floods come and go in a matter of days. Why would Noah spend decades building a 1,400,000 cubic foot vessel for a local flood? If oceans were smaller and continents larger as they are now as evidenced by river channels extending out under the oceans then mountains could have been pushed up higher than what they are now.

 

[Evandr]

All of the "confusing" parts of the bible and really the entire bible in general makes more sense if you take god out of the equation and attribute the whole thing to the imagination of men.

A person deeply rooted in keeping even the most obvious and standard commandments of God coupled with frequent prayer and contemplation will disagree with you out of their own experience, however, at the risk of being accused of proselytizing (which I am not) allow me to quote the first half of the LDS 8th article of faith to which I adhere:

8) We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly;

Your view of the Bible is, oddly enough, justified for the Bible has certainly not escaped the centuries of interpretations and translations unscathed and altered to the point wherein your comment has some degree of logic and merit.

 

[Autodidact]

So the exact date of the Flood would have been November 17, 2370 BC(BCE)

Except that there could not have possibly been a worldwide flood on that date for several reasons, not the least of which is that several civilizations lived right through it.

Ignoring this fact will not make it go away.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Uh huh, myths. Most (but not all cultures) have flood myths, because at some time they have had a flood. Not all at once, but at different times. Now, again, how is it that Egypt kept operating right through this flood? Also Sumeria, China, etc? How is it that they failed to notice they were underwater?

Egypt has records, written records of their dynasties. These records continue smoothly right through this "flood," during which they were completing work on their great pyramids. They were doing major construction in the middle of a flood that's supposed to have been so powerful that it created mountains and canyons. Why do you think they didn't notice that they were underwater the whole time?

See post of Sept. 15, 9:16 p.m.

Since Egyptian history began after the Flood there would be no record.

The works of Manetho are only preserved in the writings of later historians such as Josephus, Sextus Julius Africanus, Eusebius and Syncellus so it is extrermely difficult to know for certain which is authentic Manetho or what is not.

Even ancient inscriptions by the scribes are by no means above suspicion.
Scribes could have used chronology to add praise to their particular ruler in power.

Doesn't China have flood legends?

 

[Evandr]

Yes, you are mistaken[/font][/color]

So I have been given to understand, I never really investigated it before but apparently there is not enough water, but, that does not preclude the idea that a person with omnipotent power did not tidy things up so life could go on and we all could debate the issue[/quote]

Actually, we do. I guess that depends on whether your goal is to understand what's going on or not.

That is extreamly presumptious.

Your problem is that we do in fact have the facts at our fingertips. We know, for example, that there is not enough water on earth to cover it, that civilizations have endured throughout the flood period, etc.

Did you know that there was a time in our recent history that we were considering closing all the patent offices because it was believed that there was nothing left to learn?

HMMMMM...sounds oddly familiar to what I am hearing in this thread

 

[darkendless]

Pivotal dates.

Bible chronology can be based on certain pivotal dates.
Counting back from that of Cyrus overthrow of the Babylonian dynasty in
539 BC(BCE).

Through the years this counting back puts Abraham as being 75 years old when he entered Canaan at the year 1943 BC(BCE). From the reckoning of Genesis 11:10 to 12:4 gives us a total of 427 years. Beginning of the Flood
to Arpachshad's birth is two years. Then to birth of Shelah 35 years, to Eber, 30 years, to Peleg 34 years, to Reu 30 years, to serug 32 years, to Nahor 30 years, to Terah 29 years, to death of Terah is when Abraham was age 75.
This comes to a total of 427 years; so adding 427 years to 1943 BC(BCE) brings the flood date to 2370 BC(BCE)

Noah divided the year by lunar calender of 30 days each. In ancient calenders the first month was September. In Genesis the floodwaters began to fall in the 2nd month on the 17th day and continued for 40 days during the months of November and December of 2370 BC(BCE). The ark after 150 days came to rest on Ararat in April of 2369 BC(BCE).

So the exact date of the Flood would have been November 17, 2370 BC(BCE)

The Bible does Not change as to the extent of the Deluge. The Greek word to refer to the Flood at Luke 17:27 is kataklysmos, a cataclysm. Local floods come and go in a matter of days. Why would Noah spend decades building a 1,400,000 cubic foot vessel for a local flood? If oceans were smaller and continents larger as they are now as evidenced by river channels extending out under the oceans then mountains could have been pushed up higher than what they are now.

If you believe this, then do something very simple for me. Go into your garden and dig a hole about 20 cm deep. If you are right, instead of the soil getting progressively lighter, there should be one inconsistent dark patch where the flood water was so weighed that it caused the organic soil into a suspension which would eventually evaporate away. Just saying this because when my father poured concrete the other day the soil got lighter down to rock, so theres no evidence of flooding here.

Look, heres an example for you from south of me in Sydney Australia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soil_horizon
Please inform me why this soil does not have a distinctive dark layer in between two very light layers i'm very curious because what you suggest goes against everything i have learnt and practised in the last 2 years.

In regards to the vessel. Do you understand weight forces.

Weight = mass x gravity

and;

for every downward weight force in water there is a reacting bouyancy which places an equal force back upon the vessel itself. So when you think about it, a weight force on wood (elastic modulus of about 14 MPa (which is very weak, mild cast steel is 200MPa)) your theory is in a bit of trouble sir.

Very simple mechanics and earth science does not agree with your theories i'm afraid.

 

[Autodidact]

See post of Sept. 15, 9:16 p.m.

Since Egyptian history began after the Flood there would be no record.

The works of Manetho are only preserved in the writings of later historians such as Josephus, Sextus Julius Africanus, Eusebius and Syncellus so it is extrermely difficult to know for certain which is authentic Manetho or what is not.

Even ancient inscriptions by the scribes are by no means above suspicion.
Scribes could have used chronology to add praise to their particular ruler in power.

Doesn't China have flood legends?

Of course, almsot every country has flood legends, because almost every country has floods.

So what you're saying is that all of the world's archeologists, as well as the geologists, anthropologists, paleontologists, ship-builders, hydrologists, meteorologists and biologists are all wrong, and you're right? That all those archeologists are just so stupid and gullible that they base their entire history on a single writing, without even trying to corroborate it with other sources?

The earliest written Egyptian records date from 3000 BCE. We have 18 pieces of papyrus with Egyptian writing from 2500 BCE. Between the Palermo Stone, the Karnak King Lists, the Table of Abydos and the Table of Saqqara, we have a complete, contemporary list of all the Egyptian Pharoahs. Oh, and they're consistent with Manetho. During the period you're discussing, the Pharoahs built most of they pyramids--while underwater! Makes that construction all the more challenging.

 

[Autodidact]

So I have been given to understand, I never really investigated it before but apparently there is not enough water, but, that does not preclude the idea that a person with omnipotent power did not tidy things up so life could go on and we all could debate the issue

sure, you're absolutely right. A magic God could have caused the flood, magically increased the water, magically made the water go away, and magically changed all of the evidence, and made it impossible for us to do any science whatsoever, because God goes around making everything look completely different than it is. If you believe this, then you have to reject all empirical science as completely impossible, and admit that your view is fundamentally anti-scientific. That's certainly your prerogative. Just don't call it "creation science."

Did you know that there was a time in our recent history that we were considering closing all the patent offices because it was believed that there was nothing left to learn?

So what you're saying is that we should not bother doing science, then, because it's not possible to learn anything about the natural world? Otherwise what is your point?

HMMMMM...sounds oddly familiar to what I am hearing in this thread

In what way? I don't see the similarity.

Are you familiar with the concept of science at all? It's this new thing, really useful.

 

[Arlanbb]

Pivotal dates.
Hi URAVIP2ME ~ Hope you don't mind me butting in but being and old archaeologist for the past 30 or so years your mathamatics is strange to me.
Bible chronology can be based on certain pivotal dates.
Counting back from that of Cyrus overthrow of the Babylonian dynasty in
539 BC(BCE). You say we have a starting date of 539 BC and the next date you give going back is 1943 BC for when Abraham intered Canaan. Where did this 1404 years come from??? In your mathamatics you add all of them together and you get to the date of 2370 BC for Noah's deluge. You tell us that Egypt started right after Noah's flood in 2370 BC. We have writings in Egyptian that start 700 years before Noah's deluge. We know with positive proof that the Egyptions built the Great Giza Pyramids from 2614-2502 BC. Dr. Randall Price who is a creationist gives us that number in his book printed 12 years ago, "The Stones Cry Out". Archaeologist have uncovered evidence that the first people lived in Egypt 7,000 years ago. The first people to live in Old Jericho was over 11,000 years ago. When they dug up Old Jericho over 50 years ago they did not find any flood mud on the site at all. How do you explaine all these contradiction that the Genesis deluge happened in 2370 BC???? I will be looking for your answer.
Through the years this counting back puts Abraham as being 75 years old when he entered Canaan at the year 1943 BC(BCE). From the reckoning of Genesis 11:10 to 12:4 gives us a total of 427 years. Beginning of the Flood
to Arpachshad's birth is two years. Then to birth of Shelah 35 years, to Eber, 30 years, to Peleg 34 years, to Reu 30 years, to serug 32 years, to Nahor 30 years, to Terah 29 years, to death of Terah is when Abraham was age 75.
This comes to a total of 427 years; so adding 427 years to 1943 BC(BCE) brings the flood date to 2370 BC(BCE)

Noah divided the year by lunar calender of 30 days each. In ancient calenders the first month was September. In Genesis the floodwaters began to fall in the 2nd month on the 17th day and continued for 40 days during the months of November and December of 2370 BC(BCE). The ark after 150 days came to rest on Ararat in April of 2369 BC(BCE).

So the exact date of the Flood would have been November 17, 2370 BC(BCE)

The Bible does Not change as to the extent of the Deluge. The Greek word to refer to the Flood at Luke 17:27 is kataklysmos, a cataclysm. Local floods come and go in a matter of days. Why would Noah spend decades building a 1,400,000 cubic foot vessel for a local flood? If oceans were smaller and continents larger as they are now as evidenced by river channels extending out under the oceans then mountains could have been pushed up higher than what they are now.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Arlanbb Please see post on page 60 of Sept 14th 6:36 p.m.

There are also archaeologists that do not agree with biblical chronology pointing to 1473 BC (BCE) as the date for Jericho's destruction either.

What I am posting is what is recorded in Scripture. How did Dr. Price arrive at his numbers?