Noahs Ark

[URAVIP2ME]

Yup. so if scripture differs from archeology (biology, cosmology, geology, paleontology, anthropology, physics, ancient history, ship-building, hydrology and so forth), which one do you pick?

Surprised evolution was not on the ^above^ list.

Can you contradict the ancient history of what the Bible says about:

The fall of Babylon to the Medes and Persians
(Jeremiah 51:11,12,28; Daniel 5:28) ?

What about what it says about Babylon's Nebuchadnezzar
(Jer. 27:30; Dan 1:1)?

What it says at Karnak's inscription about King Shishak (Sheshonk I) in Palestine
(1Kings 14:25; 2 Chron 12:2)?

What about Assyrians Tiglath-pileser III and Sennacherib (2Kings 15:29; 16:7; 18:13)?

What about emperors Augustus, Tiberius, and Claudius (Luke 2:1;3:1; Acts 18:2) or Pilate, Felix and Festus (Acts 4:27;23:26; 24:27)?

What about the temple of Artemis at Ephesus and the Areopagus at Athens (Acts 19:35; 17:19-34)?

 

[Tristesse]

Surprised evolution was not on the ^above^ list.

Can you contradict the ancient history of what the Bible says about:

The fall of Babylon to the Medes and Persians
(Jeremiah 51:11,12,28; Daniel 5:28) ?

What about what it says about Babylon's Nebuchadnezzar
(Jer. 27:30; Dan 1:1)?

What it says at Karnak's inscription about King Shishak (Sheshonk I) in Palestine
(1Kings 14:25; 2 Chron 12:2)?

What about Assyrians Tiglath-pileser III and Sennacherib (2Kings 15:29; 16:7; 18:13)?

What about emperors Augustus, Tiberius, and Claudius (Luke 2:1;3:1; Acts 18:2) or Pilate, Felix and Festus (Acts 4:27;23:26; 24:27)?

What about the temple of Artemis at Ephesus and the Areopagus at Athens (Acts 19:35; 17:19-34)?

Actually evolution falls under the biology category, seeing as how evolution deals with biology.
Oh and the fact that the bible has some historical validity to it. Doesn't mean that everything in it is accurate. Particularly, matters of non-natural intervention. Because I bet you could find historical accuracies in any ancient book of mythology. I'm including the christian myth in that too.

 

[Autodidact]

Surprised evolution was not on the ^above^ list.

Biology is. Modern Biology is based on evolution.

Can you contradict the ancient history of what the Bible says about:

The fall of Babylon to the Medes and Persians
(Jeremiah 51:11,12,28; Daniel 5:28) ?

What about what it says about Babylon's Nebuchadnezzar
(Jer. 27:30; Dan 1:1)?

What it says at Karnak's inscription about King Shishak (Sheshonk I) in Palestine
(1Kings 14:25; 2 Chron 12:2)?

What about Assyrians Tiglath-pileser III and Sennacherib (2Kings 15:29; 16:7; 18:13)?

What about emperors Augustus, Tiberius, and Claudius (Luke 2:1;3:1; Acts 18:2) or Pilate, Felix and Festus (Acts 4:27;23:26; 24:27)?

What about the temple of Artemis at Ephesus and the Areopagus at Athens (Acts 19:35; 17:19-34)?

Start a thread. This one is about the mythical global flood.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Start a thread. This one is about the mythical global flood.

My questions were a reply on the mention of history.

 

[fantome profane]

Yup. so if scripture differs from archeology (biology, cosmology, geology, paleontology, anthropology, physics, ancient history, ship-building, hydrology and so forth), which one do you pick?

Surprised evolution was not on the ^above^ list.

Can you contradict the ancient history of what the Bible says about:

The fall of Babylon to the Medes and Persians
(Jeremiah 51:11,12,28; Daniel 5:28) ?

What about what it says about Babylon's Nebuchadnezzar
(Jer. 27:30; Dan 1:1)?

What it says at Karnak's inscription about King Shishak (Sheshonk I) in Palestine
(1Kings 14:25; 2 Chron 12:2)?

What about Assyrians Tiglath-pileser III and Sennacherib (2Kings 15:29; 16:7; 18:13)?

What about emperors Augustus, Tiberius, and Claudius (Luke 2:1;3:1; Acts 18:2) or Pilate, Felix and Festus (Acts 4:27;23:26; 24:27)?

What about the temple of Artemis at Ephesus and the Areopagus at Athens (Acts 19:35; 17:19-34)?

You avoided answering Autodidact's question.

 

[Autodidact]

My questions were a reply on the mention of history.

History and the flood. Ancient history tells us there was never any such flood, as it has not left the historical evidence you would expect. This thread is about the flood that didn't happen.

 

[OmarKhayyam]

Actually it is about the irrational and erroneous belief that it DID.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Genesis 1 defines the firmament as where the sun moon and stars are.

So basically you can't define it and your whole understanding comes from the bible which in itself does not define it. I've given you the definition accurately. Not only were they accurate but they were taken from a bible dictionary.

The people and most likely the writers equated the firmament as a solid layer supporting/containing water. As I said earlier they most likely looked to the sky and beyond (above) the clouds they saw a blue layer equating it to water. That's not how it works.

Any other definition is not Biblically accurate.

Then you know very little of the bible. When I or If I give a definition of the bible word or even the quran I won't simply turn to Websters. I will quote a bible dictionary or even a lexicon. The definitions are biblically accurate.

Since you claim to be able to read, you can read that in the first chapter of the KJV. How people "saw" it is irrelevant to what the Bible actually says.

They didn't know. That's my point. Neither do you...it seems. If all you can do is regurgitate scripture without giving a meaning then what's the point of any dialogue with you? Firmament means "heaven" and is defined as (raqiya -, an extended solid surface or flat expanse). Heaven, for the most part is the same as firmament....According to your bible Gen. 1:8. All it means is (Sky). So when your god caused the windows of heaven (The Sky) to open....All it meant was .......IT RAINED........No big mystery to us but to them, those who thought the world was flat, had no understanding as to where water from the sky came from...that's what they believed.

As to what heaven is, I say it is what God created on the first day and is outside the universe as we know it.

And you're wrong. Your bible says no such thing....if you simply want to use your bible for your understanding of heaven. According to YOUR bible heaven is INSIDE the universe. According to Gen 1:14 your god created a light in heaven to divide the day and night and to define the seasons. At this point we should know that it simply means (sky). And at this point we should know by simply reading the text that it was not referring to a place "outside the universe"...

As to what the windows of heaven are, I'd say it is a way of saying that the extra water came from heaven and not the earth or the 'open firmament of heaven" which is the sky as described in Genesis 1 KJV.

This is exactly what I said. It RAINED.....but the Firmament (Heaven/Sky) does not hold enough water to cover the entire earth.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Of course, almsot every country has flood legends, because almost every country has floods.

So what you're saying is that all of the world's archeologists, as well as the geologists, anthropologists, paleontologists, ship-builders, hydrologists, meteorologists and biologists are all wrong, and you're right? That all those archeologists are just so stupid and gullible that they base their entire history on a single writing, without even trying to corroborate it with other sources?

The earliest written Egyptian records date from 3000 BCE. We have 18 pieces of papyrus with Egyptian writing from 2500 BCE. Between the Palermo Stone, the Karnak King Lists, the Table of Abydos and the Table of Saqqara, we have a complete, contemporary list of all the Egyptian Pharoahs. Oh, and they're consistent with Manetho. During the period you're discussing, the Pharoahs built most of they pyramids--while underwater! Makes that construction all the more challenging.

Thank you.........:yes:


Why does he KEEEEEPPPPPP continuing to IGNORE this.....?.....

 

[OmarKhayyam]

Thank you.........:yes:


Why does he KEEEEEPPPPPP continuing to IGNORE this.....?.....

Psalm 11:3

Not to speak for our devout poster but this is the reason I have seen given most often. IF the flood didn't happen then the authority of the bible as the inerrant WoG is weaken. The foundation of the faith. Enough weakening, no 6 days, no parted red sea with thousands of chariots on the bottom, no sun standing still, etc. and the whole foundation is destroyed.

If those things didn't happen then maybe the resurrection didn't happen either.

Can't allow that possibility.:no:

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Surprised evolution was not on the ^above^ list.

Can you contradict the ancient history of what the Bible says about:

The fall of Babylon to the Medes and Persians
(Jeremiah 51:11,12,28; Daniel 5:28) ?

What about what it says about Babylon's Nebuchadnezzar
(Jer. 27:30; Dan 1:1)?

What it says at Karnak's inscription about King Shishak (Sheshonk I) in Palestine
(1Kings 14:25; 2 Chron 12:2)?

What about Assyrians Tiglath-pileser III and Sennacherib (2Kings 15:29; 16:7; 18:13)?

What about emperors Augustus, Tiberius, and Claudius (Luke 2:1;3:1; Acts 18:2) or Pilate, Felix and Festus (Acts 4:27;23:26; 24:27)?

What about the temple of Artemis at Ephesus and the Areopagus at Athens (Acts 19:35; 17:19-34)?

Considering this thread is about NONE of that..who, but you, cares?

Arlanbb asked
"You have not answered my questions about the writing of the Egyptions that date back 700 hundred years before your date of the deluge 2370BC and the Pyramids of Giza that were built by the Egyptions 300 years before your deluge dating? And the archaeologial evidence of people living in Egypt over 7000 years ago and 11,000 years ago on people living in Old Jericho? Please answer these question which you avoided the first time you answered me."

You haven't really given a sufficient answer. I did one better by showing that not only did the Egyptians live before the flood but they appear to live through it and beyond. As well as the Sumerians and the people of India.

 

[averageJOE]

As I looked back at some of the posts I noticed that some very good points against the flood got completly ignored or were given answers like "God did it!" So I want to post them again in hopes that some Flood believers can possibly provide us with some educated answers.

Varves?

Let's approach this story from a different angle and talk about how Noah and his family populated the entire earth. The whole silly Flood story - SkepticReport





If we create a simple formula using today’s population of ~6 billion, and figure in the starting population (8 individuals), and the starting time (4360 YBP), we get an annual growth rate of about 0.0047. Since that IS what happened, according to creationists, and it IS the only possible explanation for today’s human population then…

1. At Christ’s death there were only about half a million people in the whole world!
2. At the time the Israelites entered Canaan, (about 1180 BCE) we get a world population of 2024! By the time you divide that up between Egypt, Canaan, the rest of the world, and Israel, that leaves maybe 6 or 7 people for the Israelite army!
3. If we go back to the time that the Jews were expelled from Egypt, in 1560 BCE, we get a world population of only 340 people!
4. In 2300 BCE there were only about 10 people on Earth! How did fewer than a dozen people build the pyramids?

We are talking about rapid human reproduction here! And this is all assuming not a single baby had a birth defect that prevented it from reproducing. Also, families would not have been able to stay together very long. From one generation to the next they would have to constantly pick up and leave.

If you believe this, then do something very simple for me. Go into your garden and dig a hole about 20 cm deep. If you are right, instead of the soil getting progressively lighter, there should be one inconsistent dark patch where the flood water was so weighed that it caused the organic soil into a suspension which would eventually evaporate away. Just saying this because when my father poured concrete the other day the soil got lighter down to rock, so theres no evidence of flooding here.

Look, heres an example for you from south of me in Sydney Australia: Soil horizon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Please inform me why this soil does not have a distinctive dark layer in between two very light layers i'm very curious because what you suggest goes against everything i have learnt and practised in the last 2 years.

In regards to the vessel. Do you understand weight forces.

Weight = mass x gravity

and;

for every downward weight force in water there is a reacting bouyancy which places an equal force back upon the vessel itself. So when you think about it, a weight force on wood (elastic modulus of about 14 MPa (which is very weak, mild cast steel is 200MPa)) your theory is in a bit of trouble sir.

Very simple mechanics and earth science does not agree with your theories i'm afraid.

Considering this thread is about NONE of that..who, but you, cares?

Arlanbb asked
"You have not answered my questions about the writing of the Egyptions that date back 700 hundred years before your date of the deluge 2370BC and the Pyramids of Giza that were built by the Egyptions 300 years before your deluge dating? And the archaeologial evidence of people living in Egypt over 7000 years ago and 11,000 years ago on people living in Old Jericho? Please answer these question which you avoided the first time you answered me."

You haven't really given a sufficient answer. I did one better by showing that not only did the Egyptians live before the flood but they appear to live through it and beyond. As well as the Sumerians and the people of India.

 

[shortfade2]

hmmm....The points about the population are very interesting and insightful. I just want to ask average Joe a few questions.
Would it be reasonable if it only flooded the area where Noah lived?
Or would the numbers still not at up?
What about the amount of children that those people were having? Is that based off of the classic 2.2 children, because in the Bible Jacob had 12 sons....isnt it reasonable to think that those 12 sons probably had a lot of kids, too? So what would the population rates be if the average number of children was....hmmmm....lets go with 6?
Other than these questions, VERY insightful post.

 

[averageJOE]

hmmm....The points about the population are very interesting and insightful. I just want to ask average Joe a few questions.
Would it be reasonable if it only flooded the area where Noah lived?
Or would the numbers still not at up?
What about the amount of children that those people were having? Is that based off of the classic 2.2 children, because in the Bible Jacob had 12 sons....isnt it reasonable to think that those 12 sons probably had a lot of kids, too? So what would the population rates be if the average number of children was....hmmmm....lets go with 6?
Other than these questions, VERY insightful post.

If the Genesis flood was only a local or regional flood story then none of the points brought up in post #692 apply. They are more aimed at believers of a world wide flood.

However, you might find this site interesting: Noah's Ark and the Ziusudra Epic - home page noahs-ark-flood.com
Here they describe a more believable flood story involving Noah and his ark. They talk about the flooding of the Euphrates River in 2900 BC, and that the ark was a commercial barge that was used to transport food and cattle betwween cities on the river and never built to be a "lifeboat". This version tells how Noah saw that there was a larger than normal rain storm falling and that he loaded up his barge with only his cattle and livestock knowing that the river was about to flood. It also talks about how people didn't live to be 600+ years old and how that was just a mistranslation of numbers.

Like I said, it's interesting and more believable than the Genesis version. However, I believe that if the flood was local than, to me, that just proves that the bible isn't the word of God or God inspired. Just a book written by people who were just trying to understand the world around them.

 

[shortfade2]

How would you come to that conclusion? I do believe that the Bible was God Inspired, because I do not believe that jesus was a loon. He really knew that he was the son of God, and the things that he taught were not words of an idiot. he would not have lied himself to the cross, and suffered a terrible death knowing that he was doing it for fun. Metaphors are used in the bible constantly and I think that it is true. But some things are lost in translation, or taken literally, etc.

 

[Autodidact]

How would you come to that conclusion? I do believe that the Bible was God Inspired, because I do not believe that jesus was a loon. He really knew that he was the son of God, and the things that he taught were not words of an idiot. he would not have lied himself to the cross, and suffered a terrible death knowing that he was doing it for fun. Metaphors are used in the bible constantly and I think that it is true. But some things are lost in translation, or taken literally, etc.

Or, consider this possibility. Like most religious texts, none of it ever happened.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Or, consider this possibility. Like most religious texts, none of it ever happened.

Exactly......:run:

 

[freethinker44]

Metaphors are used in the bible constantly and I think that it is true. But some things are lost in translation, or taken literally, etc.

They weren't metaphors when they were written down. They are only considered metaphors now because some parts are too ridiculous and obviously wrong if they are taken literally.

But let's assume you are right, how do you distinguish metaphors from the parts to be taken literally. If god can do anything then there is no reason why anything in the bible should be a metaphor, god would be able to perform those tasks easily no matter how far out they seem to us.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

hmmm....The points about the population are very interesting and insightful. I just want to ask average Joe a few questions.
Would it be reasonable if it only flooded the area where Noah lived?
Or would the numbers still not at up?
What about the amount of children that those people were having? Is that based off of the classic 2.2 children, because in the Bible Jacob had 12 sons....isnt it reasonable to think that those 12 sons probably had a lot of kids, too? So what would the population rates be if the average number of children was....hmmmm....lets go with 6?
Other than these questions, VERY insightful post.

From Noah's three sons we have Hamitic, Shemitic and Japhetic peoples.

Mankind in general can trace its religious family tree back to ancient Babylon's tower of Babel. What was the world's population at that time?

An approximate time for the tower is connected to Peleg (Genesis 10:25;11:9) because in Peleg's time (2269-2030 BC(BCE) the earth was divided.

Nimrod (son of Noah's son Cush) lived in the latter part of the 3rd millennium BC(BCE) so it is likely the building of the tower of Babel began under his direction.

After the breakup at the tower of Babel the main body of Cush's descendants migrated southwards toward Africa and the Arabian Peninsula. The name of Cush's son Seba is associated with E. Africa.

Japheth produced seven sons (Genesis 10:3-5; 1 Chron 1:6,7) and considered the progenitor of the Aryan or Indo-European branch of the human family.

Noah's son Shem was the progenitor of the Semitic peoples which would include the Hebrews. Shem fathered Arpachshad (Genesis 11:10,11). Shem's death occurred some 13 years after the death of Abraham's wife Sarah in 1881 BC(BCE), and ten years after the marriage of Isaac and Rebekah. Jacob was the son of Isaac and Rebekah. Jacob's parents were married 20 years before Jacob was born in 1858 BC(BCE) with Isaac being 60 years old at that time.

So besides other Hebrews, Jacob's 12 Shemitic sons, there were other populations spreading or migrating from Noah's other two sons in different parts of the earth.

It would seem then that there was a 400 year time frame from the time of the tower of Babel's population to the lifetime of Jacob. With the Hebrew population at that time already consisting of more people than Jacob and his sons.

 

[Autodidact]

URA: It's like you're having a conversation with yourself. Yeah, the Bible says all that stuff. It's wrong. Now can we get back to discussing reality?

Here are a few of the problems you have not adequately dealt with:

There's not enough water in the the world to cover it with water.
It's not possible to build a seaworthy vessel out of wood the size of the ark. Your attempts to modify it make the problem worse, not better.
There is no worldwide sedimentary layer just under the earth.
Varves make it clear that there are places on earth that have not been flooded for tens of thousands of years.
Ice core samples corroborate this.
Several of the world's civilizations lived right through the flood.
Either there was a small number of "kinds" on the ark, which should then be evolving into new species rapidly, so rapidly we would observe it happening in real time, OR
there was an unimaginably large number of "kinds" on the ark, necessitating a ginormous ark, many football fields long.

This is not a list of the actual problems, too numerous to name here, just those raised in this thread that you have not dealt with.