Noah's flood story, did it happen?

[firedragon]

No, Carbon 14 dates only the age when living things died.
Cant date rocks, and it can not extend further thn 54000 years.
And then science is not sure on the amount of C14 during that time.
If, say we use the Biblical version, there was no C14 in the atmosphere 4500 years ago, any organic matter tested will show a false date of 10th of thousands of years.
Science does not know when the atmosphere reached equilibreum.

Sooo, who said that C14 dating is the only dating mechanism in history? Brother, how about K–Ar, Rb–Sr and U–Pb systems? Who in the modern world speaks of C14 for dating earth and refute that in order to prove that Noah and his boat was in an era where there were no humans? Lol. Maybe Noah was an amiba?

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Come on dude - it is microevolution all the way down! Even when it requires macroevolution (of which speciation is a part)!

Have you heard the good news? Sin is "100% genetically transmitted so there is no way to dodge it".

This is incredible. I don't know how I missed all the papers on this.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

What does that even mean?

The earth is delicious with extra cheese and pepperoni?

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Yip!
Then the Atheist tries to use science to prove the Bible wrong.
Thats where the Christian Bible believer goes out and check for themself, find that what science says, was written in the Bible long before they discovered their facts.
I love the Bible for just that.

There are many things in the Bible that are unsupported by science. Some of these were discovered by Christians that set out to support the claims of the Bible.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

I dont quite get your question.
Noah was 600 years old with the flood, and lived another 350 years.
He was born 2948 BC and died 1998 BC.
The Flood happened in about 1650 after Adam and Eve were created.
In a world where there was little cosmic radiation, and no Ultra violet rays damaging life, as well as a total abscense of C14 radiation, the Earth was a tropical rainforrest from one end to the other.Plantlife would have been immencely thick and lush, and man would have lived for hundreds of years.

lets look at it this way.
Bevcause the Earth had no C14, People did not age as we do today.
After the flood, as the atmosphere cleared up, and light was seen to refract, a rainbow appeared.
Now, with such descriptions, one can understand that :

• because the atmosphere cleared up, C14 production increased, which resulted in people ageing quicker.
• Taking the description of the ages of the Biblical ancients, one will see that human ages deteriorated after the flood, and on a graph, one can easily notice how human ages went down on a curve to about 70 Years of age.
• Due to the change of the atmosphere, any plantlife that fossilised, and animal life feeding on plants and other sources living from such food, will have a very low count of C14.
• This will render an animal, or plant fossil, with organic material tested for c14, as very old.

Why, because when they lived around 4500 years ago, there was no c14, and testing these residues will give you dates in excess of 35 000 years.

Therefore, there is no way to tell what age a bone, wood, or rock is, if we try to use c14 on any carbon sources.

Actually, scientists are growing C14 free plants as a foodsource knowing it will increase our lifespan.
Chris williams wrote a document where he showed that C14 poses huge health risks.
Then Plicht and J. P. M. Beijers came up with a strawman telling us that to get this much C14 in your body, will be as eating 400 Kg of soyabeans for a year.
Nice to read here.
Carbon 14 in Food
what licht and J. P. M. Beijers neglected to say, is that
1. we dont want to die in a year, but divide that C14 up in 70 years, and add cosmic radiation and ultra violet, and we have real evidence that it all contributes to bad health.
Furthermore, No One said that they wanted to prove that the danger limit of C14 must be reached, to die!
Nope, what Williams said was, C14 reduces your lifespan.
Therefore, it is clear.
Noah and the people living after him were for the first time exposed to C14, and other radiation.

Therefore, C14 is in itself evidence that the Biblical description of history, is scientifically correct,

Wow!

 

[ecco]

My first statement was, the earth cracked open, releasing billions of qubic miles of water.

And yes, nothing survived, save Noah and the ark.

Have you ever seen videos of glacial ice calving and causing big waves?
Have you ever heard of the word "tsunami"?
Do you know what causes a tsunami?

If "the earth cracked open" and released "billions of cubic miles of water" the waves would have been hundreds, perhaps thousands, of feet high. Yet, somehow, you believe the tiny ark with pairs of juvenile bovine could have survived. If you ever really thought about what you write you would see how ridiculous your notions are.

 

[Jose Fly]

This thread is a very good illustration of how creationists have zero new talking points or arguments, and how creationism itself is effectively dead.

Everything that's being debated here is decades old and has been done to death.

 

[McBell]

This thread is a very good illustration of how creationists have zero new talking points or arguments, and how creationism itself is effectively dead.

Everything that's being debated here is decades old and has been done to death.

Seems to me they are much better off sticking with "GodDidIt"...
The more they try to explain how it happened, the more ridiculous they sound.

 

[Jose Fly]

Seems to me they are much better off sticking with "GodDidIt"...
The more they try to explain how it happened, the more ridiculous they sound.

The funniest are the ones who try and argue that it's scientifically valid, but when cornered on details immediately fall back on "God did that part".

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Well, you tell me how they got the dates of say, the Himalyas.
Lets see!

Determining the age of a mountain range, can be done in a multitude of ways.
There's a myriad of things that give you clues on how long it's been building up.

I'm sorry, I'm not going to bother writing out a lesson in geology.
First, because I'm not a geologist
Second, because my efforts would be in vain anyway and all that I will accomplish is wasting my time.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Why millions of years.

Because that's what the evidence supports.

I might remind you all how all the Geologists laughed at J Harlan Bretz when he proposed this huge flood, only to be proven correct and to receive the Penrose Medal, the Geological Society of America's highest award, in 1979, at the age of 96. After this award, he told his son: "All my enemies are dead, so I have no one to gloat over."

So what's your point?

Bretz was scolded by the greatest of snobbery by the scientists of his day for an attempt to give evidence against the prevailing view of uniformitarianism. They hated the fact that there might be any evidence of a catastrophic event that changed the Geology.
Well, it took the scientific world from 1923 to 1979 to realise that Bretz was correct.
56 years!

And after 3500 years of biblica-style miracle flood claims, there's still no shred of evidence for that flood.

Yes, the Earth was wet when it was created, science agrees.
It was wet 4500 years ago, science agrees.

No.

This scientific myth that humans are responsible for global warming is incorrect.

The Earth has been heating up over the last 4500 years.

Veeeeeryyy slooooowwwwlly.
And then exponentially since the 1900s, curiously around the same time we started pumping massive amounts of a green house gas in the atmosphere. Maybe, just maybe, there is a connection.

 

[Fallen Prophet]

This is great sutff.

When the Israelites emerged they began writing their own myths. Every culture does this, it's religious syncretism. They took the flood myths they had heard and wrote their own setting it centuries in the past. They couldn't write it as a recent event because there obviously wasn't a recent flood. Noah is a fictional character. He lived to be over 500 years old, this is mythology. The first Israelites were even using Ashera who was a Goddess from the culture they came out of. Ashera was the consort of Yahweh. Archeologists have found Ashera figurines and writings that say "Yahweh and his Ashera".
They did not commit to monotheism until the 2nd temple period 6BC when scripture says they decided they were being punished for worshipping false Gods. This was the high priests response to being invaded again, this time by the Persians.

The ancient Mesopotamians were not writing the same story. Gilamesh and Enkidu and numerous Gods and monsters are part of an epic story found on many clay tablets. The idea that this was actually Yahweh, the names are wrong, its 5 months instead of 6 days and endless other changes is not likely. The Israelites just took the basic concepts of a flood from a God, landing on a mountain and so on and made a new story.
Just read the Mesopotamian myths:
Epic of Gilgamesh - Wikipedia

It is not possible to confirm or deny any of these things you mentioned - which isn't to say that they are not possible explanations - we just can't confirm them.

Now - before I begin - note that I am going to argue from the position from the Biblical narrative.

I believe that it is important to try and view these things from that perspective - because many explanations are possible.

As far as we know - the Israelites did not have a written language until after the time of Moses - so that may explain why they did not write their stories until that time.

So - of course - if there had been a global event in the distance past - cultures that had a written language before the Israelites would have recorded it before they had a chance to.

That does not mean that the story was "stolen" - many and all cultures may have had a version of that story. It would have been passed down orally.

And there is no reason to assume that their oral tradition would sync up with the story of Gilgamesh.

I just don't see how the ancient Mesopotamians recording a story about a Flood event long before the Israelites did is evidence that the Israelite version of the story is fiction or mythology.

The Genesis account claiming that Noah lived to be 950 is - in and of itself - not evidence for him being fictional - in my opinion.

And the Israelites recognizing or even worshipping multiple gods anciently is no shock - the Biblical account claims that they did and that God did not like it.

Of all flood narratives (hundreds) in almost 1/2 they are not created by divine origin, no God. You think they would forget that? So they are not all the same myth being copied by other cultures.

No - I don't believe that every Flood event narrative needs to mention God at all.

We are talking about thousands of years and so many languages and cultures.

Not everyone is going to want to attribute a divine source to this old story.

Almost all flood myths come from societies that live near the sea or a major river.

Don't most societies live near the sea or major rivers?

Noah and his wife were 500 years old and only then did they have 3 children?

The Genesis account does not claim that Noah had only the three sons just that he "begat" those three. It never says "only".

It is likely that Noah had more children both before and after the Flood event.

People like to assume that if the Bible does explicitly state something - then it didn't happen.

If that were the case then how did Adam, Eve, Cain, and Seth - populate the entire planet? Where did Cain's wife come from?

A count of all animals and insects of the time is about 2, 065, 000

How was this count tabulated?

Also - I do not believe that Noah took samples of "all" animals. I believe that the meaning of the word "all" changes depending on the context.

For example - Genesis 6:13 records God saying to Noah, "The end of all flesh is come before me"

Obviously - if God had intended to save Noah's family and these animals - this "all" should not be taken literally.

Genesis 6:21 again records God saying to Noah, "And take thou unto thee of all food that is eaten"

Obviously Noah did not pack up "all" the food in the world.

So - I believe the word "all" - within the context of animals and food - was referring to specific things that God and Noah had discussed previously.

As Noah prepared for the eventual Deluge - God gave him instruction - and therefore the use of the word "all" would be in reference to those preparations and instructions.

Basically - "all" the food and animals that God commanded him to include.

Yahweh instructed to take animals by "sevens" rather than 2.

Only the certain animals. The one designated as "clean" I believe.

Noah also needed food for all animals for 1 year. 370 bales of hay would be needed for just the elephants.

If he was the one that preserved the elephants on the Ark - then yes.

When I consider that Flood event stories are had among many peoples around the world - I believe that is supporting evidence that there were other survivors - which were either lucky or they also had been given instruction by God - and that the Genesis account records just one of many.

A JW pamphlet points out every "kind" of animal would be put on the ark rather than every species. This makes for less animals. But now you have to believe that in 4000 years 1 kind of monkey got off the ark and now we have 330 species? Same for every other "kind" of animal.
This would require the most rapid evolution ever. Which fundamentalists don't even believe in.

Yeah - it's weird. Unless - of course - God were somehow involved.

Most animals could not survive without special equipment, lighting and such.

True - unless God were somehow involved.

The Ark floated for 5 months and ended up close by on Mt Ararat, 450 miles?

There is no way to determine where Noah built the Ark and if the mountains of Ararat we know today were the same mentioned in the Genesis account.

All mammals since this time came from Mt Ararat but the distribution of mammals shows this is impossible. The further away from Mt Ararat would show fewer mammals. The distribution of mammals show far more mammals in places far away from the Middle East.

If Noah had the Only Ark - or other method of preserving life - and he indeed landed in the Middle East - then this would be a good argument against the idea.

Why a God wouldn't just use magic to change humans in some way rather than kill billions of animals?

Change humans in what way?

I mean - since He is the one with all the "magic" - why couldn't he chose the Ark option - then "magically" shrink all the animals in the Ark or put them all into stasis or any other number of things to make the story work?

All of the flood myths the versions near Mesopotamia are the most similar. Likely from an actual flood of the Tigris river.

It is most likely that the "cradle of civilization" was near where Noah landed - which would account for why their versions of the same story are so similar.

The Flood could have been a localized event. There's no way to rule that out.

The myth is about re-birth and taking it literal to mean a sky-god reigns destruction when people mis-behave means you miss the actual point of the story.

The story could have layers of meaning - including actual events.

Luke claims the flood was an actual event.
John claims Jesus watched the building of the Ark and the flood from heaven.
Showing the NT is likely also a made up story rather than divinely inspired.

Would you mind sharing these New Testament references?

From what you have shared - I still see no reason to disbelieve these sources.

 

[Subduction Zone]

This is great sutff.
It is not possible to confirm or deny any of these things you mentioned - which isn't to say that they are not possible explanations - we just can't confirm them.

Now - before I begin - note that I am going to argue from the position from the Biblical narrative.

I believe that it is important to try and view these things from that perspective - because many explanations are possible.

As far as we know - the Israelites did not have a written language until after the time of Moses - so that may explain why they did not write their stories until that time.

So - of course - if there had been a global event in the distance past - cultures that had a written language before the Israelites would have recorded it before they had a chance to.

That does not mean that the story was "stolen" - many and all cultures may have had a version of that story. It would have been passed down orally.

And there is no reason to assume that their oral tradition would sync up with the story of Gilgamesh.

I just don't see how the ancient Mesopotamians recording a story about a Flood event long before the Israelites did is evidence that the Israelite version of the story is fiction or mythology.

I don't think that you properly understand the concept of evidence.

The Genesis account claiming that Noah lived to be 950 is - in and of itself - not evidence for him being fictional - in my opinion.

And this confirms it. All animals, people included, do not tend to live that long. In fact during our 200,000 plus years on Earth as Homo sapiens the lifespan is the longest now that it has ever been. Perhaps some biology classes would help. Artificially high ages are a sign of myth across all human kind. We respect age. It is why the ages of people in various mythical histories was almost always greater than it is today.

And the Israelites recognizing or even worshipping multiple gods anciently is no shock - the Biblical account claims that they did and that God did not like it.

No - I don't believe that every Flood event narrative needs to mention God at all.

We are talking about thousands of years and literally every language and culture.

Not everyone is going to want to attribute a divine source to this old story.

Don't most societies live near the sea or major rivers?

Yes, most societies live along navigable waterways. And they tend to flood now and then. That is why flood myths are almost universal. Not quite. There are some areas where floods are so rare that it has not entered into their mythology. Japan for example. The terrain there is rather steep and water drains off too quickly to flood. They do not have the vast flood plains that other countries have.

The Genesis account does not claim that Noah had only the three sons just that he "begat" those three. It never says "only".

It is likely that Noah had more children both before and after the Flood event.

People like to assume that if the Bible does explicitly state something - then it didn't happen.

If that were the case then how did Adam, Eve, Cain, and Seth - populate the entire planet? Where did Cain's wife come from?

How was this count tabulated?

You cannot use one myth to defend another myth. There was no "Adam and Eve:.

Also - I do not believe that Noah took samples of "all" animals. I believe that the meaning of the word "all" changes due to context.

For example - Genesis 6:13 records God saying to Noah, "The end of all flesh is come before me"

Obviously - if God had intended to save Noah's family and these animals - this "all" should not be taken literally.

Genesis 6:21 again records God saying to Noah, "And take thou unto thee of all food that is eaten"

Obviously Noah did not pack up "all" the food in the world.

So - I believe the word "all" - within the context of animals and food - was referring to specific things that God and Noah had discussed previously.

As Noah prepared for the eventual Deluge - God gave him instruction - and therefore the use of the word "all" would be in reference to those preparations and instructions.

Basically - "all" the food and animals that God commanded him to include.

Even if he only took up the animals in existence today he faced several insurmountable problems. One of them was literally fart poisoning. The ark would have filled with deadly amounts of methane if the myth were true.

Only the certain animals. The one designated as "clean" I believe.

If he was the one that preserved the elephants on the Ark - then yes.

When I consider that Flood event stories are had among many peoples around the world - I'm inclined to believe that there is supporting evidence that there were other survivors - which also would have been given instruction by God - and that the Genesis account records just one of many.

Yeah - it's weird. Unless - of course - God were somehow involved.

True - unless God were somehow involved.

There is no way to determine where Noah built the Ark and if the mountains of Ararat we know today were the same mentioned in the Genesis account.

If Noah had the Only Ark - or other method of preserving life - and he indeed landed in the Middle East - then this would be a good argument against the idea.

Change humans in what way?

I mean - since He is the one with all the "magic" - why couldn't he chose the Ark option - then "magically" shrink all the animals in the Ark or put them all into stasis or any other number of things to make the story work?

It is most likely that the "cradle of civilization" was near where Noah landed - which would account for why their versions of the same story are so similar.

It could most definitely been a localized event. There's no way to rule that out.

The story could have layers of meaning - including actual events.

Would you mind sharing these New Testament references?

From what you have shared - I still see no reason to disbelieve these sources.

Okay, it is clear that you do believe in a mythical version of the flood. Two simple facts that flood believers cannot deal with:

Ice floats.

And speaking of ice, waking up in a cheap hotel room in an bathtub filled with ice is an urban myth.

Both facts refute the flood.

Oh, and claiming that you understand it from "a biblical narrative" is simply not a valid excuse. You may believe that but it does not mean that science cannot refute that belief.

 

[gnostic]

That does not mean that the story was "stolen" - many and all cultures may have had a version of that story. It would have been passed down orally.

And there is no reason to assume that their oral tradition would sync up with the story of Gilgamesh.

The Epic of Gilgamesh was internationally popular throughout the Bronze Age Middle East: to be more precise, during the 2nd dynasty of Babylon.

The Kassites who invaded Babylonia, and overthrew the Amorite dynasty (1st dynasty of Babylon), and like Amorites before them, they adopted Akkadian form of government, adopted Akkadian culture and language and Akkadian religion.

The Epic (along with other tablets with Babylonian origin) was found in Canaanite Megiddo, fragments dated to 14th century BCE, just like those found in Ugarit and in Amarna, Egypt. Such was the popularity of Gilgamesh story, that it spread beyond Mesopotamia.

And it continued to be popular in the next millennium (1st millennium BCE). The kingdoms of Israel and Judah weren’t living in isolation bubbles, Fallen Prophet. Wars and invasions weren’t the only avenues for foreign cultures to spread, they were also spread through diplomatic relations and through trades.

Creation stories and Flood stories from Assyria and Babylonia were known to Israel and Judah. It is not surprising at all, for Hebrews trying to develop their national stories, by adapting foreign stories, modifying for their own people.

The problem with oral traditions, is that the Iron Age kingdoms of Israel and Judah weren’t living in complete illiteracy.

The Gezer Calendar is evidence that Hebrew alphabet existed as early as the 10th century BCE, but no biblical texts were ever found in either kingdoms until possibly Josiah’s reign (eg the silver scrolls from Ketef Hinnom), but definitely during the 6th century Babylonian Exile, and the Second Temple period.

I don’t think you know enough about history in Bronze Age Canaan and Iron Age Israel-Judah to make comments about oral traditions, unless you have bother to do the research on these matters.

All you are doing is making excuses without examining the evidence that are there’d those that don’t exist.

 

[gnostic]

It is most likely that the "cradle of civilization" was near where Noah landed - which would account for why their versions of the same story are so similar.

The Flood could have been a localized event. There's no way to rule that out.

Cradle of civilization existing only after the Flood of Noah, which supposedly took place around 24th century BCE???

Are you kidding me?

Archaeology of Sumerian civilization definitely predated this Noah’s myth, with Sumerian proper starting the Jemdet Nasr, from 3100 to 2900 BCE. But cities like Eridu, Uruk (called Erech in some translations of Genesis 10), Ur, etc and Nineveh and Ashur in Assyria, all predated the Jemdet Nasr period.

Uruk itself have been a very prosper Chalcolithic 4th millennium BCE, that archaeologists named much of the 4th millennium as the Uruk Period (c 4000 - c 3100 BCE).

If you don’t know what Chalcolithic means, it is a transitional period in the Middle East (including Egypt and Mesopotamia) that sit between the earlier Neolithic period and the later Bronze Age. People were not only still making stone tools, but have also learned to make copper tools, hence Chalcolithic period is informally known the Copper Age. It was a period before they learned to make tools using bronze metallurgy.

Anyway, both Uruk and Nineveh are older than the the 4th millennium Uruk Period. The oldest settlement at Uruk have been dated to as early as 5000 BCE, while the oldest at Nineveh was around 6000 BCE.

So the Genesis 10’s claim that Nimrod built Uruk (Erech) and Nineveh is a totally Iron Age fiction. And how does Genesis 10 accounted for Calch (Kalhu in Assyrian), which was only built during 13th century BCE?

Now unless Nimrod have lived over 4200 years, Nimrod couldn’t have built both Nineveh and Calch in Assyria. And we do know that Kalhu was built during the reign of Shalmanesser I.

Cities in the ancient Middle East are often built on top of each other, so the older settlements are found deeper down than newer settlement, this can be seen in places like Uruk, Damascus and Jericho. And each settlement can be dated to specific period of times, and archaeology can tell when the settlement were prosperous or poor, technological advanced or backward.

Uruk and Nineveh are much older than Noah’s imaginary and bogus Table of Nations (Genesis 10).

 

[rational experiences]

Humans said I was witness to the flood.

God advised.

God O earth planet.
Gods O gases heavens.

A human scientist telling themes about reactions.

Data history written advice or verbal taught passed stories. Great destruction removed status civilization once used. To keep data records. Verbal took over instead .

God said how to build an ark from stone. For the human in science.

In human ideals I studied earth forms in stone nuclear power. I wanted the reactions says human in science.

Built it machine reactive.

O earth not reactive stable.

Carbon mass owned by wood nature not same mass as bio cell in life. Commonsense. Nature pre exists as form in science thesis. Human non comparable to garden body.

Mountains above our heads
Clouds and rain above our heads.

Temples part of science machine built on mountains to ground above our heads

UFO radiation mass hits mountain. Scorched blasts converts melts mass blackens mt Sinai face.

Science.

Suddenly ground water X mass changes lifts off earth face. To contradict radiation blasting.

Image of humans animals phenomena seen emerging in clouds boarding sun mass level UFO ark nuclear orbital signal seen...... thought are boarding leaving as ground life begins to die.... today we say abducted.

Same witness modern times.

Gases burn by mass in heavens. Human mutate start dying by millions in radiation rain fallout. Over our heads we are beneath radiation rain. Then flood water by a human count forty days cools earth. Humans survived.

Real story. How it was interpreted wrong.

Moses statement said it created new human form from genesis losses.

 

[Fallen Prophet]

Have you ever thought that God spoke to people before?

Of course. That's always an option.

 

[Fallen Prophet]

What does that even mean?

You know - a disc with a large blob in the center. You know.

 

[Fallen Prophet]

Please, you are projecting. You were sloppy and lazy in your questions so I asked for clearer ones. That is all. No need for the excessive and distorted play by play.

C'mon - why are you being so flaccid with your claims?

You made claims about Noah - then claimed that "much" of what you said could be confirmed - so that's why I asked how you confirmed them.

I can't be direct with my questions since your claim was so vague.

My attempt to refresh your memory was neither excessive or distorted.

Are you coming up with more abstract reasons to not back up what you claim? Again?

No, even though the Hebrews did not originate the idea it did become part of their mythology and since they put their own twist on the story it is now "Hebrew mythology".

Of course the Flood story did not "originate" with the Hebrews. Noah was not a Hebrew. He lived long before the Hebrews.

I understand how it could be considered "Hebrew mythology" - but that terminology can cause people to make all kinds of snap judgments - like you do.

Except history shows that was not the case. They did not pick up the story until contact, some of it forced, with the Babylonians.

That date isn't agreed upon by the "experts" though - so don't jump the gun.

Much older versions of it can be found in Babylonian sources than in Hebrew sources.

Older versions of the the story of Noah or the Flood event?

Considering that the ancient Babylonians had developed a written language long before the ancient Hebrews did - it's not a surprise that we would find older written records of the Flood event from Babylonian sources.

I mean - this is kinda common sense.

That des not mean that ancient Hebrews were not passing on the story of Noah and the Flood around the same time the Babylonians were writing their version.

And as you know it is a myth. It is an event that never happened.

I cannot confirm or deny this. No one can. No one knows this.

The entire Earth was never flooded while man lived on it. Man himself was never threatened by a massive flood.

I've never claimed to subscribe to a global Flood event.

And since you cannot even be specific in your claims all that is needed are general arguments to refute you.

What claims would those be?

Could you quote me making them?

As other have pointed out, and I so often like to point out to, the myth would have left a universal population bottleneck. One is not to be seen. The lack of evidence of an event can refute the event.

I don't believe lack of evidence proves anything - other than there is lack of evidence.

 

[Fallen Prophet]

The Epic of Gilgamesh was internationally popular throughout the Bronze Age Middle East: to be more precise, during the 2nd dynasty of Babylon.

The Kassites who invaded Babylonia, and overthrew the Amorite dynasty (1st dynasty of Babylon), and like Amorites before them, they adopted Akkadian form of government, adopted Akkadian culture and language and Akkadian religion.

The Epic (along with other tablets with Babylonian origin) was found in Canaanite Megiddo, fragments dated to 14th century BCE, just like those found in Ugarit and in Amarna, Egypt. Such was the popularity of Gilgamesh story, that it spread beyond Mesopotamia.

And it continued to be popular in the next millennium (1st millennium BCE). The kingdoms of Israel and Judah weren’t living in isolation bubbles, Fallen Prophet. Wars and invasions weren’t the only avenues for foreign cultures to spread, they were also spread through diplomatic relations and through trades.

Creation stories and Flood stories from Assyria and Babylonia were known to Israel and Judah. It is not surprising at all, for Hebrews trying to develop their national stories, by adapting foreign stories, modifying for their own people.

The problem with oral traditions, is that the Iron Age kingdoms of Israel and Judah weren’t living in complete illiteracy.

The Gezer Calendar is evidence that Hebrew alphabet existed as early as the 10th century BCE, but no biblical texts were ever found in either kingdoms until possibly Josiah’s reign (eg the silver scrolls from Ketef Hinnom), but definitely during the 6th century Babylonian Exile, and the Second Temple period.

I don’t think you know enough about history in Bronze Age Canaan and Iron Age Israel-Judah to make comments about oral traditions, unless you have bother to do the research on these matters.

All you are doing is making excuses without examining the evidence that are there’d those that don’t exist.

I'm hardly making excuses. I'm offering plausible possibilities.

I never claimed that ancient Israel did not have access to the myths and legends of ancient Mesopotamia - including the tales of Gilgamesh.

All I claimed was that them knowing it wouldn't prove that they did not already know a version of that same story. With their own names and places.

There is no reason that both the ancient Mesopotamians and the ancient Israelites did not know and were telling the same stories - separated by distance, culture and millennia.

The ancient Babylonians had developed a written language long before Israel did.

The written testimony of a person who witnessed an event does not determine that the testimonies of witnesses of the same event written afterward are copying the first.

Simply put - I cannot confirm or deny anything - but nothing you have shared proves that the story of Noah in Genesis did not happen.

You're just going to need to provide more.