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Noam Chomsky on NATO...

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
The Warsaw Pact existed independently from the Soviet Union.
But it was undone probably because there was the intention to create a new alliance between USA and Russia.
If we analyze all the Yeltsin years...it is all about that.
But something went wrong.
Evidently someone still considered the NATO an organization that was meant to exclude Russia a priori.

Sometimes, it seems that geopolitics is some kind of melodramatic soap opera, where motives can become unclear and inexplicable. The rhetoric can sometimes come across as vague and convoluted.

Centuries ago, one might look back and find greater clarity. The enmity between Russia and the West back in those days could have been attributed to a religious dispute. The Orthodox Russians could not see eye to eye with Western Catholics and Protestants.

But through most of the past millennium, Russia was hardly deemed much of a threat to Europe, as they were under the Mongol/Tatar Yoke for centuries, which also threatened Europe. The Ottoman Turks and the Moors in the West were also deemed serious threats to Europe, while Russia was pretty much off the radar at that time.

Eventually, Russia would grow in power and become instrumental in the defeat of Napoleon. You'd think that such a thing would have led to more friendly and cordial relations with their allies such as Great Britain. Europe was going through growing pains of her own in the early stages of industrialization, culminating in the Revolutions of 1848 and the rise of nationalism in multiple European states.

Britain's role in the Crimean War would indicate that they wanted to maintain the Ottoman Empire as a kind of buffer zone to prevent the Russians from pushing further south. Although the Russians had a longstanding enmity with Turkey going back centuries, the British somehow viewed it as a threat to their empire, which is kind of curious when you think about it. Russia was essentially landlocked, and whatever outlets to the sea they could gain were frozen much of the time.

The British might have also seen Japan as an effective buffer against Russian expansionism in the far east.

So, for whatever reason, Britain started seeing Russia as a threat to their global interests during the 19th century, but then, the growing threat posed by Germany turned their attentions to Germany. Their quick defeat of France in 1871 made France look weak. Russia was also starting to face various internal difficulties as the seeds of revolution were already being planted. I think the British were made nervous by Kaiser Wilhelm, who was a bit of a nutcase. There's a story about how he was 5 years old, at some state funeral in Britain, where he bit the ankle of some British royal (who apparently had hemophilia).

The relationship between France and Russia has always been interesting, as they seemed to have warmer relations than between Britain and Russia (or America and Russia). For the French, after the debacle of 1871, getting Russia on their side was an important foreign policy consideration. But the Russians were led by an incompetent, weak, and vacillating Tsar.

Sorry for the long digression, but there's a long history that needs to be considered for anyone to really get a clear picture. The current narrative seems to appeal to those with short attention spans and vague, incomplete understandings of history that it can get rather confused.

But the bottom line seems to be apparent that, regardless of what kind of government they have or what they've actually done in the geopolitical realm (both the positive and negative), there has been a longstanding, centuries-long mistrust and disdain for Russia that seems to emanate from the West. I don't know what it is, and sometimes it subsides, such as during periods of temporary alliance.

We tried to work together during the Detente era, and once Gorbachev came to power and introduced openness and the restructuring reform program, it appeared that Russia itself was making profound, positive changes for the better. What more could the West have asked for? The Berlin Wall fell, the Warsaw Pact disbanded, the Soviet Union had literally voted itself out of existence.

In America, I recall there were many who were expecting a huge "peace dividend," since the danger was now over and there was no longer any need for a big bloated defense budget and a huge war machine scattered around the globe. There was no longer any need to embroil ourselves in the various hot spots around the world, since there were no longer any worries about Soviet expansionism.

But based on their subsequent actions around the world, the US government demonstrated that it was never about "Soviet expansionism" at all. The whole thing was revealed to be an utter fraud.

But underlying all of that, the common thread of centuries of history would demonstrate mistrust and antipathy towards that nation.
 
Russians don't like smiling people, so better not be "nice". But the West "go back on their promise" is the issue here

I don't assume he would never invade, probably the opposite

Yesterday I heard an American woman say that Trump might have taken America out of NATO if he would have been given 4 more years. That would have been very convenient for Putin to invade.

There was no "promise" from the "west".

At best, there was an informal comment from someone associated with one specific US administration about that administration's position.

And if you assume NATO promises not to interfere in Eastern Europe would have also encouraged Putin, then it's not about NATO...
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
Sometimes, it seems that geopolitics is some kind of melodramatic soap opera, where motives can become unclear and inexplicable. The rhetoric can sometimes come across as vague and convoluted.

Centuries ago, one might look back and find greater clarity. The enmity between Russia and the West back in those days could have been attributed to a religious dispute. The Orthodox Russians could not see eye to eye with Western Catholics and Protestants.

But through most of the past millennium, Russia was hardly deemed much of a threat to Europe, as they were under the Mongol/Tatar Yoke for centuries, which also threatened Europe. The Ottoman Turks and the Moors in the West were also deemed serious threats to Europe, while Russia was pretty much off the radar at that time.

Eventually, Russia would grow in power and become instrumental in the defeat of Napoleon. You'd think that such a thing would have led to more friendly and cordial relations with their allies such as Great Britain. Europe was going through growing pains of her own in the early stages of industrialization, culminating in the Revolutions of 1848 and the rise of nationalism in multiple European states.

Britain's role in the Crimean War would indicate that they wanted to maintain the Ottoman Empire as a kind of buffer zone to prevent the Russians from pushing further south. Although the Russians had a longstanding enmity with Turkey going back centuries, the British somehow viewed it as a threat to their empire, which is kind of curious when you think about it. Russia was essentially landlocked, and whatever outlets to the sea they could gain were frozen much of the time.

The British might have also seen Japan as an effective buffer against Russian expansionism in the far east.

So, for whatever reason, Britain started seeing Russia as a threat to their global interests during the 19th century, but then, the growing threat posed by Germany turned their attentions to Germany. Their quick defeat of France in 1871 made France look weak. Russia was also starting to face various internal difficulties as the seeds of revolution were already being planted. I think the British were made nervous by Kaiser Wilhelm, who was a bit of a nutcase. There's a story about how he was 5 years old, at some state funeral in Britain, where he bit the ankle of some British royal (who apparently had hemophilia).

The relationship between France and Russia has always been interesting, as they seemed to have warmer relations than between Britain and Russia (or America and Russia). For the French, after the debacle of 1871, getting Russia on their side was an important foreign policy consideration. But the Russians were led by an incompetent, weak, and vacillating Tsar.

Sorry for the long digression, but there's a long history that needs to be considered for anyone to really get a clear picture. The current narrative seems to appeal to those with short attention spans and vague, incomplete understandings of history that it can get rather confused.

But the bottom line seems to be apparent that, regardless of what kind of government they have or what they've actually done in the geopolitical realm (both the positive and negative), there has been a longstanding, centuries-long mistrust and disdain for Russia that seems to emanate from the West. I don't know what it is, and sometimes it subsides, such as during periods of temporary alliance.

We tried to work together during the Detente era, and once Gorbachev came to power and introduced openness and the restructuring reform program, it appeared that Russia itself was making profound, positive changes for the better. What more could the West have asked for? The Berlin Wall fell, the Warsaw Pact disbanded, the Soviet Union had literally voted itself out of existence.

In America, I recall there were many who were expecting a huge "peace dividend," since the danger was now over and there was no longer any need for a big bloated defense budget and a huge war machine scattered around the globe. There was no longer any need to embroil ourselves in the various hot spots around the world, since there were no longer any worries about Soviet expansionism.

But based on their subsequent actions around the world, the US government demonstrated that it was never about "Soviet expansionism" at all. The whole thing was revealed to be an utter fraud.

But underlying all of that, the common thread of centuries of history would demonstrate mistrust and antipathy towards that nation.

I am sorry. But in Europe there has never been such mistrust towards Russia. Not even during the Communist period.
Catherine the Great was German. Russians let her rule the largest country in the world.

Trust me..it is an exclusively American thing.

I am telling you from the bottom of my heart...
I really wish Russia and US got along. :);)
.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
There are people who continually offer good insights that you hadn't thought of.

Not sure any politicians though,and they tend not to be your generic, brand name pundits either as to be a generic brand name pundit you have to opine beyond your expertise

Perhaps, although if someone's views are already well-publicized and well-known, then their positions might be easier to predict. Of course, there's outliers, mavericks, and oddballs who might seem a bit more random and unpredictable - although that's not always viewed as a good thing.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I am sorry. But in Europe there has never been such mistrust towards Russia. Not even during the Communist period.
Catherine the Great was German. Russians let her rule the largest country in the world.

Trust me..it is an exclusively American thing.

I am telling you from the bottom of my heart...
I really wish Russia and US got along. :);)
.

Some countries in Europe, that may be true. Not all countries in Europe have acted the same or in concert with each other. America never really had anything to fear from Russia. They sold us Alaska in 1867, and we haven't really had any territorial issues since then. They haven't said anything about wanting it back.

If we're looking strictly at America's interests alone, we had no interest in the Crimean War. That was Britain and France who wanted to stop Russia from invading Turkey. We had no great concern about the Russo-Japanese War either, although inasmuch as our interests were starting to align with Britain's, it was felt that Russian incursions in East Asia might upset the balance of power in the holdings of other European powers.

When the Communists took over, Americans largely saw it as an ideological threat, but not a direct military threat, at least not until after WW2 when the Red Army and Soviet military might were at their peak. But that's where there was a disconnect as US opposition seemed to be based on two parallel ideas which didn't always seem congruent.

On the one hand, we opposed strictly for ideological reasons - anyone who was socialist, leftist, pinko, etc. was to be regarded as a traitor and an enemy of America and our way of life. Even liberals and progressives would get caught up in this reckless wave which dominated our political culture.

And then there was the military/geopolitical threat of "Soviet expansionism," which was also ideologically based but also involved a lot of strategic, military-oriented jargon. That's how we got involved in places like Korea and Vietnam - and elsewhere around the world.

But by the same token, it was also about protecting Europe, or at least that portion which was on our side of the Iron Curtain. But it clearly wasn't an American invention that Russia was viewed with mistrust. We may have capitalized on it and used it to our own advantage (which was something we shouldn't have done, since now it's come back to bite us). But it wasn't something that started in the U.S., and we certainly have no monopoly on it.
 

Mock Turtle

Oh my, did I say that!
Premium Member
Hearing Putin on the first day, he was quite arrogant advising Ukrainian soldiers to give up in advance, so yes, it's much tougher than Putin anticipated

Putin anticipates also that no one dares to fight his nukes. It seemed to me Putin played Russian Roulette,although with his nuclear power I guess no one dares to challenge him
I think most view his blathering as foolish rhetoric, and as to which he has done so in the past too - Crimea and elsewhere - but since he just doesn't seem to be rational, I suspect many just don't want to provoke him. Hence why so many were so surprised as to the invasion - it was just not rational to do so, given that the rewards were nowhere near the gains he hoped to achieve and the harms coming back were rather obvious - but not to him apparently. :oops:
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
The problem for Russia is NATO has been growing and adding countries from Eastern Europe, like Poland, with Ukraine also wishing to be part of NATO. This is very unsettling to Putin and Russia, so a gesture was made to reverse this trend back to the security of the former USSR; buffer zones around Russia instead of an old Cold War enemy on your doorstep.

His main source of fear is connected to the USA. This is a unique time politically in the USA, with a social Civil War being instigated from both sides but mostly from the side that hates America; Left. The Democrats are not new to starting Civil Wars, since they did this in the 1860's to maintain slavery.

This is not the same USA, as during the era of the dismantling of the USSR. Then the USA was more unified and under common sense control. But since then, the American Left and has tried to alter the country into Big Government into Socialism and in doing so has created international insecurity, since all economies needs a strong USA capitalist partner.

Putin is more old fashion and could accept the America of the late Cold War Era. This was the American cultural background for dismantling the USSR. But he is paranoid of the new divided America, since it has become an unpredictable wild card based on elections, false charge and fake news. This is not the same nation Putin semi-trusted, as before, when it was considered safe to dismantle the USSR and expose Russia.

The Conservatives are more old school and are less feared by Putin, since they don't talk with two faces like the Left; ends justify the means. For example, we all knew where Trump stood, whether we agreed with him of not. He did not wave in the wind or do surveys to manipulate the undecided. He is still the same. Biden used to be down the middle, but has swung extreme left. Putin needs solid reassurance from people with the one face for conviction, or else he will continue to fortify his nation via USSR expansionism.

The Left is also the side that is preaching Globalism. If we did achieve globalism, where does the Left see itself? In the drivers seat. This is an international threat to sovereign nations. One way to have globalism is some type of war; physical or economic, since not everyone wants this or feels safe by this goal. Resistance is strong, so the approach may need to become stronger.

I tend to think that after the midterms, and the Republican win seats in both Houses and control the Senate and House this will settle down. Globalism ambitions, will be done for now. However, the Left is predictable and may start riots and claim voter fraud, while ignoring their poor record. They will blame everyone bur themselves for their disaster.

Don't get me wrong, I do not think Russia should have invaded Ukraine. But I can see why he is paranoid with the current USA. If you political goal was to destabilize the USA, with division, you will also destabilize the rest of the world. People like Putin will feel this first. USA needs to find a common front, that does not look like impending civil war, with fake news fanning the flames. There may be some useful changes made by the new Majority in the fall of 2022, such as holding social media's foot to flames, since they contribute to instability with two faced censorship.
I find your views irrational. But I support the Democrats in most things related to ideology and policy. So....
Putin would find Trump comforting, as Trump is a far right authoratarian rabble rouser like. Hopefully Trump never gets back power and Putin gets removed from power soon.
 
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sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
It isn't colonial if there's no colonization.
This doesn't make the war right...but Iraq
wasn't & isn't a US colony.
Russia's invasion of Ukraine is different.
It's about conquering a country to make
it part of the Russian Empire.
Iraq was about installing by force a govt friendly to the US interests. That is colonialism. Indirect form, but a form.
Historically this was done to China in the 19 th century through opium wars by the British. In India too 70% of the territory was actually ruled by local kings, but British controlled all foreign policy and uninstalled less cooperative kings. It's a well known colonial strategy of indirect control.
Egypt was also controlled like this only by the British.
 

stvdv

Veteran Member
but since he just doesn't seem to be rational, I suspect many just don't want to provoke him. Hence why so many were so surprised as to the invasion - it was just not rational to do so, given that the rewards were nowhere near the gains
Putin might (love to) exhibit fearlessness, but he has lots of fear for the West (their military power). People with fear act in strange ways and behave unpredictable, and can easily become a great danger for all around.

As a frightened man, and feeling like a cornered cat he might even use his nukes, hence I rather have the West don't play messy games with Russia. For decades we never had Russian trouble here in Europe, and I rather keep it that way.

Better NATO stops pushing to get more members unless Russia becomes a member of course
 

stvdv

Veteran Member
The problem for Russia is NATO has been growing and adding countries from Eastern Europe, like Poland, with Ukraine also wishing to be part of NATO. This is very unsettling to Putin and Russia, so a gesture was made to reverse this trend back to the security of the former USSR; buffer zones around Russia instead of an old Cold War enemy on your doorstep.
Exactly, and I am surprised people just don't get this
Don't get me wrong, I do not think Russia should have invaded Ukraine. But I can see why he is paranoid with the current USA. If you political goal was to destabilize the USA, with division, you will also destabilize the rest of the world. People like Putin will feel this first. USA needs to find a common front, that does not look like impending civil war, with fake news fanning the flames. There may be some useful changes made by the new Majority in the fall of 2022, such as holding social media's foot to flames, since they contribute to instability with two faced censorship.
Oh wait, suddenly I get it why they don't get it, because they then have to admit that they are as well responsible for the war Putin started...a huge confrontation
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Iraq was about installing by force a govt friendly to the US interests.
If it were colonialism, ie, we installed a government
for the purpose of taking resources, I'd agree.
I might even approve about making a profit as we
"fixed" their ****hole country, making it better for them
in the process. But we didn't. We went there to lose
money...& people. We gained nothing but notoriety
around the globe.
That's not colonialism...it's worse... it's....
Team America: World Police saving Paris from the
terrorists by destroying The Eiffel Tower, The Louvre, etc.
 
Trust me..it is an exclusively American thing

But in Europe there has never been such mistrust towards Russia.

Nonsense.

You may want to ask a few Eastern Europeans before peddling such obvious delusions.

Why do you fawn over Russia but are so contemptuous and patronising towards Eastern Europeans?

Do you even count them as real Europeans?
 
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