Non-Belief and the Inner Self

[Sunstone]

The transition according to RS is organic. His is geological whilst yours is hormonal. So you agree.

I'm sorry, Ozzie, but I have no idea what you're talking about. Could you explain?

 

[Rolling_Stone]

Still,... one must consider that the very environment in which each generation find themselves is different from the last, so both are appropriate. Much of what was considered essential values and passed on from one generation to the next, at some time may be no longer essential and so it is appropriate that all the eggs are not in the one basket. Confusing as it is to the mortal mind, I suspect the 'alchemy' of life on and of planet earth is unfolding according to its design criteria.

Absolutely!! Both are appropriate indeed and indespensible! I even said so many times in many threads. The Divine from above, nature from below. (I used to work in an oil refinery and spent many hours contemplating how the distillation process correlates with our own inner life: multiple feeds, side cuts and, for light ends, venting to the fuel gas system.)

 

[Troublemane]

Or (presumably) when I have a direct experience of "deity", I must first pause to ascertain whether I believe in "deity"?

LoL!---it can have that effect! its the postmodern reaction to deity---God shows up and you say "wow, neurons firing strangely today"

 

[Troublemane]

I wonder if I'm the only nonreligious person who has a problem with the way religion has attempted to monopolize the individual's search for meaning. It seems that society sees people who don't believe in gods, mysticism, or life after death as emotionally stunted and amoral.

Believers would have us think of the world as divided between outer and inner reality. The outside is the domain of scientific models and empirical testing. According to religious people, the inside is the soul, the domain of religious mysteries and spiritual truth. Is this realistic? If people want to occupy their time seeking the 'divine truth within,' that's their business. But for believers to suggest that that's the only responsible way to become a fulfilled person is like a hammer-maker denying the existence of other tools.

In my opinion, religion or belief in the supernatural is unnecessary for human fulfillment and meaning. A loving family, engagement with art and science, and an open imagination are also important facets of the development of the individual's inner self.

theres alot here that is worthy of frubals, but sadly im out for now! (...shhh, dont tell esceptico, but hes on the road to being a mystic! he just pointed out the inconsistency of dualistic division between inner and outer worlds!!)

 

[Willamena]

Secularism corresponds with bootleg whiskey made in a non-continuous process: inefficient and ultimately a relatively poor quality.

How does this differ from ignorant approaches to religious beliefs?

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Absolutely!! Both are appropriate indeed and indispensable! I even said so many times in many threads. The Divine from above, nature from below. (I used to work in an oil refinery and spent many hours contemplating how the distillation process correlates with our own inner life: multiple feeds, side cuts and, for light ends, venting to the fuel gas system.)

That explains the artwork!

May I offer this additional clarifying comment...
No one sees anything amiss if class 4 students are unable to deal with the
curriculum of class 7, since it is understood that a school is a form of corporation whose mission it is, is to be a 'vehicle' through which infants enter the 'flow' and grow until graduation.
There is no judgement because it is understood that the curriculum of each class is designed to provide the prerequisite understanding for being able to 'deal' with the higher order of complexity of the next class.
If this understanding were applied to the larger environment, there would not be the misunderstanding there is.
If the form of egalitarianism that is accepted and understood to be reasonable in the school environment, were understood to apply to the larger planetary environment, elitism in all its forms would be seen for what it is, ..imperialism/school yard bullying!

 

[Willamena]

Some things are self-evident, Phil.

That's "projecting." :yes:

 

[ladybug83]

I wonder if I'm the only nonreligious person who has a problem with the way religion has attempted to monopolize the individual's search for meaning. It seems that society sees people who don't believe in gods, mysticism, or life after death as emotionally stunted and amoral... In my opinion, religion or belief in the supernatural is unnecessary for human fulfillment and meaning. A loving family, engagement with art and science, and an open imagination are also important facets of the development of the individual's inner self.

What if the things that religions teach--the existence of gods or a God, an afterlife, a rebirth, spiritualism, etc.--exist whether or not we believe in them? What if the connections we feel to art and science, to each other, have something to do with the things you don't believe in? What if part of what we feel when we experience fulfillment and meaning in life has something to do with things that are beyond us?

 

[Rolling_Stone]

That explains the artwork!

May I offer this additional clarifying comment...
No one sees anything amiss if class 4 students are unable to deal with the
curriculum of class 7, since it is understood that a school is a form of corporation whose mission it is, is to be a 'vehicle' through which infants enter the 'flow' and grow until graduation.
There is no judgement because it is understood that the curriculum of each class is designed to provide the prerequisite understanding for being able to 'deal' with the higher order of complexity of the next class.
If this understanding were applied to the larger environment, there would not be the misunderstanding there is.
If the form of egalitarianism that is accepted and understood to be reasonable in the school environment, were understood to apply to the larger planetary environment, elitism in all its forms would be seen for what it is, ..imperialism/school yard bullying!

Using my analogy, I would say each tower is distilling a different product, requiring different temperatures, different pressures and, sometimes, different sources of heat (experience) to get the process going. Raw information is like raw crude oil; a complex compound that need to be refined in order to substantially effect on the way we live.

Problem with my analogy, though, is that it doesn't work for anyone not familiar with the process.

 

[Rolling_Stone]

How does this differ from ignorant approaches to religious beliefs?

It doesn't. But it doesn't invalidate the underlying experience. Though the oil is crude, it still has propane.

 

[Escéptico]

What if the things that religions teach--the existence of gods or a God, an afterlife, a rebirth, spiritualism, etc.--exist whether or not we believe in them? What if the connections we feel to art and science, to each other, have something to do with the things you don't believe in? What if part of what we feel when we experience fulfillment and meaning in life has something to do with things that are beyond us?

Like I said in my OP, it sounds like you're saying, what if there are no other tools but hammers?

I'm confident that human fulfillment is altogether possible with or without the help of religion. Would you do me the courtesy of agreeing? Or do you consider your chosen path the only route to the truth?

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Problem with my analogy, though, is that it doesn't work for anyone not familiar with the process.

Oh I think it does,..as ladybug83 pointed out, the divine process is not dependent on belief.

The wheels turn slowly,
But they turn surely,
And they grind exceedingly fine!

 

[Rolling_Stone]

I'm confident that human fulfillment is altogether possible with or without the help of religion. Would you do me the courtesy of agreeing? Or do you consider your chosen path the only route to the truth?

Without religion, there is not enough heat for overhead and all goes through the botts.

 

[Rolling_Stone]

Oh I think it does,..as ladybug83 pointed out, the divine process is not dependent on belief.

Right, but it does require sufficient heat to be consciously entertained via religion.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Right, but it does require sufficient heat to be consciously entertained via religion.

Bottoms is also an essential part of the whole process,... how would we be wothout one.

 

[Sunstone]

I'm confident that human fulfillment is altogether possible with or without the help of religion.

I agree.

 

[ladybug83]

Like I said in my OP, it sounds like you're saying, what if there are no other tools but hammers?

I'm confident that human fulfillment is altogether possible with or without the help of religion. Would you do me the courtesy of agreeing? Or do you consider your chosen path the only route to the truth?

Perhaps I wasn’t very clear in my original response, and I apologize. I didn’t mean to imply that my “chosen path [is] the only route to the truth,” but I can’t agree with you, either. So let me try again, if I can just change the terminology a little…
Religion and spiritualism are two different things. Although many think they’re inseparable, the latter can actually exist without the former. With that said, would you agree that your feelings for your family and friends, for art and science, are true and valid—that they’re not simple but rather real and meaningful? If so, then this was my argument in my original response: Even if there were no religions on Earth, couldn’t it still be possible for your feelings and connections to have something to do with things beyond us, whether or not we knew it? Couldn’t it be possible for human fulfilment to be a spiritual experience?

 

[Rolling_Stone]

Bottoms is also an essential part of the whole process,... how would we be wothout one.

Yes, but its not the whole process.

If in the distillation process it's all botts, there is no need for the process. If there's no botts, it's for either one of two reasons: the feed already is pure--in which case there is no need for the process--or there is too much heat and everything flashes overhead.

It’s not so simple as to hear someone say, “I think a person can be fulfilled without religion” and tacitly agree or accept that point of view as legitimate. Sure, we can all be cozy and comfortable with political correctness, but does PC advance truth in the world? Does it do anything? Are we wrong to suppose a colorblind man has tools inadequate to the task and his life therefore incomplete? No one is blind to the fact that religion often acts unwisely, even irreligiously, but it acts. Religion is dynamic!

 

[Ben Dhyan]

It’s not so simple as to hear someone say, “I think a person can be fulfilled without religion” and tacitly agree or accept that point of view as legitimate. Sure, we can all be cozy and comfortable with political correctness, but does PC advance truth in the world? Does it do anything? Are we wrong to suppose a colorblind man has tools inadequate to the task and his life therefore incomplete? No one is blind to the fact that religion often acts unwisely, even irreligiously, but it acts. Religion is dynamic!

Think Buddhist,..the process is not confined to a finite period but is an eternal process.
In any one school year, there will only be a minority of students that graduate.
The infant students in class 1 are far from graduation relatively speaking, but their destiny within the school system process is to ultimately graduate.

For that reason it would be unreasonable to expect students of the lower classes to have any comprehension of or interest in say,..integral calculus. However there will come a time when the prerequisite knowledge is present for them to understand this more complex form of mathematics.

The same applies to this world,... people are not equal,..the intuitive faculty is yet undeveloped in many, a faculty that is essential for penetrating religious mystery.
But destiny and due cosmic process will ensure that all will develop this faculty and thus begin to discover mystery where before they could 'see' nothing.

I wouldn't think that many would see this view as PC.

 

[Rolling_Stone]

Hermann Hesse's Siddhartha learned from contemplating the river: I learnd from contemplating something quite different.

I'll expound on that later. It's bedtime for Bonzo.