Non-believer go to hell, who's fault?

[Thanda]

Well I don't think it is as easy as that. If there were just one solution to any given problem, we'd sure have a lot less trouble in our lives. It is precisely because there are many solutions that yield equally good results, that we often find ourselves stuck on solving problems.

The fact that we don't always know what the one solution is, does not mean the solution isn't there. We have a limited view of things, and from a limited view two choices may appear to have the same outcome. But from a broader and more long term view there may well turn out to be only one solution.

Also I think you just agreed to my point of God being able to think and do evil. Since you agreed that the option with the most positive impact and least negative impact (in short, the option that is the closest to the golden rule) would be the best option. Wouldn't you agree then, that God is capable and willing to cause harm (evil) to a being if this leads to the best scenario in the end?
Or is he unable to lead us to the best scenario, since he is unable of even causing harm to a person for the greater good, i.e. he can only perform actions or think of possibilities that do not require any person to get hurt in the first place?

Your problem is confusing harm with evil. Harm is not evil. When a policeman shoots down someone who was about to kill an innocent, he is causing harm to the assailant, but he is not doing evil. God is not a wimp, he will do what he needs to do to ensure righteousness is done. If that means ending someone's life that is precisely what he will do.

So God is definitely capable of causing harm, but he is not capable of causing evil - because whatever action he takes will always be the best under the circumstances.

 

[Nurion]

So God is definitely capable of causing harm, but he is not capable of causing evil - because whatever action he takes will always be the best under the circumstances.

Me, personally, I don't care if it is for the best. If anyone harms me and I do not think that I deserve to be harmed, then this person is committing something evil.
Necessary evil, but evil nonetheless (like Batman at the end of The Dark Knight).

 

[Thanda]

Me, personally, I don't care if it is for the best. If anyone harms me and I do not think that I deserve to be harmed, then this person is committing something evil.
Necessary evil, but evil nonetheless (like Batman at the end of The Dark Knight).

Lol! I feel ya!

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

muslim think that drinking wine sends you to hell, christian don't. If a christian drinks wine all is life and when he dies he find himself in front of allah he will go to hell.

Drunkenness is a problem in the bible, too. Eating certain seafood and wearing multiple fabrics are literally abominations unto the Lord as well. Still, that's up to God (Allah just being Arabic for God). As someone who values morality, though, there is nothing stopping me from bringing up pettiness on Judgment Day. Any God not willing to address the nature of morality is being a tyrant. Any God interested in morality servicing the greater good would care if such morals actually help that goal.

Really!

Ezekiel 25:16 & 17
thus says the Lord God, Behold, I will stretch out my hand against the Philistines, and I will cut off the Cherethites and destroy the rest of the seacoast. 17 I will execute great vengeance on them with wrathful rebukes. Then they will know that I am the Lord, when I lay my vengeance upon them.”

This is petty, and so is sending people to hell because they are cowards. Think people choose to be cowards? "I think I will be a coward." FYI, they don't

However, just because a character called God in a book is petty doesn't mean the God people worship has to be.

so basically god is saying that religions are useless?

Jesus said Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. Elsewhere in the bible, it is also implied or outright stated that God is less interested in ritual as He is in the moral nature of your soul. It's practically admitting religion is for our own psychological benefit and isn't doing anything for God objectively.

if that's the case, if in the end it matters only if your heart is good, why would he tell some people not to drink, some other people not to eat crabs, some people not to shave and some other people to kill their neighbour if he cut the grass on sabbath? It's the kind of things you always find in those special god inspired books you people always talk about, it's not something i say, it's something your god says. It's not my fault if sacred text are mostly full of nonsense.
If you say to me "who cares about the beard, the name you call god, if you pray or not, just be good to others all the rest doesn't matter" well i would be the first to shake your hand and hug you and i can assure you don't even need god to be good in that kind of way.

Books are written by human authors setting up stories to form a kind of club. The rules are meant for identity purposes only. When those rules become more important than reality and morality, idolatry becomes an issue, where the menu is being confused for the food.

That's just nonsense. I said God is fair, I didn't say people are going to go to heaven no matter what they believe in. Can you imagine someone going into heaven who doesn't believe heaven exists?

By fair I mean everyone will have a fair opportunity to live all the laws necessary to get into heaven. If for some reason they didn't quite have that opportunity on earth, they will have it in the next life before God makes a final judgement on them.

Jesus said the VIPs would be invited to the banquet, but they all had to wash their hair or anything, so then random people were invited instead.

Christianity loves to assume this is about Jews not accepting Christ and pagans coming to the wedding, but it can refer to Christians too.

Enlightenment is not about happy or sad. That is the dichotomous nature of the monotheistic faiths again. Enlightenment is about knowledge and understanding. One cannot be happy without knowing what sadness is. That is the trouble with the monotheistic faiths, IMO. The reliance on good V bad. There is no way to understand good without a complete understanding of what bad is as well. Its like having light but having no darkness. There has to be balance. That is what enlightenment is about, among other things. As for the person choosing to stay in the Bardo state, again, it is not something I would choose so I can't really speculate on that. I want to complete my journey and remaining there would be counterproductive to that.

I know Buddhism has something similiar to this thought, but I would rather stay in hell and help those who suffer than go to heaven with nothing to do

Would it make you happy if God punished people for doing things they honestly thought were right? Take Paul of the Bible for example. He honestly thought Christians were heretics and that he was doing God a service by having them jailed. What was God's response? Did he send him to hell? No, he appeared to him and helped him understand what he was doing was wrong. Immediately after that Paul forsook his old ways and did that which had now been shown to him to be right.

Considering I feel Paul to be a Trojan Horse, a Judas 2.0 designed to ruin Jesus' followers, I would suggesting using Jonah instead.

Doing something hurtful and doing something evil are two different things. For God, the ends always justify the means. This is because he is able to see the end of all actions. And you are right, an action on its own is neither good nor evil. It is the consequences (all the consequences for eternity) that determine whether an action is evil or not. So for a given scenario, in order to determine good or evil, every consequence of every option must be considered. The option with the most positive impact or the least negative impact (depending on how you want to look at it) is the right option. Any other option is evil.

That is why it is not enough to simply follow the Ten Commandments like a zombie. You need to be in constant communion with God so you can know when an action that is usually good, is not good for the particular situation you find yourself in.

I also feel an omnipotent and omniscient God shouldn't have to rely on the limited imaginations of biblical writers, who assumed blasting everything to hell was the only option. A LOT of the plots in the bible could've been avoided had anyone had an IQ over 10.

The fact that we don't always know what the one solution is, does not mean the solution isn't there. We have a limited view of things, and from a limited view two choices may appear to have the same outcome. But from a broader and more long term view there may well turn out to be only one solution.

Your problem is confusing harm with evil. Harm is not evil. When a policeman shoots down someone who was about to kill an innocent, he is causing harm to the assailant, but he is not doing evil. God is not a wimp, he will do what he needs to do to ensure righteousness is done. If that means ending someone's life that is precisely what he will do.

So God is definitely capable of causing harm, but he is not capable of causing evil - because whatever action he takes will always be the best under the circumstances.

This would be an example. For instance, the bible says that if a tree is growing crooked, cut it down and start over. However, HAD THE FARMER STABILIZED THE TREE IN THE FIRST PLACE, it would NOT be in that condition.

 

[Skwim]

However, just because a character called God in a book is petty doesn't mean the God people worship has to be.

How else are we to judge the god people tell us they worship?

 

[jeager106]

How else are we to judge the god people tell us they worship?

Pardon my intrusion in to your conversation but to "judge the god" question is answerable.
You investigate for yourself of course and draw the best conclusion you can.

 

[JoStories]

Jo, now I don't really know what to say to you anymore. Who said Ghandi is going to hell?

Secondly what do you want to happen with murderers? Do you want me to say they have no chance of going into heaven? Do you want me to say they have no hope? Of course they do. We are all God's children and he loves every one of us. That is what the point of the story of the Prodigal Son was all about. God is happy with those who are doing good all the time. But he cares also for those who are struggling. That man in prison, if he is sincere, has began his process of recovery. It will be a long journey but with God's help he will become every bit as righteous as Ghandi, Mandela or whoever else lived a good life. And if Ghandi, in his pride perhaps, thinks he are so righteous that he does not need God's help, then he will fall behind and that murderer you now see behind bars will become more righteous than him.

The point is everyone will get every opportunity to qualify for heaven. It is not for you and I to judge which people have done too much evil to allowed in there. Doing so is being like the pharisees. The pharisees, some of them, didn't commit some of the sins that others were guilty of. However they also had no faith in God. This meant their potential only reached as far as their ability. And since the ability of any person falls short of God's perfection, if they rely only on themselves they will make the grade required to enter heaven.

You're right. It doesn't say Gandhi gets to go to hell but the letter of your faith and when I say you or your, I am speaking of the general you, not you specifically, anyway..by the letter of your faith, those who do not believe in Christ are prohibited from heaven. Therefore, because Gandhi was Hindu, he would not be allowed in heaven. Now, my own personal views are that God is big enough to make Itself known to all faiths and that would include Gandhi going to heaven.
You're right about murderers, etc. It is my view and I cannot change that. In my mind, breaking the commandment of not killing is a pretty big faux paz. Furthermore, I would hate to be in heaven if it is filled with pedophiles and murderers who on their death bed claimed to have been 'saved'. Is that just? Hell no. But you are correct, it is not up to me.

 

[JoStories]

Firstly, understanding good and evil and doing good or evil (being good or evil) are two different things. God understands very well the difference between good and evil. However he never does, thinks or says anything evil. It would be erroneous to believe that in order to comprehend evil you have to do it. Evil is nothing more than the absence good; it is making a choice that is less than the best under the circumstances. So God is always aware of evil and he always avoids it. So while God is well aware of the evil that is all around him, there is no evil inside him.

There are two stages of righteousness. The first stage is having an understanding of good and evil (The story of Adam and Eve in the garden comes to mind). The second stage is making a choice between the two. Everyone will have, to some degree or another, an opportunity to experience the first stage. But it is the second stage that sets people apart as being righteous or evil.

Lastly, I think you know as well as i do that the stated beliefs of a certain group and their actual beliefs are not the same. Those who join ISIS do so for a wide variety of reasons, not merely because they believe they are serving Allah. But God will judge - he knows people's heart and he knows how much knowledge they had access to when they made their decisions.

In eastern faiths, an understanding of good and evil is very different than thinking one can choose to do evil. Personally, I don't believe in evil. I believe that some people make bad choices, and that is not the same as evil, as portrayed by people like Hitler, etc. Now, that said, I have in my career met one man who came as close as possible to the concept of evil. He was a murderer who was in max who had the deadest eyes I have ever seen and would kill people with anything handy simply because he felt like it. He came close to the idea of what we call evil. IOW, inherent evil, not a choice being made but living and breathing evil. But I also believe that some people are set upon the earth to enact historical lessons for humanity, hence, Hitler. A sad little man who for whatever reason hated the Jews and found a way to enact his insanity on them and teach the world about racism.
As for members of ISIS, I am left to ponder that one. I cannot fathom anyone reading a book and believing that God, by whatever name, wants those people to murder any and all who do not automatically mouth the platitudes of that faith. And to murder scores of people for their cause, at least for me, is anathema to what God would want, period. Evil, no. Misguided and stupid, you betcha.

 

[JoStories]

you don't have to believe anything, that's the point. They make the claim, they can't produce evidences, they should not be believed.
it's the very idea of believing that is trivial. If you can make people believe something that don't exists, than you can make them do things in the name of that something that doesn't exists. That not only is trivial but it becomes dangerous.

But you can't prove God does not exist anymore than they can prove God does. And therein lies the rub. You choose to believe there is no proof. Ok. Good for you. I choose to believe there is one. I am not asking you to believe anything. Furthermore, my faith is based on a principle that one should never do harm of any kind. How is that dangerous? I agree there are some fanatics out there. The Phelps' and others. Are there not historically dangerous atheists we can point to as well? Of course. So we are at an impasse, non?

 

[JoStories]

do you really think that is a religion achievement that? Civilization need shared rules to exists and those rules can be derived without religion.
Killers and thieves were punished all around the world even before god felt the need to say so to the jews.
Actually, and thankfully, our laws are mostly derived by secular principles. We don't put people in prison for not believing in god. Yet we put people in prison for killing or stealing because that is harmful to society and other people, not because that offends god.
if we come up to the conclusion that junk food is bad or smoking is bad we don't say "god don't want you to smoke and eat at mcdonalds" like we used 2000 years ago. we explain them that is dangerous and why. Than it's up to them to chose.

First of all, those principles you point to about not killing, etc, predate the Jewish Bible by many centuries. And the notion of not killing or stealing, etc, developed over time due to societal ideals. Before that, chaos ruled more or less until someone stood up and said no to these things. Was this based on the belief in God? Maybe. Maybe not. We can only speculate based on cave paintings, etc. As for belief in God and prison, etc, do you deny that even today in many places, belief, or the lack thereof, can and does often land one is jail or dead? Muslims behead those who are Christian. And eating junk food or smoking...wait a few decades and see if smoking is not made a jailable offense. Sort of like The Demolition Man and that scenario. Hawaii has raised the age of smoking and outlawed all public smoking already. Do you not see this happening right now?

 

[JoStories]

no effect on me? it has all sort of effects on me. I'm an atheist, if i go in saudi arabia and tell it openly i end up in prison. If that evil mentality spreads to my country for example i would be endangered.
if i was a gay person i would not be able to have civil rights because of religions.
If i end up with a cancer i can't cure i can't end my life the way i want because of religions, i would have to suffer like a dog, or jump down a window cause the laws of my county won't let the doctor inject me with a lethal dose of painkillers because that makes the pope sad.
there are idiots in america believing the world is 5000 years old and close to armageddon that actually have the nuclear codes.
And all sorts of things like these.
If religious people would simply decide to keep their things for themselves as something to apply to their own lives i would be happy of that. But that's not the world i live in.

What real effect do the YEC have on your right now? Their ridiculously stupid ideals are theirs and do not interfere in my life in any way. How do they make an impact on yours? How do those who believe in Armageddon being ready to start impact you? The rights of gay people have evolved to where today, I could have married my late partner. All states have SSM, so what civil rights do you not have? And end of life options are also evolving. Death With Dignity groups are lobbying all over and making inroads to getting people the right to end their life on their own terms. As for Saudi Arabia, you're right, you would go to jail but with any degree of hope, that mindset will change as the Muslim faith evolves much in the same way the Christian faith has. 500 years ago, not being Christian could have gotten you killed. Compare the two faiths and you see the parallels I speak of here.

 

[cambridge79]

What real effect do the YEC have on your right now? Their ridiculously stupid ideals are theirs and do not interfere in my life in any way. How do they make an impact on yours?

You look it from your perspective. You probably are a good people and your expectation on others is that they'll act like good people too. So a YEC in your view will just say "oh i believe earth is 5000 years old, no harm done, i sell shoes for a living so in the end who cares?" Well, the problem is that ideas spread. If an idiot in his room believes black people are inferiors it doesn't affect anyone. if that idiot starts spreading his idea the KKK is born. If an idiot in his room believes the jews are inferiors it doesn't affect anyione if that idiot starts spreading his idea the nazi party is born.
One idiot believing in his room that the earth is 5000 years old doesn't affect anyone. If that idiot starts spreading his idea who knows what can happen. Probably not bad things like the nazi or kkk but they're still dragging behind a whole nation. The percentage of YEC in america is alarming, if they become the majority of the country they have the potential to turn upside down the teaching system of the most advanced nation on earth. Best scientists in america are wasting time explaining people why men and dinosaurs didn't live toghterer instead of researching new stuffs. It's like having the police holding the hands of people who are afraid of the dark instead of chasing terrorists.

Stem cells are the future of medical research, everybody knows that. You have the potential to produce spare organs, repair limbs, maybe cure cancer, make paraplegic people to walk again and so on. In my country stem cell research was put on hold for religious reasons. How stupid is that? You say it doesn't affect my life, maybe in 10 years time i will need a heart transplant and i will die cause the stem research in my country has been left behind because of religion.
here's how my life is affected.

the problem is that bad ideas are bad ideas no matter what. Even more when bad ideas spreads becomes dangerous and harmful ideas. that's why you don't have to wait till they're spread, in my country we call it "closing the gate when all the sheeps have already run away"

How do those who believe in Armageddon being ready to start impact you?

are you kidding me? Isis are armageddon believers and are affecting the whole world. AlQaeda were armageddon believers and took down two towers. If an armageddon believer happens to become the president of the united states he may one day decide to drop a nuke over Beijin or Moscow just to start armageddon and anticipate the second coming of christ because he feels in his delusion that it's all part of a prophecy. People are killing other people for nonsense religious mumbo jumbo all around the world every day.

The rights of gay people have evolved to where today, I could have married my late partner. All states have SSM, so what civil rights do you not have?

i'm no gay and i'm not american so it's not about me. But in my country for example SSM is still a taboo. the reason? our politics always walk hand in hand with the pope. why? because the pope loves his power, our politics loves their powers and they help each others keeping their power, on the lives of the people they should represent and care about.

And end of life options are also evolving. Death With Dignity groups are lobbying all over and making inroads to getting people the right to end their life on their own terms.

yes and who are lobbying? They are lobbying those who say that I should suffer like a dog because THEIR god that I don't believe in like it that way. Does it even make sense? All the energy we are wasting to turn over crazy ideas is mind boggling.

As for Saudi Arabia, you're right, you would go to jail but with any degree of hope, that mindset will change as the Muslim faith evolves much in the same way the Christian faith has. 500 years ago, not being Christian could have gotten you killed. Compare the two faiths and you see the parallels I speak of here.

we don't and can't see the future. For what we know we may have the christian faith become closer to current muslim faith and not being christian will become again a fellony here. Muslims scientists back in the days were among the most advanced, now they've fallen back in the dark. History It's not always moving forward, it's like a tidal wave going back and forth and we have to affect that tidal wave. Rights are lost all the times if you don't fight to keep them. Democracy for example is not a modern product, it was something already present in the ancient greek time. We lost it for almost 2000 years before it popped up again.
That's why we should not take any risk. Because in our modern times we've gained things i don't want to be lost, like secularims, human rights and so on. Too many people died for those things.

on a side note, do you really need to use that font size? It makes it pretty messy to quote you.

 

[Thanda]

You're right. It doesn't say Gandhi gets to go to hell but the letter of your faith and when I say you or your, I am speaking of the general you, not you specifically, anyway..by the letter of your faith, those who do not believe in Christ are prohibited from heaven. Therefore, because Gandhi was Hindu, he would not be allowed in heaven. Now, my own personal views are that God is big enough to make Itself known to all faiths and that would include Gandhi going to heaven.
You're right about murderers, etc. It is my view and I cannot change that. In my mind, breaking the commandment of not killing is a pretty big faux paz. Furthermore, I would hate to be in heaven if it is filled with pedophiles and murderers who on their death bed claimed to have been 'saved'. Is that just? Hell no. But you are correct, it is not up to me.

Don't misinterpret me. In no way is professing belief in Jesus sufficient for salvation. And the letter of my faith (the Bible, Book of Mormon) makes that very clear.

As for non-believers (through no fault of their own) going to hell, that is also not born out by scripture. A particular example for this is the story of Jonah. After Jonah had reluctantly gone to preach to people of Ninevah that the city would fall if they did not turn to the Lord, the people repented. After their repentance the Lord stayed his judgement. This upset Jonah and he complained why the Lord had brought all this way to say the people would be destroyed if he was going to change his mind. The Lord's response, found in Chapter 4, is instructive:

11 And should not I spare Nineveh, that great city, wherein are more than sixscore thousand persons that cannot discern between their right hand and their left hand; and also much cattle?​

God speaks of having mercy on people who are ignorant. Clearly the God of the old testament is not the monster he is often made out to be. God is a fair judge and everyone will judge everyone in a very reasonable manner. There is no reason to assume that God will automatically send people to hell just for being born in the wrong part of the world.

​

 

[Thanda]

In eastern faiths, an understanding of good and evil is very different than thinking one can choose to do evil. Personally, I don't believe in evil. I believe that some people make bad choices, and that is not the same as evil, as portrayed by people like Hitler, etc. Now, that said, I have in my career met one man who came as close as possible to the concept of evil. He was a murderer who was in max who had the deadest eyes I have ever seen and would kill people with anything handy simply because he felt like it. He came close to the idea of what we call evil. IOW, inherent evil, not a choice being made but living and breathing evil. But I also believe that some people are set upon the earth to enact historical lessons for humanity, hence, Hitler. A sad little man who for whatever reason hated the Jews and found a way to enact his insanity on them and teach the world about racism.
As for members of ISIS, I am left to ponder that one. I cannot fathom anyone reading a book and believing that God, by whatever name, wants those people to murder any and all who do not automatically mouth the platitudes of that faith. And to murder scores of people for their cause, at least for me, is anathema to what God would want, period. Evil, no. Misguided and stupid, you betcha.

Well it's clear you're against the word evil. By my definition, a good person is someone who is committed to doing what they believe to be right. A person who cannot tell what is right or wrong is neither good nor evil, they cannot be judged. An evil person is someone who is not committed to doing what they believe is right. There are of course varying degrees of evil. That is why in my particular faith (I've tried not to complicate things so far) there is something called the three degrees of glory: the Celestial, Terrestrial and Telestial. The celestial is the highest and the telestial is the lowest kingdom of glory (or reward) a person may obtain (not entirely true, a person may receive no kingdom of glory, and they will go to a place called outer darkness). Those who don't live to the highest standard will inherit the lower kingdoms after (for some of them) suffering a time for their sins. (For more of this your can refer to Doctrine and Covenants 76 and 88 - Mormon scripture)

However the Lord has purposely not spent a lot of time talking about these lower kingdoms because that is not really what he wants us to reach for. And that is why the scriptures have been written as a heaven and hell kind of contrast. But be assured, God does understand that people have many shades grey and are not just black and white - but to obtain eternal life, the greatest of the gifts of God, you must be perfect. The atonement of Jesus Christ assists us to do that.

 

[JoStories]

You look it from your perspective. You probably are a good people and your expectation on others is that they'll act like good people too. So a YEC in your view will just say "oh i believe earth is 5000 years old, no harm done, i sell shoes for a living so in the end who cares?" Well, the problem is that ideas spread. If an idiot in his room believes black people are inferiors it doesn't affect anyone. if that idiot starts spreading his idea the KKK is born. If an idiot in his room believes the jews are inferiors it doesn't affect anyione if that idiot starts spreading his idea the nazi party is born.
One idiot believing in his room that the earth is 5000 years old doesn't affect anyone. If that idiot starts spreading his idea who knows what can happen. Probably not bad things like the nazi or kkk but they're still dragging behind a whole nation. The percentage of YEC in america is alarming, if they become the majority of the country they have the potential to turn upside down the teaching system of the most advanced nation on earth. Best scientists in america are wasting time explaining people why men and dinosaurs didn't live toghterer instead of researching new stuffs. It's like having the police holding the hands of people who are afraid of the dark instead of chasing terrorists.

Stem cells are the future of medical research, everybody knows that. You have the potential to produce spare organs, repair limbs, maybe cure cancer, make paraplegic people to walk again and so on. In my country stem cell research was put on hold for religious reasons. How stupid is that? You say it doesn't affect my life, maybe in 10 years time i will need a heart transplant and i will die cause the stem research in my country has been left behind because of religion.
here's how my life is affected.

the problem is that bad ideas are bad ideas no matter what. Even more when bad ideas spreads becomes dangerous and harmful ideas. that's why you don't have to wait till they're spread, in my country we call it "closing the gate when all the sheeps have already run away"

1. To answer your side note, I am legally blind, as the disclaimer at the bottom of all my posts makes very clear. I cannot see the font any other way. I apologize if it bothers you but for my sake, I must do this.
2. I am Buddhist so I take a very different look at these things that you do. My view is that these groups you mention are placed where they are to teach us something. Did not Hitler's heinous acts show the world the idiocy of racism? Of course, its not gone yet but things have improved dramatically from the days when Blacks had their own fountains. Sure, it needs more work but its been less than 100 years. In the grand scheme of things, that is a rather short time. And just so you know, I don't believe we're the most advanced nation on earth anyone and trust me, if Trump gets the White House, we will be far worse off in the eyes of the world. YEC are a fad, IMO. The facts are irrefutable about evolution. I do believe there was a 'higher power' that may ....read that again....MAY have had a hand in things but it is impossible to honestly believe the earth is 6000 years old. As for stem cell research, I am of two minds. You do know where they get these things, non? From leftover placenta's and aborted fetuses. What if the parents do not want to donate? Its their choice.
And lastly, who gets to define what these bad ideas are? You? Me? Hitler thought he was doing the world good. He truly believed that. Are you willing to dictate to those YEC that they can no longer believe as they wish? If you are, you take their choice away and in that case, you become no better than Hitler.

 

[JoStories]

are you kidding me? Isis are armageddon believers and are affecting the whole world. AlQaeda were armageddon believers and took down two towers. If an armageddon believer happens to become the president of the united states he may one day decide to drop a nuke over Beijin or Moscow just to start armageddon and anticipate the second coming of christ because he feels in his delusion that it's all part of a prophecy. People are killing other people for nonsense religious mumbo jumbo all around the world every day.

ISIS, to my understanding, is trying to convert the world to Islam. How is that Armageddon? You speak of 'nonsense religious mumbo-jumbo" which clearly indicates your views on all faiths. Shall we do away with them all on your say so? What then? Shall we then take the hope from the world, because for many, that is what their faith provides; hope. Shall we do this because you say so? Again, you become much like Mussolini. Dictating what people may or may not think or do. How is that better? You intimate a world that would become 1984 with Big Brother and the Thought Police telling us how to act and what to think. I cannot imagine a world so debased. As for a president dropping a nuclear device, did we not come close to that with the two shrubs...I mean Bushes? Would Trump be any better? Hell no. America has devolved. No democracy in the history of the world has ever worked successfully. The world loves war. It generates revenue. It gives governments something to focus on rather than taking care of real problems, like homelessness, hunger and national healthcare.

 

[JoStories]

i'm no gay and i'm not american so it's not about me. But in my country for example SSM is still a taboo. the reason? our politics always walk hand in hand with the pope. why? because the pope loves his power, our politics loves their powers and they help each others keeping their power, on the lives of the people they should represent and care about.

Understanding of homosexuality is evolving. Now, assuming you live in Italy, of course the RCC has to take the stand you indicate. I do see Francis making an inroad into the antiquated thinking of the past of it will take time. I do agree the RCC is power hungry and worse, is money hungry. But take the long view of things. 150 years ago, being gay could still lead one to death. At least today, it is a much better view of what sexuality is.

 

[JoStories]

we don't and can't see the future. For what we know we may have the christian faith become closer to current muslim faith and not being christian will become again a fellony here. Muslims scientists back in the days were among the most advanced, now they've fallen back in the dark. History It's not always moving forward, it's like a tidal wave going back and forth and we have to affect that tidal wave. Rights are lost all the times if you don't fight to keep them. Democracy for example is not a modern product, it was something already present in the ancient greek time. We lost it for almost 2000 years before it popped up again.
That's why we should not take any risk. Because in our modern times we've gained things i don't want to be lost, like secularims, human rights and so on. Too many people died for those things.

You're correct, we can't know the future but we can study the past to see the mistakes made and try to make a better choice. You are firmly against all faiths. That is very clear. Again, however, shall we demand that we all, all peoples, hold to your atheistic views on your say so? The faith of Islam is evolving and the parallels to the Christian faith of 500 years ago are quite clear. A cursory study would make that clear. What do you suggest here? Jail all YEC? Enact 1984? How? Please lay out your plans to rid the world of all faiths. I would love to know how you would do that.

 

[JoStories]

Don't misinterpret me. In no way is professing belief in Jesus sufficient for salvation. And the letter of my faith (the Bible, Book of Mormon) makes that very clear.

As for non-believers (through no fault of their own) going to hell, that is also not born out by scripture. A particular example for this is the story of Jonah. After Jonah had reluctantly gone to preach to people of Ninevah that the city would fall if they did not turn to the Lord, the people repented. After their repentance the Lord stayed his judgement. This upset Jonah and he complained why the Lord had brought all this way to say the people would be destroyed if he was going to change his mind. The Lord's response, found in Chapter 4, is instructive:

11 And should not I spare Nineveh, that great city, wherein are more than sixscore thousand persons that cannot discern between their right hand and their left hand; and also much cattle?​

God speaks of having mercy on people who are ignorant. Clearly the God of the old testament is not the monster he is often made out to be. God is a fair judge and everyone will judge everyone in a very reasonable manner. There is no reason to assume that God will automatically send people to hell just for being born in the wrong part of the world.

​

However, your example only speaks of people who are ignorant. What of those with the ability to choose freely and in choosing, reject the Christian view of God? I have been told over and over by well meaning people that because of my choice, I'm going to hell. And certain verses back me up on this...examples are John 14; 6 and Acts 4; 12. Also refer to John 3;3, 2nd Thessalonians 1; 8-9, but perhaps most telling is John 3;18.

“Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.”

There is very little way to misinterpret this verse.

 

[JoStories]

Well it's clear you're against the word evil. By my definition, a good person is someone who is committed to doing what they believe to be right. A person who cannot tell what is right or wrong is neither good nor evil, they cannot be judged. An evil person is someone who is not committed to doing what they believe is right. There are of course varying degrees of evil. That is why in my particular faith (I've tried not to complicate things so far) there is something called the three degrees of glory: the Celestial, Terrestrial and Telestial. The celestial is the highest and the telestial is the lowest kingdom of glory (or reward) a person may obtain (not entirely true, a person may receive no kingdom of glory, and they will go to a place called outer darkness). Those who don't live to the highest standard will inherit the lower kingdoms after (for some of them) suffering a time for their sins. (For more of this your can refer to Doctrine and Covenants 76 and 88 - Mormon scripture)

However the Lord has purposely not spent a lot of time talking about these lower kingdoms because that is not really what he wants us to reach for. And that is why the scriptures have been written as a heaven and hell kind of contrast. But be assured, God does understand that people have many shades grey and are not just black and white - but to obtain eternal life, the greatest of the gifts of God, you must be perfect. The atonement of Jesus Christ assists us to do that.

Yet, no one can be perfect. Its impossible. I have studied your three levels of attainment, which I find interesting. For me, they mirror some of the teachings of the levels of the Tree of Life from the Kabbalah. Malkuth is the lowest and mirrors what you call Telestial. These notions also can be compared to enlightenment, in a much more general way of course. Very interesting stuff, that. But back to being perfect, no one can be. Mistakes are a part of life. Some mistakes are grievous, some not so much. Also, consider that you say that these lower kingdoms are the result of suffering for sins. Note how that can be viewed from the POV of the Bardo state. My dissertation focused on the parallels between all faiths, albeit in terms of mysticism but it was fascinating and there were clear parallels to be found.