Non-believer go to hell, who's fault?

[JoStories]

I understand, but clearly you must know that the logical conclusion is that if what you believe turns out to be true then it will apply to everyone. It isn't a case of us getting to the other side and some people meeting Allah, others Jehovah, others Jesus, others Krishna, and atheists not waking up at all. In the end there is ultimately only one truth.

As for the bardo state. I suppose those are they who have given up on their salvation. And since (I assume) the only way to achieve ultimate happiness is to reach enlightenment, they will be forever unhappy. And being forever unhappy is what hell is all about.

How do you know they are unhappy? You also misunderstand the Bardo state. Its simply a way station. Ever see the movie "Defending your life"? Its a lot, IMO, like that. But keep in mind that this is merely my own opinion of what it is like. One cannot be proven anymore than heaven can be.

 

[JoStories]

Perhaps you missed the "God knows better what you think than you yourself"

What we say with our mouths is one thing .. what we really think deep-down might not correspond. If it does, then there is nothing to worry about, is there?

The above does NOT conflict with Islam & Christianity. Our heart (intentions) are more important than our actions or speech! We really can lie to ourselves .. convince ourselves about something that the subconscious knows is not true. Psychologists know this very well.

I strongly in the most possible way disagree with you here. IMO, actions are the most important of all things we do in the name of God. I was a nurse, advanced practice working in critical care. It was and and is my actions of caring that matter the most. If I treat a patient with disdain, despite what I might be thinking, I could very likely lose my license. Actions of being caring and treating people kindly is the best method I know of trying to live up to the tenets of my faith and God. I fight racism and bigotry with every breath, and elder abuse. If all I was doing were to be thinking of how bad those were, how is that living up to what God wants? In a word, its not. It is not until I prove myself by my actions that I am showing what God's love is. Murder, even done in allegedly the things that God supposedly wants such as in the name of a religion, is completely against what God would want. Thou shalt not kill means no murder, even in the name of a faith.

 

[JoStories]

That might well be so, but that does not mean that the same "psychobabble" doesn't apply to atheists.
..particularly atheists who think "that they know better than God" ( you know, the one in the Bible/Qur'an )

Do the people of your faith, particularly the members of ISIS, think they are doing God's work? Or do they simply reject the premise about not killing and point to another area of the Qu'ran? God also lives through other sacred texts, btw. Like the Vedas, Upanishads, the Teachings of The Buddha and many more. You insult the atheist but can you point that same degree of acumen to ISIS members and honestly say they are not doing exactly what God would NOT want done? And btw, I am not just picking on your faith. I can point to members of that church in Florida or the Fred Phelps of the world or many others. NO ONE can speak for God. Not one single person.

 

[Thanda]

How do you know they are unhappy? You also misunderstand the Bardo state. Its simply a way station. Ever see the movie "Defending your life"? Its a lot, IMO, like that. But keep in mind that this is merely my own opinion of what it is like. One cannot be proven anymore than heaven can be.

You seem to have a very different way of thinking. What is the point of enlightenment if it doesn't make people happy? Indeed why would someone, having entered the Bardo state, and having a choice between going through all the trials and tribulations of life, or remaining there; why would such an individual choose to continue if he will not become any happier by doing so?

And I know it is only your opinion - we're both discussing our opinions on the spiritual.

 

[Thanda]

And yet, Thanda, this is exactly what your faith professes. If one accepts Christ as their Lord and Savior and does this in a serious manner, from the heart, they are saved and washed clean of all sin. Hence this hitman gets into heaven. And that is what I have serious issues with. The very worst thing I have ever done was shop life some perfume when I was 12. And I got caught and my dad was pretty upset with me as was the owner of the store. If I am sent to hell for this and that man gets to heaven, this, IMO, makes that faith seem capricious at best.

Do you have any idea how broad Christianity is? Do you understand the many "saved by grace" debates that are had almost daily between Christians? Do you know which side of the camp I fall into? Do you know my denomination? If your answer to any of these questions is know then you will understand what a big mistake it is to assume what my "faith" professes about how people obtain salvation.

To put it simply this is what my faith believes:

3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.

4 We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second,Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.​

We also believe we are "saved by grace, after all we can do".

​

 

[Thanda]

I strongly in the most possible way disagree with you here. IMO, actions are the most important of all things we do in the name of God. I was a nurse, advanced practice working in critical care. It was and and is my actions of caring that matter the most. If I treat a patient with disdain, despite what I might be thinking, I could very likely lose my license. Actions of being caring and treating people kindly is the best method I know of trying to live up to the tenets of my faith and God. I fight racism and bigotry with every breath, and elder abuse. If all I was doing were to be thinking of how bad those were, how is that living up to what God wants? In a word, its not. It is not until I prove myself by my actions that I am showing what God's love is. Murder, even done in allegedly the things that God supposedly wants such as in the name of a religion, is completely against what God would want. Thou shalt not kill means no murder, even in the name of a faith.

I think what Muhammed was getting at was hypocrisy. What ever you do must proceed from your heart for it to be of any value to you. A man may do many good things - but if he does them to be seen by others then his actions, though good on face value, will actually turn out to be evil. Good and evil are not states of doing - they are states of being.

 

[cambridge79]

That might well be so, but that does not mean that the same "psychobabble" doesn't apply to atheists.
..particularly atheists who think "that they know better than God" ( you know, the one in the Bible/Qur'an )

how do you know god is the one in the bible and qur'an?
Maybe the true god was the god of the australian aboriginals, we killed them, we pissed him, we're on the same boat and we'll spende eternity in hell.
Maybe since he is all knowing he know that one day this would happen and maybe he produced in the past the Qur'an and the Bible to trick us into believing in false gods so we can end up in hell cause he don't want us in his heaven with him.
Now, because he is the true god he can produce Qur'an and Bible in such a way that you won't be able to tell they're fake. So you can't disprove my theory pointing to the supposed "perfection of the Qur'an" because according to my theory the "perfection of the Qur'an" is a proof that the aboriginal god exists and is the best prankster in the universe.
How can you prove you're right and i'm wrong. Well you can't.
Yet you feel morally superior than me. that's all your wisdom in a nutshell. You think i'm crazy cause "i know better than god" and never realize you may be crazy cause you claim "to know god" while in fact you don't and can't know nothing. That's why what you do is called "faith" cause it can be true only as long as you believe it is.

 

[cambridge79]

i want to make this even further asking: BELIEVERS GO TO HELL. WHO'S FAULT?

it's clear to me that a muslim, a christian and an indu can't possibly be all right at the same time, so if one hell actually exists at least two of them will end up in it. who's fault than?

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

You seem to have a very different way of thinking. What is the point of enlightenment if it doesn't make people happy? Indeed why would someone, having entered the Bardo state, and having a choice between going through all the trials and tribulations of life, or remaining there; why would such an individual choose to continue if he will not become any happier by doing so?

And I know it is only your opinion - we're both discussing our opinions on the spiritual.

But the focus on happiness also makes it sound like we're just good with God as long as He kisses our behinds. The universe is not here to assist with our self-esteem issues.

I would rather know the Truth even than be happy. Happiness is transient, but the Truth is always there.

i want to make this even further asking: BELIEVERS GO TO HELL. WHO'S FAULT?

it's clear to me that a muslim, a christian and an indu can't possibly be all right at the same time, so if one hell actually exists at least two of them will end up in it. who's fault than?

Belief doesn't send one to hell, though. Whether or not you're an unrepetant evil jerkwad sends one to hell.

 

[cambridge79]

But the focus on happiness also makes it sound like we're just good with God as long as He kisses our behinds. The universe is not here to assist with our self-esteem issues.

I would rather know the Truth even than be happy. Happiness is transient, but the Truth is always there.


Belief doesn't send one to hell, though. Whether or not you're an unrepetant evil jerkwad sends one to hell.

muslim think that drinking wine sends you to hell, christian don't. If a christian drinks wine all is life and when he dies he find himself in front of allah he will go to hell.

 

[Thanda]

t's clear to me that a muslim, a christian and an indu can't possibly be all right at the same time, so if one hell actually exists at least two of them will end up in it. who's fault than?

That may sound logical, but it does not necessarily follow. It is possible that in addition to being just, God is also fair. And if he is then he wouldn't punish someone for doing something they honestly thought was right.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Now, because he is the true god he can produce Qur'an and Bible in such a way that you won't be able to tell they're fake. So you can't disprove my theory pointing to the supposed "perfection of the Qur'an" because according to my theory the "perfection of the Qur'an" is a proof that the aboriginal god exists and is the best prankster in the universe.
How can you prove you're right and i'm wrong. Well you can't.

Let's see shall we .. if G-d exists, then He would wish us to have guidance. Why would G-d want to 'produce fakes' ? .. makes no sense at all.

..You think i'm crazy cause "i know better than god" and never realize you may be crazy cause you claim "to know god" while in fact you don't and can't know nothing. That's why what you do is called "faith" cause it can be true only as long as you believe it is.

Faith is actually more complicated than that .. faith can increase and decrease .. our intentions and actions particularly affect it .. it's something that has to be cultivated.

 

[muhammad_isa]

it's clear to me that a muslim, a christian and an indu can't possibly be all right at the same time, so if one hell actually exists at least two of them will end up in it. who's fault than?

I hear this so often .. G-d is not a fool! He is also not petty. It's more about our heart (intentions) than what religion we 'belong' to

 

[Skwim]

I hear this so often .. G-d is not a fool! He is also not petty. It's more about our heart (intentions) than what religion we 'belong' to

Really!

Ezekiel 25:16 & 17
thus says the Lord God, Behold, I will stretch out my hand against the Philistines, and I will cut off the Cherethites and destroy the rest of the seacoast. 17 I will execute great vengeance on them with wrathful rebukes. Then they will know that I am the Lord, when I lay my vengeance upon them.”
​

This is petty, and so is sending people to hell because they are cowards. Think people choose to be cowards? "I think I will be a coward." FYI, they don't

 

[cambridge79]

That may sound logical, but it does not necessarily follow. It is possible that in addition to being just, God is also fair. And if he is then he wouldn't punish someone for doing something they honestly thought was right.

so basically god is saying that religions are useless?

 

[cambridge79]

Let's see shall we .. if G-d exists, then He would wish us to have guidance. Why would G-d want to 'produce fakes' ? .. makes no sense at all.

it's purely your assumption that god would wish us to have guidance. As i said foretold god hates the majority of us and want to mislead us cause he is bored. I know cause i had a revelation from him.

 

[cambridge79]

I hear this so often .. G-d is not a fool! He is also not petty. It's more about our heart (intentions) than what religion we 'belong' to

if that's the case, if in the end it matters only if your heart is good, why would he tell some people not to drink, some other people not to eat crabs, some people not to shave and some other people to kill their neighbour if he cut the grass on sabbath? It's the kind of things you always find in those special god inspired books you people always talk about, it's not something i say, it's something your god says. It's not my fault if sacred text are mostly full of nonsense.
If you say to me "who cares about the beard, the name you call god, if you pray or not, just be good to others all the rest doesn't matter" well i would be the first to shake your hand and hug you and i can assure you don't even need god to be good in that kind of way.

 

[Thanda]

so basically god is saying that religions are useless?

How did you come to that conclusion?

 

[cambridge79]

How did you come to that conclusion?

You just said god is fair. If we all can go to heaven no matter what we believe in basically it doesn't matter what we believe in. Also if you consider all the people that are doing wicked things in the name of religions, that god in his fairness will leave out of heaven, you can go as far as to say that not only they are useless but also harmful

 

[Thanda]

You just said god is fair. If we all can go to heaven no matter what we believe in basically it doesn't matter what we believe in. Also if you consider all the people that are doing wicked things in the name of religions, that god in his fairness will leave out of heaven, you can go as far as to say that not only they are useless but also harmful

That's just nonsense. I said God is fair, I didn't say people are going to go to heaven no matter what they believe in. Can you imagine someone going into heaven who doesn't believe heaven exists?

By fair I mean everyone will have a fair opportunity to live all the laws necessary to get into heaven. If for some reason they didn't quite have that opportunity on earth, they will have it in the next life before God makes a final judgement on them.