Non-believer go to hell, who's fault?

[Thanda]

I personally cannot conceive of ever wanting to stop so I am unable to fathom such a scenario. It is in no way a hell for me to want to achieve enlightenment. The process of moving through each lifetime can and has been painful, extremely so in some as in this lifetime. Losing one's children in not something I would have liked to have learned. I felt as though someone had reached into my being and ripped out my soul, literally. The pain of that experience was almost more than I could bear. But I, in my view of this journey, chose to experience this for whatever reason. So I have to trust my journey. But to want to stop moving along? Never.

I don't doubt that you would never want to stop, even when given the choice. I'm just asking you to consider the diversity of people in this world and to consider that there may be those who don't feel the way you do. My question is, what provision has your faith made for such people. Or does you faith believe they don't exist?

 

[Thanda]

I understand how you could see this this way but I don't see it that way. For me, the process of moving from one life to the next is not about carrying on with all of the faults or wrongdoings from all past lives but rather having put to rest those lessons that we did learn from previous lifetimes and finding other things we still need to experience or learn. My best friend and I have shared many lifetime together and in one, we were sex slaves. It was a horrid life and we both have discusses it at length. This time, I am experiencing loss and she is learning similar things as we work further along our path. Each life, IMO, gets further along this path. Imagine starting the journey as a serf and ending it as the lord of the mansion. This is one way to envision this, albeit one that is grossly unfair to those of lower classes and in no way do I mean disrespect. It is merely an analogy.

I think you keep missing my line of thinking. I'm not talking about the suffering that happens to someone. I am talking about the evil people do. That is, I'm talking about choices people make to do what they know very well to be wrong. These choices must surely make an impact on their souls no? The question is, what impact does it have on them according to Buddhist teaching?

Now let me take a step back. I think I'm starting to understand what you're trying to say. What you are saying is that in Buddhist teaching everything is a lesson. And Kharma helps people to learn their lessons. So if a person was a serial killer in the previous life he may in the next have to see someone close to him being taken by a killer. The assumption is then that he would learn from that and in the next life he won't decide to be a serial killer. Am I right?

 

[JoStories]

I suppose you're welcome to create any image of God you choose. God's gender is not that important. Even in the Bible there aren't any scriptures that discuss God's gender. It is just taken for granted he is male and then it is pretty much ignored afterward. The Ten Commandments were given to both genders. The commandment to pray was given to both genders. And the promise of salvation was given to both genders.

W.r.t your last two sentences - My understanding of a father is that he would do all he can to help his children avoid situations that are harmful to them. But any good father would always respect their children's freedom to choose. If a father has two children (let's suppose they are 19 and 20) and one of the children gets involved in gangsterism, the father would have to do all he can to help the wayward child see the light. If the child refuses however, the father has a responsibility to protect his obedient child. The obedient child has a right to a safe home and has a right to live in a home where he isn't constantly being pressured into joining gangs. For the obedient child's sake the father will need to cast the disobedient child out. Now of course the father could build a beautiful house for the unrepentant wayward child - which I'm sure is what you would want him to do - but brick will build a house but not a home. A beautiful house can either be a heaven or a hell depending on the people who live in there. The wayward son would likely invite his friends to his new home and the beautiful home his father built him would become a hell.

Understand this Jo, heaven and hell is what the people who live in it make it. The wicked will turn any place into hell. The righteous will turn any place into heaven. To quote JRR Tolkein: "For it is not the [land] that makes its people deathless, but the Deathless that dwell therein have hallowed the land"
Or to paraphrase him: For it is not heaven that makes people happy, but the happy that live there have made that place a heaven.

I understand that the paternal image of God works for those who follow your faith but it doesn't for me. I get your analogy but as the child of a person from another country than this, my father 'allowed' me to be homeless to make me understand things. This is not what I get from God. A father figure is not something that I find fits the Buddhist view of the Godhead. As for heaven or hell, I don't believe in either place. I had a patient once in a maximum security prison. A hitman for the Chinese mob who had killed men, women and children. This man assured me he was going to heaven as he had 'accepted Jesus'. If this is the kind of person permitted into heaven and someone like Ghandi is sent to hell, I would prefer hell.

 

[JoStories]

I don't doubt that you would never want to stop, even when given the choice. I'm just asking you to consider the diversity of people in this world and to consider that there may be those who don't feel the way you do. My question is, what provision has your faith made for such people. Or does you faith believe they don't exist?

Thing is, for me, my path and my understanding of God is not something that I believe pertains to anyone else. And yes, there is a belief that those who wish to stay in the Bardo state can do so. I personally don't understand that view but its not up to me to make choices for others.

 

[Thanda]

I understand that the paternal image of God works for those who follow your faith but it doesn't for me. I get your analogy but as the child of a person from another country than this, my father 'allowed' me to be homeless to make me understand things. This is not what I get from God. A father figure is not something that I find fits the Buddhist view of the Godhead. As for heaven or hell, I don't believe in either place. I had a patient once in a maximum security prison. A hitman for the Chinese mob who had killed men, women and children. This man assured me he was going to heaven as he had 'accepted Jesus'. If this is the kind of person permitted into heaven and someone like Ghandi is sent to hell, I would prefer hell.

I think I have made my position about what is required to get into heaven very clear in this very thread. Please look at my earlier posts to see what it is. From there you will learn that I would never say a murderer who accepts Jesus is suddenly more qualified for heaven than a man who spent his entire life doing the best he could do to live according to the truth that was in him.

 

[Thanda]

Thing is, for me, my path and my understanding of God is not something that I believe pertains to anyone else. And yes, there is a belief that those who wish to stay in the Bardo state can do so. I personally don't understand that view but its not up to me to make choices for others.

I understand, but clearly you must know that the logical conclusion is that if what you believe turns out to be true then it will apply to everyone. It isn't a case of us getting to the other side and some people meeting Allah, others Jehovah, others Jesus, others Krishna, and atheists not waking up at all. In the end there is ultimately only one truth.

As for the bardo state. I suppose those are they who have given up on their salvation. And since (I assume) the only way to achieve ultimate happiness is to reach enlightenment, they will be forever unhappy. And being forever unhappy is what hell is all about.

 

[Shad]

God deny's no one anything. Can you imagine a student at a university refusing to study and then ultimately failing; can you imagine that student blaming the university and saying "This university is cruel! How could they deny me my degree". Now tell me, who really denied the student the degree, the university or the student himself?

Except the universities have a system in which programs are granted accreditation which is accept almost globally by other universities . Your religion does not have this. You have multiple religious "programs/claims" many of which are mutually exclucive. It would be like the physics program from Yale is rejected by Harvard. Change university for religion and you will see my point clearly. Universities also have far better methods of communication compared to a religions which use scripture from the bronze, iron and post-iron age. University students can also challenge the program and the lecture. We can not question God as God inst around to answer questions at all.

Horrible comparison.

 

[Thanda]

Except the universities have a system in which programs are granted accreditation which is accept almost globally by other universities . Your religion does not have this. You have multiple religious "programs/claims" many of which are mutually exclucive. It would be like the physics program from Yale is rejected by Harvard. Change university for religion and you will see my point clearly. Universities also have far better methods of communication compared to a religions which use scripture from the bronze, iron and post-iron age. University students can also challenge the program and the lecture. We can not question God as God inst around to answer questions at all.

Horrible comparison.

Firstly God will judge according to our knowledge. Everyone has a sense of right and wrong and every has a conscience. If you live contrary to your own conscience doing things you know are wrong then you will fail your exam. And I think this line of thinking is quite consistent throughout most if not all religions. There aren't too many religions you can run to that will justify sleeping with another man's wife.
Your first point has been addressed.

On your second point - it would actually be more like different universities having different registration procedures and qualifying criteria. There is every possibility Harvard could reject a perfectly valid Yale application

And God communicates with us by the power of the Holy Ghost.

 

[Shad]

Firstly God will judge according to our knowledge.

What about our justification for holding something as knowledge in comparison to false knowledge? Will God consider what I know about archaeology and admit that God's own method of communication failed due to being so flawed? Knowledge we claim to hold is irrelevant compared to the methods and reason for claiming knowledge.

Everyone has a sense of right and wrong and every has a conscience. If you live contrary to your own conscience doing things you know are wrong then you will fail your exam. And I think this line of thinking is quite consistent throughout most if not all religions. There aren't too many religions you can run to that will justify sleeping with another man's wife.

Here is the problem. God endorsed views I oppose (in specific religions). Thus I consider something evil that God considered good. We have a conflict here. If my internal moral compass is to be followed a number of supposed Gods are evil. After all you said I get to follow my own conscious rather than the dictates of primitives from the bronze age. Many religions claim I need to accept these dictates otherwise I am screwed. If these dictates are not important then these religions offer me nothing, as per following my own moral compass.

What happens if I have a warped sense of morality. What if I thought slavery was good not evil. Will I be judged as a good person for following a moral compass God and most modern people disagree with? Do my horrible acts of say enslaving someone turn into a moral one because I believed it was right?

Your first point has been addressed.

No it hasn't as a university does not allow for subjective answers for test. I can not answer 1+1=3 because I believe that it is right. Whereas you just put forward that my own moral compass is my guide. The university example is objective while your moral example is subjective. Your answer only shows you answer in an irrational manner, nothing more.

On your second point - it would actually be more like different universities having different registration procedures and qualifying criteria. There is every possibility Harvard could reject a perfectly valid Yale application

Yet I will still receive a program which is accredited by almost all universities where as religion has no such view. I can just go to Yale and had proper certification as if I were at Harvard. Only a nutcase would decline a certified expert in X if they were educated at Yale rather than Harvard. Individual merit matters when programs are accredited. There are also reason for rejection of application which can be challenge, at the very least known to the application. There is also an administration I can contact yet your administrator (God) has been out to lunch for centuries while taking no appointment, ever. More so if other programs are acceptable then other religions are also acceptable. Which makes Christianity no more special than any other religion. More so if I still follow my own moral compass then all religions are useless. As you said my own moral compass is enough.

And God communicates with us by the power of the Holy Ghost.

Useless religious rhetoric. My Ghost told me you are wrong and Christianity is false. You have nothing to say that can counter this as it is equally a useless bit of sophistry put forward as an answer.

You just used relativism to defend God but in doing so you make God subjective according to everyone's individual view.

 

[muhammad_isa]

What happens if I have a warped sense of morality. What if I thought slavery was good not evil. Will I be judged as a good person for following a moral compass God and most modern people disagree with? Do my horrible acts of saying enslaving someone turn into a moral one because I believed it was right?

The answer is very simple .. "Almighty God is closer to you than your jugular vein" ..

That is, He is aware of your thoughts .. language is irrelevant .. He knows what you are thinking better than you do yourself!

Divine jusiice is just that .. nothing more, nothing less.

 

[Shad]

The answer is very simple .. "Almighty God is closer to you than your jugular vein" ..

That is, He is aware of your thoughts .. language is irrelevant .. He knows what you are thinking better than you do yourself!

Divine jusiice is just that .. nothing more, nothing less.

Useless religious rhetoric. If God knows my reasons then God has no issues with my evaluation of God's flawed methods on communication nor that I dismiss religions and their claims to truth. Religion is not required at all. Which make Islam and Christianity pointless. None contain anything of value that people developed such systems on their own.

You argument also reduces religion to a favour in which anyone can decide what is correct according to their own views. This is a result of trying to obscure the exclusive claims of many religions so the religion is more palatable to the masses. However you didn't think it through thus undermined your own religion while attempting to defend it.

 

[Astravalon]

Title.

Edit: If you think anyone is at fault, explanation is welcome.

I don't believe in hell (and cast my vote accordingly).


-

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

I understand, but clearly you must know that the logical conclusion is that if what you believe turns out to be true then it will apply to everyone. It isn't a case of us getting to the other side and some people meeting Allah, others Jehovah, others Jesus, others Krishna, and atheists not waking up at all. In the end there is ultimately only one truth.

As for the bardo state. I suppose those are they who have given up on their salvation. And since (I assume) the only way to achieve ultimate happiness is to reach enlightenment, they will be forever unhappy. And being forever unhappy is what hell is all about.

There is a chance, though, that the divine presence is single but we all call it something culturally derived. We COULD meet God, Jesus, Krishna, etc ... because they are all facets of the same jewel...

Firstly God will judge according to our knowledge. Everyone has a sense of right and wrong and every has a conscience.

Except sociopaths. It takes mirror neurons to have empathy.

If you live contrary to your own conscience doing things you know are wrong then you will fail your exam.

If you cheat you will pass and if you study you will fail. At least, that's how it works for some people.

And I think this line of thinking is quite consistent throughout most if not all religions. There aren't too many religions you can run to that will justify sleeping with another man's wife.

LOL. It's ALL OVER the bible ...

 

[muhammad_isa]

If God knows my reasons then God has no issues with my evaluation of God's flawed methods on communication nor that I dismiss religions and their claims to truth..

Perhaps you missed the "God knows better what you think than you yourself"

What we say with our mouths is one thing .. what we really think deep-down might not correspond. If it does, then there is nothing to worry about, is there?

The above does NOT conflict with Islam & Christianity. Our heart (intentions) are more important than our actions or speech! We really can lie to ourselves .. convince ourselves about something that the subconscious knows is not true. Psychologists know this very well.

 

[Shad]

Perhaps you missed the "God knows better what you think than you yourself"

Useless religious tripe. If God knows I am a believer when I know I am not then self is an illusion and free will is pointless. More so the illusion of self can not be judged as it is not the real me.

What we say with our mouths is one thing .. what we really think deep-down might not correspond. If it does, then there is nothing to worry about, is there?

Useless assertion presented as a universal. I do not believe in God, there is no conflict between what I type and what I think.

The above does NOT conflict with Islam & Christianity. Our heart (intentions) are more important than our actions or speech! We really can lie to ourselves .. convince ourselves about something that the subconscious knows is not true. Psychologists know this very well.

Apply your psychobabble to religion. People convince themselves God is real and their religion is true. There is far more evidence of self-deception for religions than for atheists. After all how many religions are now extinct? Hundred to thousands would be my guess.

Care to try again?

 

[muhammad_isa]

There is far more evidence of self-deception for religions than for atheists..

That might well be so, but that does not mean that the same "psychobabble" doesn't apply to atheists.
..particularly atheists who think "that they know better than God" ( you know, the one in the Bible/Qur'an )

 

[Shad]

That might well be so, but that does not mean that the same "psychobabble" doesn't apply to atheists.

Sure but given the high number of man-made religions your view has the lower plausibility than mine. Point is that your argument hurts your case far more than mine.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Sure but given the high number of man-made religions your view has the lower plausibility than mine. Point is that your argument hurts your case far more than mine.

Besides the point .. I was replying to your post 289, explaining that God knows what we think better than ourselves.

..stating that it's "useless religious tripe" does not make it so

 

[Shad]

Besides the point .. I was replying to your post 289, explaining that God knows what we think better than ourselves.

..stating that it's "useless religious tripe" does not make it so

It does since you can not demonstrate it. It only has meaning to the believer. it is worthless to the unbeliever. I am an unbeliever. Hence why I was specific by including "religion" as a parameter. You merely assert a deity, which I already reject, has knowledge of me based on your view as if it would convince me of anything.

 

[JoStories]

I think I have made my position about what is required to get into heaven very clear in this very thread. Please look at my earlier posts to see what it is. From there you will learn that I would never say a murderer who accepts Jesus is suddenly more qualified for heaven than a man who spent his entire life doing the best he could do to live according to the truth that was in him.

And yet, Thanda, this is exactly what your faith professes. If one accepts Christ as their Lord and Savior and does this in a serious manner, from the heart, they are saved and washed clean of all sin. Hence this hitman gets into heaven. And that is what I have serious issues with. The very worst thing I have ever done was shop life some perfume when I was 12. And I got caught and my dad was pretty upset with me as was the owner of the store. If I am sent to hell for this and that man gets to heaven, this, IMO, makes that faith seem capricious at best.