Non-believer go to hell, who's fault?

[outhouse]

I like the idea of the free gift of God is eternal life, got my boarding pass. Get yours!

I don't let fear based rhetoric lead my life.

 

[Thanda]

IMO, spiritual truth is different for each of us. For some, it means there is no God, for others, there is one. Furthermore, how one approaches faith is different based on how we understand the concept of God. If it were similar in all cases, there would be universal and worldwide acceptance of one faith and one alone. Yet, there is not. I am not speaking of truth as is right V wrong. Or truth V a lie. This kind of truth is vastly different for each of us and is something we must find on our own.

I see what you mean. As I explained to another poster I believe in the end we can only be held accountable for the things we did and could reasonably be have known to be truth. And ultimately it isn't really all that important (in my opinion) if in this life we ever really find the "true" religion. What will matter at judgement day will be how eager we were to find and live by the truth that was available to us. Our willingness to live the truth we had available to us on earth (no matter how great or small) will indicate our willingness to follow the truth that will be revealed on the other side.

So in the end it does not matter whether you believe in Allah, Jehovah, Christ or Buddha. What matters is how well you adhere to those principles you recognize as being truth.

 

[Thanda]

This presumes that there is a heaven, which of course, no one can prove. What is it you think we need 'saving' from? Could it not be that we choose our path and our life's lessons to learn from and ultimately become enlightened?

Becoming enlightened, being saved, achieving exaltation (and I'm sure many other religions have different words for such) is all much the same in the end. It is about becoming one with God by letting go of the attitudes that promotes pain and suffering. Hell is pain and suffering. Those who choose to let go of their bad attitudes will avoid hell. Those who don't will find themselves there.

 

[Thanda]

Because having to choose between heaven or hell IS coercion. Either we live by the rules of the Bible or we get to spend eternity in hell. I don;t see that as the actions of a loving God who 'wants us to like him', a statement I find very hard to even understand, but rather the actions of a capricious child.

I suppose one of the reasons you have chosen your particular faith is because there is no hell. But even within your religion, from what I understand, there are only two options available: either you get with the program and become enlightened or you will spend eternity in a involuntary (coerced) cycle of birth and death. This doesn't sound all that much better than hell if you ask me.

But suppose you argue: "But those who are in a cycle of rebirth are choosing to be reborn". And my answer would be: what happens to those who choose not to be reborn who are not yet enlightened? From the article written by the Dalai Lama that you linked me to it was quite clear that there was no third option.

 

[Thanda]

Why not?

Because it is against God's principles to do so.

 

[Thanda]

If God created a system where living a moral live would lead to admittance into the heavens, regardless of religious affiliation or belief, I'd have no problem with that at all

That is exactly the system God has created. Jesus said: "For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more." God will only ask as much of us as what he gave us. We are only expected to live lives as virtuous as our knowledge of truth allows.

As for babies. I'm am no convinced by there doctrine held by many christian churches (even my own to be honest) that they will automatically go to heaven just because they happened to die young any more than would be convinced that they could go to hell just for dying young.

 

[Thanda]

We can go lots of different places. Universe is a big place. Also, God was rather specific in the OT and DIDN'T want us to be like Him. It's Jesus who said it wasn't true.

Leviticus 11:

44 For I am the Lord your God: ye shall therefore sanctify yourselves, and ye shall be holy; for I am holy: neither shall ye defile yourselves with any manner of creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

45 For I am the Lord that bringeth you up out of the land of Egypt, to be your God: ye shall therefore be holy, for I am holy.​

Also, please tell me of these different places we can go to.

 

[Thanda]

With the situation at hand involving Jesus/God, there is no victim as heaven, presumably, would be better than any alternative regardless of the person's intent

The guy who wrote the following disagrees:

3 Then will ye longer deny the Christ, or can ye behold the Lamb of God? Do ye suppose that ye shall dwell with him under a consciousness of your guilt? Do ye suppose that ye could be happy to dwell with that holy Being, when your souls are racked with a consciousness of guilt that ye have ever abused his laws?

4 Behold, I say unto you that ye would be more miserable to dwell with a holy and just God, under a consciousness of your filthiness before him, than ye would to dwell with the damned souls in hell.

5 For behold, when ye shall be brought to see yournakedness before God, and also the glory of God, and theholiness of Jesus Christ, it will kindle a flame of unquenchable fire upon you. (Mormon 9)​

whereas raping a woman doesn't help that woman out at all

Some people in my country may not agree with you. Some think raping a woman will make her heterosexual. Some think it will teach her manners. Are they justified?

 

[Thanda]

Withholding heaven unless one worships is just about the most clear example of diress or force I've ever seen. Either worship or be doomed.

Do you believe entitlement is a good quality to have?

 

[Intojoy]

I don't let fear based rhetoric lead my life.

No you don't. But as you agree, death is universal.

 

[JoStories]

"It intimates that God would consign millions of people to hell simply for choosing to follow a different form of God or the hubris to not follow one at all. "

^^^ no it does not, it clearly says everyone is born dead to God, already condemned and heading to hell. You don't have to like this or believe it for that matter but it can be proven that the biblical doctrine of sin renders all under Adams condemned fallen state by imputation.

The message of salvation in Messiah is that by imputation the righteousness of Messiah is credited to the believer in Yeshua and the guilt of sin is removed, the ledger wiped free of debt.

Again, may be an unpopular idea but it is what sets the faith of Messiah Yeshua (Jesus Christ) apart from every other belief system.

I like the idea of the free gift of God is eternal life, got my boarding pass. Get yours!

Thank you but no. I believe in God but I don't believe in a book written by men to cow people into being nothing more than automans, IMO. I am Buddhist. I have spent my entire life studying all the faiths on this planet, including yours. And IMO, God has the capacity to be able to reveal God's self to all faiths. This exclusivity that the Christian faith espouses is nothing more than that, exclusivity and it makes no sense whatsoever. I would suggest you study the Vedas for one, as the parallels to your faith are unmistakable. Or perhaps the Upanishads. But even in reading those, one must keep in mind that the books were written by men. Perhaps inspired, perhaps not. But tor me, the journey to God is a very personal one and not one that can be explained by a book.

 

[JoStories]

Heaven, by definition, is the place where God is.
Everyone and everything in heaven exists to worship God.
To compel a being into heaven, to require he/she/it to worship God against their desire IS spiritual rape .. it is the removal of your free will (God's greatest gift to you).
So God created a place where God is not ... called Hell.
Whatever it is like and whether those there suffer, sleep, live in an Elysian Field ... whatever ... they do it without God.
They are not compelled to worship against their free will.

Regarding what I highlighted, how does anyone know, by definition, where is God at all? Can you prove this statement? Of course not. It is nothing more than your belief, so claiming that God 'lives' there is just belief and cannot be substantiated.

 

[JoStories]

That doesn't mean that we have to. Honestly, I think most Christians haven't taken the time to look for themselves at how "shady" Paul's claims were.

Exactly. Nor do they note how much of what he wrote is contrary to what Jesus taught. Paul's views are very much against the love and caring that Christ brought to the table. Relying on Paul simply makes that believer into a Paulian which has not semblance of relatedness to Christ whatsoever.

 

[JoStories]

I see what you mean. As I explained to another poster I believe in the end we can only be held accountable for the things we did and could reasonably be have known to be truth. And ultimately it isn't really all that important (in my opinion) if in this life we ever really find the "true" religion. What will matter at judgement day will be how eager we were to find and live by the truth that was available to us. Our willingness to live the truth we had available to us on earth (no matter how great or small) will indicate our willingness to follow the truth that will be revealed on the other side.

So in the end it does not matter whether you believe in Allah, Jehovah, Christ or Buddha. What matters is how well you adhere to those principles you recognize as being truth.

I agree to a point. In Buddhism, suffering is a part of the path, a part of the journey to enlightenment. One cannot understand good if one does not understand bad. The problem with the monotheistic faiths is the duality of the religion. Right V wrong, Bad V Good. In most eastern faiths, life is a balance. A Yin and Yang view of how we progress on our paths. And Dukkha, or suffering, is absolutely essential to move further along on that path. We must embrace our suffering to understand it. In this life, I am experiencing severe loss and pain. Maybe in the next, it will be another thing. That is what we choose in the Bardo state. A place sort of like a way station between one life and the next. We do not need to be held accountable for wrong choices as much as we need to learn why we made those choices and how they affected us or those around us.

 

[JoStories]

Becoming enlightened, being saved, achieving exaltation (and I'm sure many other religions have different words for such) is all much the same in the end. It is about becoming one with God by letting go of the attitudes that promotes pain and suffering. Hell is pain and suffering. Those who choose to let go of their bad attitudes will avoid hell. Those who don't will find themselves there.

But here again, one cannot 'let go' of pain or suffering. These are the lessons we have chosen to learn from. There is no hell other than that which we create for ourselves. In each life, we learn more and ultimately, the goal is enlightenment to become one with the concept of God, IMO. There is no hell in my view. Only forward movement along the path to enlightenment.

 

[JoStories]

I suppose one of the reasons you have chosen your particular faith is because there is no hell. But even within your religion, from what I understand, there are only two options available: either you get with the program and become enlightened or you will spend eternity in a involuntary (coerced) cycle of birth and death. This doesn't sound all that much better than hell if you ask me.

But suppose you argue: "But those who are in a cycle of rebirth are choosing to be reborn". And my answer would be: what happens to those who choose not to be reborn who are not yet enlightened? From the article written by the Dalai Lama that you linked me to it was quite clear that there was no third option.

I would ask why one would not choose to be reborn and find the truth along our journey. I suppose one could choose to remain in the Bardo state, although I cannot imagine why one would do so. I would rather continue to learn and evolve in order to achieve that enlightenment that is the ultimate goal.

 

[Joshua Verum]

The Bible’s answer
Some Bible translations use the word “hell” for the Hebrew word “Sheol” and the matching Greek word “Hades,” both of which refer to the common grave of mankind. (Psalm 16:10; Acts 2:27) Many people believe in a fiery hell, as shown in the religious artwork accompanying this article. However, the Bible teaches otherwise.

1. Those in hell are unconscious and so cannot feel pain. “There is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in Sheol.”—Ecclesiastes 9:10.
   
   
2. Good people go to hell. The faithful men Jacob and Job expected to go there.—Genesis 37:35; Job 14:13.
   
   
3. Death, not torment in a fiery hell, is the penalty for sin. “He who has died has been acquitted from his sin.”—Romans 6:7.
   
   
4. Eternal torment would violate God’s justice. (Deuteronomy 32:4) When the first man, Adam, sinned, God told him that his punishment would simply be to pass out of existence: “Dust you are and to dust you will return.” (Genesis 3:19) God would have been lying if he were actually sending Adam to a fiery hell.
   
   
5. God does not even contemplate eternal torment. The idea that he would punish people in hellfire is contrary to the Bible’s teaching that “God is love.”—1 John 4:8; Jeremiah 7:31.
   

https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/questions/

 

[Useless2015]

People back then were a lot more gullible when it came to claims of this kind back then. Claims of visions, miracles, and such were much more readily accepted without evidence, and mental disorders / hallucinations were not understood nearly as well as they are today.

I didn't mention a time period because i am talking about modern times. Probably millions of preachers who know the Bible from cover to cover. How come they believe in Paul? Are you suggesting they know less about the Bible than you?

 

[leibowde84]

Because it is against God's principles to do so.

So, you believe that God is limited by his own principles? Basically, God is not able to go against his own wishes? Honestly, I feel like your last comment was a bit of a cop-out. It sounds as if you are saying "that's just the way God is", which ends any chance we have at reasonable discourse.

 

[Useless2015]

The Bible’s answer
Some Bible translations use the word “hell” for the Hebrew word “Sheol” and the matching Greek word “Hades,” both of which refer to the common grave of mankind. (Psalm 16:10; Acts 2:27) Many people believe in a fiery hell, as shown in the religious artwork accompanying this article. However, the Bible teaches otherwise.

1. Those in hell are unconscious and so cannot feel pain. “There is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in Sheol.”—Ecclesiastes 9:10.
   
   
2. Good people go to hell. The faithful men Jacob and Job expected to go there.—Genesis 37:35; Job 14:13.
   
   
3. Death, not torment in a fiery hell, is the penalty for sin. “He who has died has been acquitted from his sin.”—Romans 6:7.
   
   
4. Eternal torment would violate God’s justice. (Deuteronomy 32:4) When the first man, Adam, sinned, God told him that his punishment would simply be to pass out of existence: “Dust you are and to dust you will return.” (Genesis 3:19) God would have been lying if he were actually sending Adam to a fiery hell.
   
   
5. God does not even contemplate eternal torment. The idea that he would punish people in hellfire is contrary to the Bible’s teaching that “God is love.”—1 John 4:8; Jeremiah 7:31.

https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/questions/

1- Than why send them to hell?
2- That doesn't mean much.
3- How can you die twice? Does God resurrect people just to kill them again?
4- One of the reasons why i think Christians do not actually believe in God. Setting God to a certain standard their little human brains made up is something alot of Christians do.
5- Jesus said that he would rather chop his arm off than go to hell.