Non-believer go to hell, who's fault?

[leibowde84]

True .. a few people might have never heard of God, or have little knowledge .. but most atheists, as well as I am aware, know but wish to deny and not accept the guidance revealed to the prophets.

Uhhh ... no. Most, if not all, Atheists do not believe that God exists due to an overwhelming lack of evidence, and, thus, believe prophets to be frauds and not worth listening to. There is no denial, but rather atheists are merely unconvinced that God exists at all. Were you really claiming that atheists believe God exists, but just choose to deny following his orders? Because, that is pretty far-fetched. Never heard that before.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Uhhh ... no. Most, if not all, Atheists do not believe that God exists due to an overwhelming lack of evidence..

Yes .. that's what they say .. but how do you know what is in their subconconcious? They might not even know themselves..
There are reasons for everything .. and our stated intentions are often not true or accurate

 

[leibowde84]

Yes .. that's what they say .. but how do you know what is in their subconconcious? They might not even know themselves..
There are reasons for everything .. and our stated intentions are often not true or accurate

You have no valid reasoning to doubt their reasoning for lacking a belief in God. Until you do, you should give them the benefit of the doubt. Just because you are convinced doesn't mean they are.

 

[Unification]

Yes, that seems to be abundantly clear. They mention "bodies" being thrown into hell. Losing limbs rather than your whole body going to hell. Fire in hell. The list goes on. I'm not saying they are right, as I don't believe that they were. But, it seems clear that was their understanding at the time.

• Gehennah, γέεννα, (12)
  • Matt. 5:22, "But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire."
  • Matt. 5:29, "If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell."
  • Matt. 5:30, "And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into hell."
  • Matt. 10:28, "And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell."
  • Matt. 18:9, "And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into the hell of fire."
  • Matt. 23:15, "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel across sea and land to make a single proselyte, and when he becomes a proselyte, you make him twice as much a child of hell as yourselves."
  • Matt. 23:33, "You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell?"
  • Mark 9:43, "And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire."
  • Mark 9:45, "And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame than with two feet to be thrown into hell."
  • Mark 9:47, "And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell."
  • Luke 12:5, "But I will warn you whom to fear: fear him who, after he has killed, has authority to cast into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him!"
  • James 3:6, "And the tongue is a fire, a world of unrighteousness. The tongue is set among our members, staining the whole body, setting on fire the entire course of life, and set on fire by hell."
• Hades, αδης (11)
  • Matt. 11:23, "And you, Capernaum, will you be exalted to heaven? You will be brought down to Hades. For if the mighty works done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day."
  • Matt. 16:18, "And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it."
  • Luke 10:15, "And you, Capernaum, will you be exalted to heaven? You shall be brought down to Hades."
  • Luke 16:23, "and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side."
  • Acts 2:27, "For you will not abandon my soul to Hades, or let your Holy One see corruption."
  • Acts 2:31, "he foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption."
  • 1 Cor. 15:55, "O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?”
  • Rev. 1:18, "and the living one. I died, and behold I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades."
  • Rev. 6:8, "And I looked, and behold, a pale horse! And its rider’s name was Death, and Hades followed him. And they were given authority over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword and with famine and with pestilence and by wild beasts of the earth."
  • Rev. 20:13, "And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hadesgave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done."
  • Rev. 20:14, "Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire."
• Tartaros, ταρταρός (1)
  • 2 Pet. 2:4, "For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment."

And I can easily say that all of the verses are referring to an inner state of suffering and burning of the mind and body.

Also that death is not referring to literal physical death.

If someone does something contrary to the laws of love and goodness, they will be cast into states of suffering.

Hell, fire, burning... all suffering.

 

[viole]

Yes, I believe in goodness and am faithful to goodness. Living that way of life keeps me from suffering and burning.

Your imagination is running wild, I never used the word "God" or all of your conceptions and perceptions of what "God" is.

So, with "believers" you mean "believers in goodness" and not necessarily "believers in God".

Correct?

Ciao

- viole

 

[leibowde84]

And I can easily say that all of the verses are referring to an inner state of suffering and burning of the mind and body.

Also that death is not referring to literal physical death.

If someone does something contrary to the laws of love and goodness, they will be cast into states of suffering.

Hell, fire, burning... all suffering.

Right, that is your opinion. But, what passages from biblical authors supports this?

 

[Unification]

So, with "believers" you mean "believers in goodness" and not necessarily "believers in God".

Correct?

Ciao

- viole

Yes.

There is the same goodness latently present within all human beings.

 

[leibowde84]

Yes.

There is the same goodness latently present within all human beings.

So, those who believe in "goodness" but don't believe in the existence of God or the divinity of Jesus can still achieve salvation in heaven?

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

He drags no one there unwillingly. There is heaven and hell. If you don't want to live the laws of heaven then where else can you go?

We are people who God wants to make like him. God is not coerced by anyone to be who He is - So why should he coerce us?

We can go lots of different places. Universe is a big place. Also, God was rather specific in the OT and DIDN'T want us to be like Him. It's Jesus who said it wasn't true.

That is not the point. It's in the Bible wether 'Pelagians' believe it or not.

Yes, but we (I'm not a Pelagian) are under no obligation to trust Paul just because he told us to.

Sorry, I thought that the comparison was obvious.
Just because you can do something (have the power to do it), does not make that the right thing to do.

Heaven, by definition, is the place where God is.

Great! He's omnipresent, so everywhere is Heaven, even Hell.

Well .. they certainly could no longer deny that He exists .. but how would it change things? They would still not like His authority, no?

Is there reason not to? If God is good He should be able to withstand a 360 review, no? If He is unwilling to address valid concerns, that implies He knows He is in the wrong and is too selfish to make things right.

 

[leibowde84]

Yes, but we (I'm not a Pelagian) are under no obligation to trust Paul just because he told us to.

Truer words were never spoken. Bravo!!

 

[viole]

Yes.

There is the same goodness latently present within all human beings.

So, your original sentence reduces to: unbelievers (in goodness) are unfaithful to goodness.

Did I get that right?

Ciao

- viole

 

[Unification]

Right, that is your opinion. But, what passages from biblical authors supports this?

Try not to focus on literal and outward interpretations, you're thinking too much. I know that your conscience is opposed to much of that doctrine anyway. All of the passages you listed for one... you either will see them outwardly or inwardly.

You are the author of your own suffering or peace. Not biblical authors. If you do something contrary to love and goodness, you will cause suffering. You will be burned for that. Any human being will. It's in the present.

 

[leibowde84]

Try not to focus on literal and outward interpretations, you're thinking too much. I know that your conscience is opposed to much of that doctrine anyway. All of the passages you listed for one... you either will see them outwardly or inwardly.

You are the author of your own suffering or peace. Not biblical authors. If you do something contrary to love and goodness, you will cause suffering. You will be burned for that. Any human being will. It's in the present.

Well, if you agree that belief in God and/or Jesus is not necessary for salvation or entrance into heaven, I'm with you all the way. And, I completely agree with what you wrote here.

 

[Unification]

So, your original sentence reduces to: unbelievers (in goodness) are unfaithful to goodness.

Did I get that right?

Ciao

- viole

Yes. There is good "latently" present within all human beings. Unfaithful to that good within them will cause suffering.

 

[leibowde84]

Yes. There is good "latently" present within all human beings. Unfaithful to that good within them will cause suffering.

Hmmm ... I like your style.

 

[Useless2015]

Yes, but we (I'm not a Pelagian) are under no obligation to trust Paul just because he told us to.

Well regardless. The overwhelming majority of Christians trust and believe in Paul's words.

 

[leibowde84]

Well regardless. The overwhelming majority of Christians trust and believe in Paul's words.

That doesn't mean that we have to. Honestly, I think most Christians haven't taken the time to look for themselves at how "shady" Paul's claims were.

 

[Useless2015]

That doesn't mean that we have to. Honestly, I think most Christians haven't taken the time to look for themselves at how "shady" Paul's claims were.

How do you explain high leaders in Christianity(experts on the Bible) trusting Paul?

 

[leibowde84]

How do you explain high leaders in Christianity(experts on the Bible) trusting Paul?

People back then were a lot more gullible when it came to claims of this kind back then. Claims of visions, miracles, and such were much more readily accepted without evidence, and mental disorders / hallucinations were not understood nearly as well as they are today.

 

[Intojoy]

With all due respect, you do understand how this paints your version of God into some kind of a monster, non? It intimates that God would consign millions of people to hell simply for choosing to follow a different form of God or the hubris to not follow one at all. Do you not think God is powerful enough to be able to make God's presence known to all types of faiths? Why could God's face not be that of Krishna or Surya or any of the other God's and faiths on this planet? IMO, your view limits God and I don't believe we, as a species, have the ability to limit such a being.

"It intimates that God would consign millions of people to hell simply for choosing to follow a different form of God or the hubris to not follow one at all. "

^^^ no it does not, it clearly says everyone is born dead to God, already condemned and heading to hell. You don't have to like this or believe it for that matter but it can be proven that the biblical doctrine of sin renders all under Adams condemned fallen state by imputation.

The message of salvation in Messiah is that by imputation the righteousness of Messiah is credited to the believer in Yeshua and the guilt of sin is removed, the ledger wiped free of debt.

Again, may be an unpopular idea but it is what sets the faith of Messiah Yeshua (Jesus Christ) apart from every other belief system.

I like the idea of the free gift of God is eternal life, got my boarding pass. Get yours!