Non-believer go to hell, who's fault?

[leibowde84]

You seem to be asking if God could bribe everyone into worshiping him. In Job, Satan accuses God of doing just that - buying Job's loyalty. So I guess the answer is: maybe.
[I would have said yes before coming to RF. Now I have met people that I am not so sure ANYTHING would change their minds.]


I see God as requiring absolutely NOTHING from anyone. It is one of the strengths of the Trinitarian view ... God can even love without any outside help and not be narcissistic. It is innate to being an Omniscient, Omnipotent, Omnipresent Creator that God is worthy of worship (reverence to God for his innate character) and praise (gratitude for what God has done) ... hence the voluntary nature of entrance into Heaven.

Withholding heaven unless one worships is just about the most clear example of diress or force I've ever seen. Either worship or be doomed.

 

[viole]

An "unbeliever" is one who is "unfaithful" to goodness.
.

If believing in God is what keeps you from turning into the equivalent of Hannibal the cannibal, then keep believing.

By all means.

Ciao

- viole

 

[Unification]

Can you back this claim up? And provide a reliable source that confirms your definition? Because most atheists even fit into your definition of a believer, as they believe in goodness.

This doesn't need to be defined or conceptualized or backed up. It is experienced by all human beings, many without awareness of things that cause themselves suffering and many with awareness and many growing in awareness.

"Atheist" and "theist" are irrelevant. All are human beings and this applies to anyone. The title one gives to someone or themselves is irrelevant.

Yes, many "atheists" submit to and are faithful to goodness within them. Many "atheists" are more "Christ-like" than outward "Christians." Many "Christians" are more "Christ-like" than "atheists." The titles and labels are irrelevant. It's ones inner character and nature that are relevant.

The words "believer" and "unbeliever" are heavily misconstrued and just more poor labels on human beings.

 

[Unification]

If believing in God is what keeps you from turning into the equivalent of Hannibal the cannibal, then keep believing.

By all means.

Ciao

- viole

Yes, I believe in goodness and am faithful to goodness. Living that way of life keeps me from suffering and burning.

Your imagination is running wild, I never used the word "God" or all of your conceptions and perceptions of what "God" is.

 

[atpollard]

Withholding heaven unless one worships is just about the most clear example of diress or force I've ever seen. Either worship or be doomed.

Your complaint is with the definition of Hell.
The purpose of Heaven is to be with God ... how can you really claim it is unfair because you want to go to Heaven, but you want God to leave so you don't have to acknowledge him.
If God leaves, then it ain't Heaven.

I suggest you consider Judaism. All of the God with none of the Hell. [obviously intended as humor.]

 

[leibowde84]

Your complaint is with the definition of Hell.
The purpose of Heaven is to be with God ... how can you really claim it is unfair because you want to go to Heaven, but you want God to leave so you don't have to acknowledge him.
If God leaves, then it ain't Heaven.

I suggest you consider Judaism. All of the God with none of the Hell. [obviously intended as humor.]

You are flip-flopping. Acknowledging God, which every single person would do once faced with the existence of God, is vastly different than worshiping God.

 

[leibowde84]

This doesn't need to be defined or conceptualized or backed up. It is experienced by all human beings, many without awareness of things that cause themselves suffering and many with awareness and many growing in awareness.

"Atheist" and "theist" are irrelevant. All are human beings and this applies to anyone. The title one gives to someone or themselves is irrelevant.

Yes, many "atheists" submit to and are faithful to goodness within them. Many "atheists" are more "Christ-like" than outward "Christians." Many "Christians" are more "Christ-like" than "atheists." The titles and labels are irrelevant. It's ones inner character and nature that are relevant.

The words "believer" and "unbeliever" are heavily misconstrued and just more poor labels on human beings.

So, you can't back up your definition of "non-believer"? But, that is the basis of your entire argument. I am a Christian and a person, and I do not agree with your definition. There is no indication that "believer" means anything other than "believer in God" and "believer in scripture/word of God".

 

[Unification]

So, you can't back up your definition of "non-believer"? But, that is the basis of your entire argument. I am a Christian and a person, and I do not agree with your definition. There is no indication that "believer" means anything other than "believer in God" and "believer in scripture/word of God".

I suppose if you insist on it that way... the word used for "unbeliever" means "unfaithful."

Unfaithful to what? God? What is "God?"

I wouldn't expect you to, perhaps you enjoy the fruitless "non-believer" vs. "believer" ... "atheist" vs "theist".... "Us" vs. "them" models of dividing and segregating human beings.

 

[Unification]

So, you can't back up your definition of "non-believer"? But, that is the basis of your entire argument. I am a Christian and a person, and I do not agree with your definition. There is no indication that "believer" means anything other than "believer in God" and "believer in scripture/word of God".

What do you believe in?

 

[leibowde84]

I suppose if you insist on it that way... the word used for "unbeliever" means "unfaithful."

Unfaithful to what? God? What is "God?"

I wouldn't expect you to, perhaps you enjoy the fruitless "non-believer" vs. "believer" ... "atheist" vs "theist".... "Us" vs. "them" models of dividing and segregating human beings.

All I'm asking for is that you back up your CLAIM. As it stands now, it is merely your opinion which seems to contradict common consensus on the matter. And, your pathetic attempt to attack my personal philosophy is absurd, btw. tisk tisk.

 

[leibowde84]

What do you believe in?

I just stated what I believe about the word, or at least what I believe the Biblical authors to have meant. Whether they were right is another story.

 

[Unification]

All I'm asking for is that you back up your CLAIM. As it stands now, it is merely your opinion which seems to contradict common consensus on the matter. And, your pathetic attempt to attack my personal philosophy is absurd, btw. tisk tisk.

Not a pathetic attempt, you said that one is either a believer in an exoteric "God" and scriptures or they are an unbeliever.

I don't live my life off "common consensus" or what everyone else/the crowd is conforming to. I have a free mind of my own.

Common sense suggests every human being who does something stupid will suffer for it in some way or another. How does applying labels to someone exclude them from this?

A believer or unbeliever in what? God? What is God?

 

[Unification]

I just stated what I believe about the word, or at least what I believe the Biblical authors to have meant. Whether they were right is another story.

You believe in the "common consensus or crowd."

It is heavily conditioned that hell is a place. The scriptures never even state hell is a place and state that the hell beneath can be escaped from. It's common sense that hell is suffering now and objectively so with any human being regardless of which labels are applied to someone.

 

[muhammad_isa]

..Acknowledging God, which every single person would do once faced with the existence of God..

Well .. they certainly could no longer deny that He exists .. but how would it change things? They would still not like His authority, no?

 

[leibowde84]

Not a pathetic attempt, you said that one is either a believer in an exoteric "God" and scriptures or they are an unbeliever.

Nope, I said that is what the Biblical authors were referring to.

Common sense suggests every human being who does something stupid will suffer for it in some way or another. How does applying labels to someone exclude them from this?

I'm not sure what you are asking here. What is the relevance?

I don't live my life off "common consensus" or what everyone else/the crowd is conforming to. I have a free mind of my own.

That's why I'm asking for your reasoning. You merely stated your opinion as if it is fact without explaining why it is the case that it is what the BIBLICAL AUTHORS thought. I'm not questioning your understanding of your faith, I'm questioning your interpretation of what the Biblical authors meant.

 

[leibowde84]

You believe in the "common consensus or crowd."

It is heavily conditioned that hell is a place. The scriptures never even state hell is a place and state that the hell beneath can be escaped from. It's common sense that hell is suffering now and objectively so with any human being regardless of which labels are applied to someone.

Again, we aren't discussing my belief. We are discussing what the beliefs of the Biblical Authors were.

 

[leibowde84]

Well .. they certainly could no longer deny that He exists .. but how would it change things? They would still not like His authority, no?

I don't think either of us are in a position to make that call. Who knows what they would think at that point. Can't count anything out ... that's for sure.

 

[Unification]

Again, we aren't discussing my belief. We are discussing what the beliefs of the Biblical Authors were.

Do you believe that the "biblical authors" meant a literal place of eternal torment after physical death?

 

[leibowde84]

Do you believe that the "biblical authors" meant a literal place of eternal torment after physical death?

Yes, that seems to be abundantly clear. They mention "bodies" being thrown into hell. Losing limbs rather than your whole body going to hell. Fire in hell. The list goes on. I'm not saying they are right, as I don't believe that they were. But, it seems clear that was their understanding at the time.

• Gehennah, γέεννα, (12)
  • Matt. 5:22, "But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire."
  • Matt. 5:29, "If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell."
  • Matt. 5:30, "And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into hell."
  • Matt. 10:28, "And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell."
  • Matt. 18:9, "And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into the hell of fire."
  • Matt. 23:15, "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel across sea and land to make a single proselyte, and when he becomes a proselyte, you make him twice as much a child of hell as yourselves."
  • Matt. 23:33, "You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell?"
  • Mark 9:43, "And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire."
  • Mark 9:45, "And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame than with two feet to be thrown into hell."
  • Mark 9:47, "And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell."
  • Luke 12:5, "But I will warn you whom to fear: fear him who, after he has killed, has authority to cast into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him!"
  • James 3:6, "And the tongue is a fire, a world of unrighteousness. The tongue is set among our members, staining the whole body, setting on fire the entire course of life, and set on fire by hell."
• Hades, αδης (11)
  • Matt. 11:23, "And you, Capernaum, will you be exalted to heaven? You will be brought down to Hades. For if the mighty works done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day."
  • Matt. 16:18, "And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it."
  • Luke 10:15, "And you, Capernaum, will you be exalted to heaven? You shall be brought down to Hades."
  • Luke 16:23, "and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side."
  • Acts 2:27, "For you will not abandon my soul to Hades, or let your Holy One see corruption."
  • Acts 2:31, "he foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption."
  • 1 Cor. 15:55, "O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?”
  • Rev. 1:18, "and the living one. I died, and behold I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades."
  • Rev. 6:8, "And I looked, and behold, a pale horse! And its rider’s name was Death, and Hades followed him. And they were given authority over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword and with famine and with pestilence and by wild beasts of the earth."
  • Rev. 20:13, "And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hadesgave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done."
  • Rev. 20:14, "Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire."
• Tartaros, ταρταρός (1)
  • 2 Pet. 2:4, "For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment."

 

[muhammad_isa]

..Who knows what they would think at that point. Can't count anything out ... that's for sure.

True .. a few people might have never heard of God, or have little knowledge .. but most atheists, as well as I am aware, know but wish to deny and not accept the guidance revealed to the prophets.