Non-believer go to hell, who's fault?

[DLR]

And I don;t believe your missionaries have any right to be there at all. I lived in Zimbabye for a year and saw that they have their own faiths. What makes you think yours is better? Do you have an exclusive right to who is wrong and who is right about God? Not that I am aware of.

The only right in question is freedom of religion. This is a key tenet of the Baptist belief. I don't think we are forcing anyone to convert. Actually, it isn't possible to force anyone to convert to Christianity by my definition. Providing the opportunity is our goal. If we are blocking another religion from providing the very same opportunity I am not aware of it.

 

[atpollard]

But let's focus on the thread topic: if someone honestly searches for the truth and is not convinced that a god exists, what is the crime that he or she has committed? We can't choose what we find convincing; ideas and worldviews either make sense to us or they don't. I can't choose to believe that Jesus was crucified to save me from my supposed sins, for example, and I assume that to be the case with you as well, seeing as how you're not a Christian. Are we both criminals for not being convinced of Christianity despite doing our best to search for the truth?

"Are we both criminals for not being convinced of Christianity despite doing our best to search for the truth?"
Actually, no.
You are a criminal because you have violated God's moral law.
The Jewish believers here have done an excellent job of explaining how Judaism views God's 'judgement' of non-Jews ... so start with that if you are inclined towards a knee-jerk rejection of all things labeled Christian.
Our actions in doing evil are our fault.

If 'someone honestly searches for the truth and is not convinced that a god exists', then they are unlikely to pursue the pardon that God offers on God's terms.
However, that does not alter the basic fact that any lies that you or I may have told are our lies, and we deserve the blame for them. God did not force us to violate any of his moral laws.

[as an aside, for people who don't generally believe in the 'christian god' (based on claims made by posters) this place sure dedicates a lot of topics to the subject of 'Hell'.
The goal of Christianity is to find God, not to stay out of hell.]
Thank you for your time.
YMMV

 

[Debater Slayer]

Actually, no.
You are a criminal because you have violated God's moral law.
The Jewish believers here have done an excellent job of explaining how Judaism views God's 'judgement' of non-Jews ... so start with that if you are inclined towards a knee-jerk rejection of all things labeled Christian.
Our actions in doing evil are our fault.

If 'someone honestly searches for the truth and is not convinced that a god exists', then they are unlikely to pursue the pardon that God offers on God's terms.
However, that does not alter the basic fact that any lies that you or I may have told are our lies, and we deserve the blame for them. God did not force us to violate any of his moral laws.

[as an aside, for people who don't generally believe in the 'christian god' (based on claims made by posters) this place sure dedicates a lot of topics to the subject of 'Hell'. The goal of Christianity is to find God, not to stay out of hell.]
Thank you for your time.
YMMV

Hi, atpollard. Happy Holidays (albeit slightly belated).

I'm not sure I completely gather your point; are you saying that someone can go to Hell anyway despite honestly searching for the truth if they don't happen to arrive at the conclusion that a god exists? Wouldn't that be unfair to the person who sincerely tried to find the truth?

 

[wizanda]

If Jesus was what He claimed to be, He would not stay dead long and His "death" would cleanse sins, as a bonus.

Why would you perceive by murdering a divine being, you could get sin cleansed?

That is like saying let's ritually murder babies, as they're innocent, so we can cleanse ourselves of sin.... it doesn't work, it is just stupid and evil.

If He was not, then He was a liar, deserving the punishement

He didn't lie, he stated they were going to murder him, and the book said we turned him into a sin sacrifice, so there are no assumptions.

 

[Thanda]

But what of those missionaries who force by coercion your faith on them and further, force them to reject their own culture? I speak of these things from having seen them first hand. And a dear friend of mine, a Baptist minister, when to Haiti after the earthquake to help and was appalled when one group of alleged 'christians' refused to give out water unless the people mouthed the platitudes to your faith. I find that reprehensible, as did he. What makes these missionaries believe that this faith has any more merit or degree of correctness than the religions that they encounter while traveling? Seems, at best, arrogant.

I'm not sure how this is even a question. When God sends people to preach His gospel he expects them to do it in his way. He expects them to have the love of God in their hearts and to spread their love both through their words and deeds. Those who go and coerce people to believe are obviously betraying the trust God placed in them - assuming they were sent by God in the first place.

We will all be judged for our sins - whether those sins were committed in our spare time or while we were supposed to be serving the Lord.

As for your last question - anyone who believes they have something good has a moral responsibility to share it with others.

 

[atpollard]

Hi, atpollard. Happy Holidays (albeit slightly belated).

I'm not sure I completely gather your point; are you saying that someone can go to Hell anyway despite honestly searching for the truth if they don't happen to arrive at the conclusion that a god exists? Wouldn't that be unfair to the person who sincerely tried to find the truth?

Thank you. I have been having fun with my family and barely surviving replacing our tile floors with wood-tone vinyl planks. Instead of snow, everything is covered with concrete dust.

Have you EVER lied?
If by some strange chance the answer is YES, then welcome to the broad road filled with 'sinners'.
(Just to be clear, I will define a 'sinner' as one who has violated God's PRE-Abraham moral code.)

If there is a hell ( I have no public opinion on the topic and almost no private opinion on the subject of whether or not it really exists, but for this hypothetical discussion let's say that it does) then you and I deserve to go to hell because we broke the law that says "do not lie". Believing in God or not believing in God never enters into it. God has decided (as is his right) that all liars are unwelcome in his house (Heaven), so we can't go to God's house BECAUSE WE LIED.

I don't think that I can restate it clearer than that.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Thank you. I have been having fun with my family and barely surviving replacing our tile floors with wood-tone vinyl planks. Instead of snow, everything is covered with concrete dust.

Have you EVER lied?
If by some strange chance the answer is YES, then welcome to the broad road filled with 'sinners'.
(Just to be clear, I will define a 'sinner' as one who has violated God's PRE-Abraham moral code.)

If there is a hell ( I have no public opinion on the topic and almost no private opinion on the subject of whether or not it really exists, but for this hypothetical discussion let's say that it does) then you and I deserve to go to hell because we broke the law that says "do not lie". Believing in God or not believing in God never enters into it. God has decided (as is his right) that all liars are unwelcome in his house (Heaven), so we can't go to God's house BECAUSE WE LIED.

I don't think that I can restate it clearer than that.

I do think the part about deserving hell needs clarification. Because I don't view a torturous, burny style of hell as something anyone deserves nor what an omnipotent omnibenevolent being would allow.
And neither do most Jews since that's what you were discussing earlier. Jews mostly believe judgement isn't a place, but a period of intense shaming as you go through and feel your errors with God's presence. In Judaism, no soul is destroyed or forever shunned. While some judging may take longer if there's more 'dirt to clean' all souls end up in the same place.

 

[atpollard]

Hi, atpollard. Happy Holidays (albeit slightly belated).

I'm not sure I completely gather your point; are you saying that someone can go to Hell anyway despite honestly searching for the truth if they don't happen to arrive at the conclusion that a god exists? Wouldn't that be unfair to the person who sincerely tried to find the truth?

Actually, I can answer more directly:
No, I do not believe that can happen.
God does not employ some sliding standard of holiness (there is no close enough ... nobody is close enough).
God does not punish doubt or some random fate (like being born where the Gospel had never been preached).

I do not believe that it is possible to seek God, honestly, and not find Him.
I believe that All who seek, will find.

So the only option when you meet God at the gate of heaven is have you surrendered what you know of you to what you know of God?
If you have, then you are seeking him in faith and this will be a happy reunion between friends who have longed to be together.
If you have not, then this will be a final showdown between a creator and a being that has chosen a life of rebellion.
I believe that those rejected from God's presence will leave like they arrived, shaking their fist at God.

However, as I have already beat to death, hell was never God's choice for anyone.
The choice to sin, to resist God, to fight God with our last breath, has always been ours.

 

[atpollard]

I do think the part about deserving hell needs clarification. Because I don't view a torturous, burny style of hell as something anyone deserves nor what an omnipotent omnibenevolent being would allow.
And neither do most Jews since that's what you were discussing earlier. Jews mostly believe judgement isn't a place, but a period of intense shaming as you go through and feel your errors with God's presence. In Judaism, no soul is destroyed or forever shunned. While some judging may take longer if there's more 'dirt to clean' all souls end up in the same place.

While it may cost me my Baptist Secret handshake (or perhaps not), I see scripture being unclear about Eternal punishment in Hell vs simple destruction of the soul. It is a point on which Christians can disagree and remain orthodox (true to Scripture).
I will stand by my claim that this fixation on Hell is far out of proportion to its importance to Christian Theology. The goal is to get into Heaven (be with God), not to avoid being cast into a lake of fire.
Most of the topics about Hell are thinly veiled attacks designed to say something silly like ... "See, God is amoral, so I don't believe in him."
Frankly, it is a straw man. Most of the worst imagery of Hell that is being rejected comes from the highly symbolic VISIONS of Revelation. Try dedicating all this effort to a Dragon eating a woman ... which appears in the same Vision.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Thank you. I have been having fun with my family and barely surviving replacing our tile floors with wood-tone vinyl planks. Instead of snow, everything is covered with concrete dust.

Have you EVER lied?
If by some strange chance the answer is YES, then welcome to the broad road filled with 'sinners'.
(Just to be clear, I will define a 'sinner' as one who has violated God's PRE-Abraham moral code.)

If there is a hell ( I have no public opinion on the topic and almost no private opinion on the subject of whether or not it really exists, but for this hypothetical discussion let's say that it does) then you and I deserve to go to hell because we broke the law that says "do not lie". Believing in God or not believing in God never enters into it. God has decided (as is his right) that all liars are unwelcome in his house (Heaven), so we can't go to God's house BECAUSE WE LIED.

I don't think that I can restate it clearer than that.

Of course I have lied before. Everyone has at one point or another. I think an omniscient god would know that his creations were incapable of being perfect and not lying even once in their whole lives.

It seems to me that you are saying your god can choose an arbitrary reason to send people to Hell for. Furthermore, a lot of what we do that certain religions consider "sin" is inherent in human nature, so it is not something we can control.

Do you think it would be fair if your god sent you to Hell because you followed a religion other than the one he wanted you to follow? Why or why not?

 

[LuisDantas]

While it may cost me my Baptist Secret handshake (or perhaps not), I see scripture being unclear about Eternal punishment in Hell vs simple destruction of the soul. It is a point on which Christians can disagree and remain orthodox (true to Scripture).
I will stand by my claim that this fixation on Hell is far out of proportion to its importance to Christian Theology. The goal is to get into Heaven (be with God), not to avoid being cast into a lake of fire.
Most of the topics about Hell are thinly veiled attacks designed to say something silly like ... "See, God is amoral, so I don't believe in him."
Frankly, it is a straw man. Most of the worst imagery of Hell that is being rejected comes from the highly symbolic VISIONS of Revelation. Try dedicating all this effort to a Dragon eating a woman ... which appears in the same Vision.

I, for one, have been basically threatened with hell by believers, so I think it is fair to say out aloud that such a god is not worth of respect, let alone worship.

I will agree that it is a degenerated view... but many people who swear to be believers present it to me as theirs, all the same.

 

[atpollard]

I, for one, have been basically threatened with hell by believers, so I think it is fair to say out aloud that such a god is not worth of respect, let alone worship.
I will agree that it is a degenerated view... but many people who swear to be believers present it to me as theirs, all the same.

If god is not real, then the believers get to decide what god is like.
If God is real, then you are giving too much credit to the opinions of people.

Hell really isn't the heart of Jesus message.
I would not go so far as to join those who claim that it has no place, the basic Gospel (good news) is that Sin separated us from God and Jesus came to fix it.
Good and Evil, Heaven and Hell, Light and Dark, Life and Death ... these opposed forces are meant to illustrate the binary choice.
Accept Jesus/God or reject Jesus/God.

Everyone wants to dictate terms to God, but the gospel really is offered as a 'take it or leave it' deal.
So, if you don't want it, then leave it.
God allows you to make that choice, too.

I am a Calvinist, so I view your salvation as being a matter between you and God.
I have no need to beat anyone up about anything.
If you ask a question, I'll try my best to answer, but I get no rewards either way.

 

[LuisDantas]

If god is not real, then the believers get to decide what god is like.
If God is real, then you are giving too much credit to the opinions of people.

You realize that there is only so much that can be done in order to tell people not to bother me with their delusions without being rude, right?

 

[atpollard]

You realize that there is only so much that can be done in order to tell people not to bother me with their delusions without being rude, right?

Sorry, I grew up within sight of Manhattan, so you will have to explain to me the problem with being rude.
Sometimes "Frack"-off is the appropriate response.
(It is at least unambiguous).

You could tell them that you want to believe, but you need them to show you the Chapter and Verse where it says that people burn in Hell forever?
I went looking and couldn't find it and I know scripture better than the average Christian.
It looks like you need to use some of the symbolism in Revelation and squint a little to get there.

Hell can be found.
Destruction can be found.
Eternal Torment ... not so clear to me.

It might buy you some time while they look for a verse that isn't there.

 

[LuisDantas]

I would rather tell that such a God is not worth of respect, let alone worship.

And I do, often enough.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

The Tree, because it was so tasty.

 

[Sleeppy]

God has no faults. God however determined that creation has faults, and is malleable. Hell is a method of destruction and reconstruction, here on Earth.

 

[Deathbydefault]

Just lock up the good booze, & keep a watchful eye on your puppies.

Anyway, if there were gods, it would be their fault for sending me to Hell.
Why?
- They're the ones doing the sending. They could choose otherwise, after all.
- I have no choice but to be a disbeliever. There's no way I could believe in some detailed mythology which totally lacks evidence.
If my salvation depends upon believing that Jesus rides a golden unicorn with Muhammad in a chocolate sidecar, then I'm doomed.

Absolutely hilarious.

Nonbelievers is to blame themselves for being in hellfire.

I can personally attest to this as I would choose hell fire over having to put up with and praise an egotist for eternity.
But alas, I deny such an existence as possible so I'll never actually have to make that choice as far as I'm concerned.

God gives two options. Believe or disbelieve. The ones that disbelieve can only blame themselves.

If person A commits a crime is person B responsible? Is that logical?

Well if God were real, and it was actually giving us this backwater dichotomy, my response would likely consist of one finger on each hand being raised.
God can take that as it may.

If person A commits a crime because person B basically brainwashed them into thinking it would get them a one way ticket to paradise in the afterlife, then yes.

 

[columbus]

Most of the topics about Hell are thinly veiled attacks designed to say something silly like ... "See, God is amoral, so I don't believe in him."

I believe I am speaking for a majority when I say, no that isn't really the point.
The point is to point out that the standard teachings are irrational and internally self-contradictory. God is not like that. Therefore the revealed religions are not from or about God.
Having been taught the stuff I am reading in this thread I came to the conclusion that Jesus is a legendary figure. That Christian teaching is fiction. How is that my responsibility?
Tom

 

[columbus]

Everyone wants to dictate terms to God, but the gospel really is offered as a 'take it or leave it' deal.

But if nobody knows what it means, how can anyone take it or leave it?
Tom