Non-believer go to hell, who's fault?

[ADigitalArtist]

While it may cost me my Baptist Secret handshake (or perhaps not), I see scripture being unclear about Eternal punishment in Hell vs simple destruction of the soul. It is a point on which Christians can disagree and remain orthodox (true to Scripture).
I will stand by my claim that this fixation on Hell is far out of proportion to its importance to Christian Theology. The goal is to get into Heaven (be with God), not to avoid being cast into a lake of fire.
Most of the topics about Hell are thinly veiled attacks designed to say something silly like ... "See, God is amoral, so I don't believe in him."
Frankly, it is a straw man. Most of the worst imagery of Hell that is being rejected comes from the highly symbolic VISIONS of Revelation. Try dedicating all this effort to a Dragon eating a woman ... which appears in the same Vision.

I don't see people saying 'I disagree with hell therefore I don't believe in God.' I see people saying 'I don't believe in God and I think the bible presents a narrative which conflicts with the idea of an omnibenevolent (or perfectly just) entity if interpreted in this way.' You say that people disagree with what hell is about, but I'm sure you've run into and will run into Christians who believe hellfire is supported in both non-Revelations NT scripture as well as OT. I'm not sure whether or not hell is scripturally accurate, but I can say that it will most likely forever be outside what I can accept as a moral concept. So even if I did become a theist (which is unlikely) I probably would not join up with any system of belief which included hell as such.

 

[Intojoy]

Title.

Edit: If you think anyone is at fault, explanation is welcome.

Since this is dealing with the biblical hell let me give you my observation.

The bible is clear that everyone is already dead in trespasses and sins. That means that we are born already condemned to hell.

The good news is that God has rendered all men savable if men meet the requirement for salvation.

 

[Politesse]

This seems to be a Christian sectarian dispute. To me in the Bible it clearly says that non-believers will be thrown in a lake of fire forever.

I know of no such passage. To what do you refer?

 

[Estro Felino]

I hate to burst your bubble but being an unbeliever is an actual sin. In the Bible it falls under the 'wickedness'.



8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

as I said before, we Pelagians don't care what Saint Paul said

 

[Estro Felino]

I think the gospels are very clear in stating what is required to be saved. Defining "wicked" requires a bit more subjectivity IMO.

Jesus' parables clearly show that it's works that save a person. Developing a high degree of awareness derives from knowing yourself, knowing your own conscience, and knowing that this conscience is clear.
In the parable of the vineyard and the two sons, it is clear that Jesus speaks of two kinds of people: there is the believer who pretends to obey the Lord, but actually doesn't do the works. There is the unbeliever who is considered disobedient, but actually does the works. So...it is obvious that a selfish Christian won't be saved, whereas a altruistic Atheist certainly will.

 

[JoStories]

The only right in question is freedom of religion. This is a key tenet of the Baptist belief. I don't think we are forcing anyone to convert. Actually, it isn't possible to force anyone to convert to Christianity by my definition. Providing the opportunity is our goal. If we are blocking another religion from providing the very same opportunity I am not aware of it.

I believe that you are not forcing anyone but I would encourage you to visit the Bishop museum in Honolulu and speak with the staff there or simply enjoy their presentations. They speak of the 'howlies', their word for white people, who came and forced them to convert. They were not allowed to wear their clothing, not allowed to dance, nor even speak their own language. Similarly, my people; I am Native American, were forced in similar manners and this can be seen in photos at the art museum in Phoenix, AZ, Very much harm has been done in the name of the Christian faith and it has a whole lot to answer for, IMO.

 

[JoStories]

I'm not sure how this is even a question. When God sends people to preach His gospel he expects them to do it in his way. He expects them to have the love of God in their hearts and to spread their love both through their words and deeds. Those who go and coerce people to believe are obviously betraying the trust God placed in them - assuming they were sent by God in the first place.

We will all be judged for our sins - whether those sins were committed in our spare time or while we were supposed to be serving the Lord.

As for your last question - anyone who believes they have something good has a moral responsibility to share it with others.

First, thanks for enlarging the font Thanda. Very kind of you.
I agree with your first remarks. IF and that a big if, it were done in that manner. Unfortunately, it is often not. As I just said to another poster, many people of your faith were brutal to others. About your last remark, I don't agree. For me, religion and faith are personal. If a person, using me as an example, has a relationship with God, for me that is personal and cannot be shared. I can speak of my faith to you but you cannot know how my beliefs work for me. Nor do I think I should try to convert you to Buddhism. Would you welcome an honest discussion on trying to convert to my faith? Doubtful. Of course, I may be wrong. But IMO, what is 'good' for one is not necessarily good for others. God speaks to people in the quiet of their hearts and that is not something that can be shared.

 

[Thanda]

I agree with your first remarks. IF and that a big if, it were done in that manner. Unfortunately, it is often not. As I just said to another poster, many people of your faith were brutal to others.

I think it goes without saying that humans are evil. This is nothing new. The rapes, murders, adultery, lies, greed, envy etc. that proliferates in the world are ample evidence of this. So in any organisation, no matter how good the intentions behind its formation, so long as there are human beings there will be these evils.
So it is irrelevant how many people who claimed to be Christian in word were actually not in deed. What matters, ultimately, is the message that people receive.

Suppose, for example, the person who introduced you to Buddhism had kidnapped you and forcefully taught you all its precepts. And suppose he released you afterwards. Would you have refused to follow the Buddhist teachings simply because you didn't receive it in the ideal way?
I'm not trying to justify the evils committed by Christian missionaries I am merely trying to show you that truth is truth no matter how evil the conveyor of it may be.

About your last remark, I don't agree. For me, religion and faith are personal. If a person, using me as an example, has a relationship with God, for me that is personal and cannot be shared. I can speak of my faith to you but you cannot know how my beliefs work for me. Nor do I think I should try to convert you to Buddhism. Would you welcome an honest discussion on trying to convert to my faith? Doubtful. Of course, I may be wrong. But IMO, what is 'good' for one is not necessarily good for others. God speaks to people in the quiet of their hearts and that is not something that can be shared.

Your position on this makes very little sense to me. Were you born Buddhist? Didn't you learn about Buddhism because of people who were willing to share their beliefs? Even if you researched it yourself by going to the net, the information you found was written by people who, unlike you, believed the good they had found in their beliefs would be good for others too. The desire to share is one of the most basic and beautiful of human attributes.

And anyone who is offended by someone who is simply sharing something they believe can help others has maturity issues honestly.

As for a discussion about trying to to convert to Buddhism, I would personally welcome a discussion on it. One of the tenets of my faith is that the Spirit of God has gone forth throughout the Earth and has spread as much knowledge and truth as people were able to receive. So I very much believe I would learn many valuable things from Buddhism. Whether I would eventually convert would obviously depend on how I feel about what I learn.

 

[serp777]

Since this is dealing with the biblical hell let me give you my observation.

The bible is clear that everyone is already dead in trespasses and sins. That means that we are born already condemned to hell.

The good news is that God has rendered all men savable if men meet the requirement for salvation.

THE GOOD NEWS YAY!!!! Yeah generally good news comes in the form of a vicarious human sacrifice for sins that i didn't inherently commit. The aztecs thought that too as they slaughtered people for the son God. But You know adam and eve are a myth right? There were never fewer than 1000 humans otherwise all of humanity would have massive incest disease. original sin was an invention by the catholic church to get people to feel obligated to pay the church money and become a member even if they didn't do anything very sinful. If everyone has sin no matter what then its easy to get money and power by manipulating people.

 

[leibowde84]

Title.

Edit: If you think anyone is at fault, explanation is welcome.

If God is petty enough to require belief in himself in order to avoid an eternity of punishment, it's God's fault.

 

[Thanda]

If God is petty enough to require belief in himself in order to avoid an eternity of punishment, it's God's fault.

God requires belief in Truth in order for people to avoid hell.

 

[Smart_Guy]

It's the Muslims' fault. Definitely the Muslims.

 

[Smart_Guy]

Okay, let's get serious. Now, if non-believers are going to hell, it means that God is real and heaven and hell are real, which means believing in them is the right thing to do since they turned out to be real! Having that said, if we choose to not believe, who's fault is it gonna be if we accordingly go to hell? If God, heaven and hell are real, we would be regretting that in the after life if we choose to not believe and go to hell. Wee at least there are hot demon girls there!!! Get it? Hot? In hell?

 

[LuisDantas]

Okay, let's get serious. Now, if non-believers are going to hell, it means that God is real and heaven and hell are real, which means believing in them is important since they turned out to be real!

That does not follow, SG. It is all-out inconsistent a scenario. It would mean that God is both real and unworthy or at least insane.

Having that said, if we choose to not believe, who's fault is it gonna be if we accordingly go to hell? If God, heaven and hell are real, we would be regretting that in the after life if we choose to not believe and go to hell. Wee at least there are hot demon girls there!!! Get it? Hot? In hell?

I don't think too many people even have a choice on the matter. I certainly do not. I just do not.

I could lie about it if my life depended on it, probably. But it would still be a lie, and nothing more than that.

 

[LuisDantas]

God requires belief in Truth in order for people to avoid hell.

And that connects with belief in God somehow?

 

[DLR]

Jesus' parables clearly show that it's works that save a person. Developing a high degree of awareness derives from knowing yourself, knowing your own conscience, and knowing that this conscience is clear.
In the parable of the vineyard and the two sons, it is clear that Jesus speaks of two kinds of people: there is the believer who pretends to obey the Lord, but actually doesn't do the works. There is the unbeliever who is considered disobedient, but actually does the works. So...it is obvious that a selfish Christian won't be saved, whereas a altruistic Atheist certainly will.

I was not aware that an atheist believes in the concept of heaven. I am new here and have much to learn about others beliefs. Baptists believe we are saved by grace. The reborn-repentance-forgiveness thing I am sure you are quite familiar with. Heaven/salvation is a gift from God that can not be earned through works alone. A true Christian is inclined to do works though IMO. The two seem inseparable to me. I hold good works in very high regard personally. Some of the other Christian denominations are more in line with your beliefs than a Baptist is likely to be. .

 

[atpollard]

And that connects with belief in God somehow?

Romans chapter 1 explains it, beginning around verse 18.
(If you are interested.)

 

[leibowde84]

Romans chapter 1 explains it, beginning around verse 18.
(If you are interested.)

Well, we all know the various claims that Paul made about the nature of God/salvation, but what is your reasoning for believing these claims?

 

[Thanda]

And that connects with belief in God somehow?

My point was that @leibowde84's assumption that the non-believer who went to hell went there because he didn't believe in God is false.

 

[DLR]

I believe that you are not forcing anyone but I would encourage you to visit the Bishop museum in Honolulu and speak with the staff there or simply enjoy their presentations. They speak of the 'howlies', their word for white people, who came and forced them to convert. They were not allowed to wear their clothing, not allowed to dance, nor even speak their own language. Similarly, my people; I am Native American, were forced in similar manners and this can be seen in photos at the art museum in Phoenix, AZ, Very much harm has been done in the name of the Christian faith and it has a whole lot to answer for, IMO.

White man in general has a lot to answer for over the centuries IMO. Particularly in regards to how native Americans and blacks were treated. The acceptance of slaves in the Bible is a big problem for me as a Christian. My people were not perfect. My religion is not perfect. I am certainly not perfect. It's a lot to reconcile.