Non-believer go to hell, who's fault?

[viole]

This is actually a bad question as it is somewhat vague. As a result it is causing a bit of confusion.

The way the term belief as it is often used in the Bible and the way most people understand it today is usually very different.

In the Bible belief pretty much amounts to trust. As such it is not merely an academic exercise. If I call you and tell you to come and get $1000 from me: if you believe or trust me you will come and if you don't you will not.
Thus according to the Bible a person who believes is someone who keeps the commandments of God and a non-believer is a person who does not keep God's commandments.

Jesus explained that a person will keep the commandments of God if they love him. So love of God (which includes trusting him) leads a person to keep God's commandments.
So why do some people not love God? Well there are two main reasons. For one it could be that they don't know about him. The other is that they don't believe He can help them.

The first reason is easy to resolve so we can safely assume no one will ever go to hell for not knowing that God exists. The other is much harder to solve as it requires willingness from the non-believer himself.
For example some people believe everyone should be able to live their lives the way they want to without judgement. Thus the idea of a God who has commandments repulses them and they refuse to entertain the idea.

Others believe they know better than God so that even if they believe God exists they think he really knows everything about everything. They believe that sometimes their solutions are better than God's solutions or that God will not know the answer to a particular question they have. Many Christians fall into this trap. Unfortunately the only way out of their Non-belief is for them to take a leap of faith and do what God commands they do in a particular situation so they can learn for themselves that God really does know all things.

I could mention other things but all in all my point is that the type of unbelief that gets people into hell is not the accidental type. It is willful type of unbelief.

If nobody goes to hell by not knowing that God exists, why is He trying, allegedly, to reveal Himself?

The whole revelation thing (e.g. sending prophets, messiahs, missionaries and all) looks like a hide and seek exercise which is ultimately detrimental towards increasing someone's odds to escape hell.

it all boils down to the following questions: if I live a very moral life, without knowing about God or Jesus, will I go to Hell? If not, what happens if before I die I hear the stories of a Christian missionary and do not believe them?

Ciao

- viole

 

[DLR]

....it all boils down to the following questions: if I live a very moral life, without knowing about God or Jesus, will I go to Hell? If not, what happens if before I die I hear the stories of a Christian missionary and do not believe them?

Ciao

- viole

My faith teaches that you will go to hell if you don't accept the teachings of the missionary in your scenario. Saved only by acceptance, repentance and the grace of God. It is a gift and not something you can earn with good works. Nonetheless, I put high importance on doing good works even though I am taught that doesn't get it done by itself. I'm pretty sure other denominations believe good works and you got it covered.

My question has always been what happens to those who never have the opportunity? A young child, or a person born in a nation where they are never exposed to Christianity. If God is loving and just as we profess, then this question needs resolution IMO.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

My faith teaches that you will go to hell if you don't accept the teachings of the missionary in your scenario. Saved only by acceptance, repentance and the grace of God. It is a gift and not something you can earn with good works. Nonetheless, I put high importance on doing good works even though I am taught that doesn't get it done by itself. I'm pretty sure other denominations believe good works and you got it covered.

My question has always been what happens to those who never have the opportunity? A young child, or a person born in a nation where they are never exposed to Christianity. If God is loving and just as we profess, then this question needs resolution IMO.

That seems like the sort of question you (or someone in your denomination) ought to have answered before sending out missionaries. If a person who has never been exposed to Christianity (or what you consider "true" Christianity, if you make that distinction) will end up okay but a person who's been evangelized to is damned if they don't accept the message they're given, then evangelism is the most immoral act imaginable.

 

[viole]

My faith teaches that you will go to hell if you don't accept the teachings of the missionary in your scenario. Saved only by acceptance, repentance and the grace of God. It is a gift and not something you can earn with good works. Nonetheless, I put high importance on doing good works even though I am taught that doesn't get it done by itself. I'm pretty sure other denominations believe good works and you got it covered.

My question has always been what happens to those who never have the opportunity? A young child, or a person born in a nation where they are never exposed to Christianity. If God is loving and just as we profess, then this question needs resolution IMO.

My impression is that this question does not have any resolution, under the premises of objective morality and a just God. This conclusion is based on pure logical grounds, if morality is objective and a just God exists.

For, no matter what perspective you take, some will have an edge because of contingencies outside their control. And the fact that they are outside their control should not weigh in favor of them or against them, when it comes to judge them.

So, for instance, if Christians send missionaries all over the world, then we can assume they do it for some reason (e.g. Increasing the probability of souls being saved) unless they are being completely illogical. But increasing the probabilty of souls being saved entails that without missionaries souls have a lower probability of being saved. Which contradicts the premise of a just God.

In other words, spreading the Gospel, is self defeating. It is more like a Badspel, so to speak.

Ciao

- viole

 

[Useless2015]

Well...good point. We Pelagians do not think that St. Paul was right, when he talked about grace. We just hear from Jesus' parables, and through them we can easily (and without doubts) understand that men save themselves through their merits. Besides, Jesus Himself said: you will perform even greater miracles than mine.

How can someone be saved despite denying the very existence of Jesus? Why would God bother sacrificing his own son if everyone will be saved? To 'show his 'love' is not going to cut it...

 

[Useless2015]

If you did your neighbor bad, kiss and make up or you'll pay for it later -- Jesus

Didn't Jesus pay for it when he died?

 

[Thanda]

If nobody goes to hell by not knowing that God exists, why is He trying, allegedly, to reveal Himself?

The whole revelation thing (e.g. sending prophets, messiahs, missionaries and all) looks like a hide and seek exercise which is ultimately detrimental towards increasing someone's odds to escape hell.

it all boils down to the following questions: if I live a very moral life, without knowing about God or Jesus, will I go to Hell? If not, what happens if before I die I hear the stories of a Christian missionary and do not believe them?

Ciao

- viole

Nobody goes to hell because of not knowing God exists because it is very easy to remedy this problem. When we stand before God at Judgement no one will have any doubt God exists.

God is revealing himself because his "commandment is life eternal". He wants us to know all his teaching so that we can receive the greatest of blessings in the life to come.

if I live a very moral life, without knowing about God or Jesus, will I go to Hell?

Firstly it is impossible to live a completely moral life without knowing God and Jesus. But you can live an understandably good life without knowing them. That is, God will have mercy on you for those commandments you couldn't keep because your didn't know they existed. So no, you will not go to hell if you live your life to the best of your knowledge. You see it is not written that our learning will stop when we die. Therefore if we have been willing to accept truth throughout our lives then it follows that we will be willing to accept truth even when we reach the other side.

As a result a person will not be able to use their ignorance of the existence of God as an excuse for living a life they could plainly see was immoral. You don't need to know God exists to know that sleeping with a woman against her will is wrong.

If not, what happens if before I die I hear the stories of a Christian missionary and do not believe them?

The Bible states the following in 1 Peter 3:

18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put todeath in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.​

and in chapter 4:

For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.​

The dead are not forgotten. The gospel is preached to them if they either didn't hear it while on earth of if they rejected it. Those who willfully rejected the gospel on earth without any mitigating circumstances will reject it again in the life to come. Those who rejected it on earth only because it wasn't explained well enough or some reason like that will have a chance to accept it again. Those who never received it while on earth who would have accepted it if they received it will accept in the life to come. Those who never received the gospel who would have rejected it if they had received it will reject it again.

 

[DLR]

That seems like the sort of question you (or someone in your denomination) ought to have answered before sending out missionaries. If a person who has never been exposed to Christianity (or what you consider "true" Christianity, if you make that distinction) will end up okay but a person who's been evangelized to is damned if they don't accept the message they're given, then evangelism is the most immoral act imaginable.

That seems like the sort of question you (or someone in your denomination) ought to have answered before sending out missionaries. If a person who has never been exposed to Christianity (or what you consider "true" Christianity, if you make that distinction) will end up okay but a person who's been evangelized to is damned if they don't accept the message they're given, then evangelism is the most immoral act imaginable.

I believe we have rationalized babies. They are innocent of sin and don't require Christs blood sacrifice. They get a bye so to speak. That sounds reasonable to me. I would think there is an age of accountability, but it is not specified in the Bible to my knowledge. I have never gotten a clear answer on those who have never had the chance to deny or accept Christ. I will pin my Pastor down very soon on this matter. I've never seen it addressed on Baptist websites. We have no central authority like Catholicism so I won't be shocked if there is disagreement within the denomination.

 

[Thanda]

So, for instance, if Christians send missionaries all over the world, then we can assume they do it for some reason (e.g. Increasing the probability of souls being saved) unless they are being completely illogical. But increasing the probabilty of souls being saved entails that without missionaries souls have a lower probability of being saved. Which contradicts the premise of a just God.

God sends missionaries around the world. Because the gospel is not only useful in the life to come but also in this life as well. If people kept the commandments of God there wouldn't be the suffering caused by war and hunger that we see in this world.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Edit: If you think anyone is at fault, explanation is welcome.

It's all Santa Claus' fault because Santa is really Satan. Bah humbug by the way.

 

[wizanda]

What doctrine is that? I am one hundred percent sure that Jesus talked about non-believers going to hell. Where do you get your doctrine from? Made it up yourself?

Matthew 16:27 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done.
Revelation 20:13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done.

The gospel of John is made up, and the writings of Paul contradict Christ.... So your idea of a 100% sure, doesn't count for much.

 

[DLR]

...So, for instance, if Christians send missionaries all over the world, then we can assume they do it for some reason (e.g. Increasing the probability of souls being saved) unless they are being completely illogical. But increasing the probabilty of souls being saved entails that without missionaries souls have a lower probability of being saved. Which contradicts the premise of a just God.

In other words, spreading the Gospel, is self defeating. It is more like a Badspel, so to speak.

Ciao

- viole

Hence the emphasis it receives. I don't know what percentage of my small church's "disposable income" is spent funding missionaries but it is substantial. (My mother is the church treasurer so I won't wonder much longer). We also spend a lot of money feeding the local poor on a weekly basis. By doctrine that has absolutely zippo to do with salvation. I suppose we do it because Jesus fed the poor. Way off topic of course, but your question got me thinking about how we spend our money.

 

[viole]

Nobody goes to hell because of not knowing God exists because it is very easy to remedy this problem. When we stand before God at Judgement no one will have any doubt God exists.

God is revealing himself because his "commandment is life eternal". He wants us to know all his teaching so that we can receive the greatest of blessings in the life to come.

Which entails that only crazy people will go to hell. Namely the ones who insist to not believe in God even when they are in front of Him. I am pretty sure that if I find myself at the pearly gates after my death, I will convert immediately. Who wouldn't?

That would entail also that hell is more like an eternal psychiatric ward

Firstly it is impossible to live a completely moral life without knowing God and Jesus. But you can live an understandably good life without knowing them. That is, God will have mercy on you for those commandments you couldn't keep because your didn't know they existed. So no, you will not go to hell if your life to the best of your knowledge. You see it is not written that our learning will stop when we die. Therefore if we have been willing to accept truth throughout our lives then it follows that we will be willing to accept truth even when we reach the other side.

As a result a person will not be able to use their ignorance of the existence of God as an excuse for living a life they could plainly see was immoral. You don't need to know God exists to know that sleeping with a woman against her will is wrong.

At the end of the day, who is more likely to go to Heaven? The ones who knew about Jesus or the one who did not? (keeping all other variables constant).

If someone ought to know that sleeping with a woman against her will is wrong even without God, what do we need God for? And who is more moral, someone who knows it wthout God or someone that has been reminded or confirmed by God that it is wrong?

You seem to admit that God knowledge is useless. And if it is not useless, what advantages does it bring to the ones who possess it?

The Bible states the following in 1 Peter 3:

18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put todeath in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.​

and in chapter 4:

For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.​

The dead are not forgotten. The gospel is preached to them if they either didn't hear it while on earth of if they rejected it. Those who willfully rejected the gospel on earth without any mitigating circumstances will reject it again in the life to come. Those who rejected it on earth only because it wasn't explained well enough or some reason like that will have a chance to accept it again. Those who never received it while on earth who would have accepted it if they received it will accept in the life to come. Those who never received the gospel who would have rejected it if they had received it will reject it again.

Yet, if someone preaches me the Gospel after I am dead, I expect to have a higher chance to believe him. Wouldn't you?
Which still gives me a great advantage if I never received it while being alive.

And it is true that who potentially accepts the gospel will accept it even without having heard it (and vice versa) then it is useless to spread the gospel to start with. Some missionaries risked their lives to spread the Gospel. What were their rational motivations, if any?

Ciao

- viole

 

[wizanda]

Why would God bother sacrificing his own son if everyone will be saved?

God didn't sacrifice his son, we murdered Yeshua, as we perceived that was what was meant to happen, and in the process, defiled lots of laws.....So according to the prophets, Christianity is there to catch out all the workers of iniquity in one go.

The people saved according to Yeshua are the ones following his teachings, which state people are judged by their works, and character, not from a belief, as the Pharisees (John, Paul and Simon the stone[petros]) made up after.

 

[DLR]

...The people saved according to Yeshua are the ones following his teachings, which state people are judged by their works, and character, not from a belief...

Do you have a source for that statement? I would like to read it.

 

[viole]

God sends missionaries around the world. Because the gospel is not only useful in the life to come but also in this life as well. If people kept the commandments of God there wouldn't be the suffering caused by war and hunger that we see in this world.

Before we come to terms with the advantages in this life, can you show me the advantages for the after life, if any? They are still missing in action, I think.

More importantly, why do those advantages exist at all, considering that the after life is, allegedely, eternal and therefore vastly more important than the few decades we have to live here?

Ciao

- viole

 

[Useless2015]

Matthew 16:27 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done.
Revelation 20:13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done.

The gospel of John is made up, and the writings of Paul contradict Christ.... So your idea of a 100% sure, doesn't count for much.

This seems to be a Christian sectarian dispute. To me in the Bible it clearly says that non-believers will be thrown in a lake of fire forever.

 

[Useless2015]

God didn't sacrifice his son, we murdered Yeshua, as we perceived that was what was meant to happen, and in the process, defiled lots of laws.....So according to the prophets, Christianity is there to catch out all the workers of iniquity in one go.

The people saved according to Yeshua are the ones following his teachings, which state people are judged by their works, and character, not from a belief, as the Pharisees (John, Paul and Simon the stone[petros]) made up after.

What church do you belong to?

 

[Estro Felino]

Do you have a source for that statement? I would like to read it.

"And angels shall come forth and sever the wicked from among the just"
It is obvious that wickedness is when you hurt other people. The just are the ones who defend and love other people and fight for justice.

Seriously, I've never heard of a passage in the Bible where it says: angels will sever the non-believers from the believers

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I believe we have rationalized babies. They are innocent of sin and don't require Christs blood sacrifice. They get a bye so to speak. That sounds reasonable to me. I would think there is an age of accountability, but it is not specified in the Bible to my knowledge. I have never gotten a clear answer on those who have never had the chance to deny or accept Christ. I will pin my Pastor down very soon on this matter. I've never seen it addressed on Baptist websites. We have no central authority like Catholicism so I won't be shocked if there is disagreement within the denomination.

Don't you think it's irresponsible to evangelize to people without having a clear answer in the first place?