Non Christians: if the Christian God is real...

[firedragon]

The D source is mostly Deuteronomy.

D is all Deuteronomy.

But if you knew this all along, why did you grill me on this for a while?

You were talking about very different things, all wrong, so I thought it was some other theory.

Anyway, this has gone the distance. Thanks for engaging.

 

[Exaltist Ethan]

Part 1 of 2.

If God PROVED that He exists to everyone the everyone would know that God exists. they might not want to believe in God so they might dissociate theme]selves from God, but they would know that God exists since that is what proof is all about.

Okay. Let me say this. God can do anything, right? That's what makes God, God. God could literally infect every brain of every nonbelieving irreligious person to suddenly believe in him, correct? So yeah, God could do that ... only if He did, He would be removing free will.

There are pictures the United States took when we landed on the moon. There are people who still believe regardless of the evidence that NASA never landed on the moon. There are some people who still believe the world is flat as well.

I am not saying God couldn't just prove and make everybody believe in Him. But if he did, he would necessarily have to remove free will as will. If that was the case, Earth itself would be completely different than it is right now. Everybody would probably be mindless robots to this God. And that's not good either.

How God would prove He exists to everyone is another matter altogether. Only God knows how that could be accomplished.

The way I perceive God is so drastically different from how you see it... I see God in everything. I am a fractal of God, you are a fractal of God, everything is a fractal of God, always changing and evolving in different ways... God has already proven to me that It exists. I can see my TV. I can taste my food. I can drink my water. All of these are just examples of the fractals that exist within God. This is how I know God. You might require faith to believe, but I don't. The more faith you have in God the less you know what God really is, unfortunately.

God is omnipresent so in that sense God has the ability to be everywhere, but I do not believe that the entity we call God resides in this material realm of existence. Rather, God resides in the spiritual world in the realm on high, on His Throne of Glory, and is self-subsisting. As such, nearness to God does not mean we are near where God resides, it means our souls are near to God because our minds and hearts are centered on God.

There is no actual proof or evidence of the spiritual world. You believe in your faith. I know God and you can know It too if you stop having faith and realize what is really going on.

The Baha'i Faith is hardly obscure as it is all over the internet, but one has to be careful when looking at websites because there is a lot of misinformation out there, especially posted by Christians and Muslims who are attempting to discredit the Bahai Faith.

The best starting point to get accurate information is on The Baháʼí Faith - Home which is The Official Website of the Worldwide Bahá’í Community

I will grant you that when I was first on the Internet I was on dial-up AOL. Things have changed. I'm sure there are plenty of resources and YES I do believe that the Baha'i Faith is large enough to be a world religion. However, just because a lot of people believe in it doesn't make it true....

I cannot say why some people find it easy to find and believe in the Baha'i Faith and some people simply do not believe in it even if they find it. One reason is that some people put forth more effort and they are guided by God.

Or maybe it's because people perceptions are different and two people can see things differently even if it is the same thing? I'll give you an example. I had a shirt that I thought was bright red. My mom thought it was pink. Whenever I referred to the bright red shirt she didn't know what I was talking about. I had to always say it was pink to get her frame of mind on it.

The shirt exists, but what the color was debated between my mom and I. Now think about God. If the shirt is God, some people will say there is no shirt, or the shirt is different colors, or that there's many shirts with different colors. And I would argue that there is one giant shirt and all of us have some piece of it. The concept of God is so subjective that you literally can't take two people and have anyone agree on what it is.

Why would you expect religions that were revealed in different ages to different people be the same?
The religions have different social teachings and laws because they needed to be different in order to address the needs of the times in which they were revealed, but the essential spiritual teachings are the same in all the true religions.

Now you might ask why some teachings such as polytheism and reincarnation vs. monotheism and heaven are different, but to explain that properly would require another post or a new thread, because it is rather involved.

That's because religion usually pertains to God Itself. An economist knows about money; a government knows how to sovereign; an engineer understands tools. It's not really a mystery that all religions would obey things like the Golden Rule. Languages with different letters still use roughly the same sounds in consonants and vowels. We're all human. And even then, there are still differences between religions that cannot escape.

It's not just monotheism vs polytheism. It's monotheism vs polytheism vs henotheism vs pantheism vs atheism vs agnosticism and a lot of others. And the list goes on. Two people may believe in Heaven but they might believe very different things about Heaven. If you took a Catholic and a Baha'i and asked them about Heaven you'd get two very different interpretations of the same thing. Is that what God wanted?

Why do you believe that dead bodies will be resurrected to life? Why would you want to have the same physical body for all of eternity? Even the Bible says that in heaven we will have a spiritual body, not a physical body, so this is not only a Baha'i belief.

I am not saying you remain in the same body forever. Between cybernetics and CRSPR there are probably ways which your body could literally evolve to do wondrous things. And by the way ... science has already proven that every seven to ten years all the cells in your body get replaced by new ones. Why do you think people look different throughout their lifetimes? It's not just aging their cells themselves are getting replaced by new ones. That's why you eat and drink things.

 

[Exaltist Ethan]

Part 2 of 2.

It is a Baha'i belief that there are many worlds besides this world which we will unveiled to our eyes after we die physically and leave this world. Our soul will continue to exist after our body dies and we will have a spiritual body comprised of spiritual elements. Whatever psychological or physical s=diseases we has will be no more because they are associated with the physical body that is no more. I never had bipolar disorder but I had major depression and generalized anxiety disorder.

Again; you have faith in God; I know God. You consistently quote different scriptures to build your world view, and I look at my surroundings and understand that those things are actually fractals of a much larger picture. We both understand God, but in radically different ways.

If you have not had a difficult life on Earth and there are things about this life that you would like to have forever I can understand why you might want to live on this Earth forever. That made me think of these Bible verses which concur with Baha'i beliefs about attachment to this world of dust barring us from eternal life, which is defined as nearness to God.

I don't read your scripture quotes. If you have something to say to me, say it in your own words please. I realize there are a lot of people who don't want to exist forever. And they don't have to. They can decompose and part a larger part of nature. I respect that in fact. It takes a lot of food to fuel the human brain.

Logically speaking, whatever is true is true and that is what will happen when we die. It is not about what we want, it is about what God created for us, which in my mind has to be better than anything that we can imagine for ourselves, since God is All-Knowing, All-Wise and All-Loving. I often complain to my husband about not wanting to go to the afterlife but he always tells me that.

See, I don't believe that. Humans create their own realities. Yes, we live in a reality where 1 + 1 will always equal 2. But what about things like houses, cars, stores, products and services? Humans did that. Not God. If you realize this you start to understand that a vast majority of the divinity around here is caused by humans, rather than God. We have turned Earth into an anthropomorphic paradise for ourselves. And we did this for us.
It is about what we want.

That is probably true that many people believe what they want to believe, rather than thinking in terms of what is actually true. I mean that they believe what they believe is true because it is what they want to believe.

Do you believe if you imagine something to occur it is more likely to occur? Let's say you have a dream where you are eating a banana. Are you more likely to eat a banana when you wake up? This isn't just belief. When someone says that any person who doesn't believe in their God is going to Hell, they are picturing a world where that person will end up going to Hell if they don't believe and obey the rules of that God. It's cruel. But at least Baha'is don't really believe in Hell, just a remoteness of God; which is impossible, I guess everybody goes to Heaven at one point.

I can totally relate to what you said, that I would rather have my own life that I have made for myself, no matter how difficult it is, than some afterlife that God has prepared for me. My house is my sanctuary and I want to be here as long as I can be here. I am not afraid of the afterlife, which I believe will be in a spiritual world, and I believe it will be much better than this life could ever be. On the other hand there are things about this life I like and don't want to leave behind, mainly my cats, animals, and nature. I did not include people I love since I believe for certain that I will see them in the afterlife.

The way i see it when you die that is it. You don't see anything, you don't experience anything, nothing happens to you. Now, if you were given a choice between eternal life with the advancement of our technology, or nothing, which one would you choose? This contraption of an afterlife is sick because the religious will always argue for non-existence, believing it is somehow an existence. Most people don't want to die. Most people want to live forever. And if things continue the way they are, we could make something pretty close to your idea of Heaven someday. That's what I aim for. A reality created by us, not this "God of The Omniverse" you so design. If there is such a God, and there's not, I would be afraid of it. And Christians always tell us to fear God, right?

The Omniverse created the Hyperverses. The Hyperverses created the Xenoverses. The Xenoverses created the Metaverses. The Metaverses created the Multiverses. The Multiverses created the Universes. The Universe exists as a means to create supermassive black holes and stars. This ultimately created space debris that shaped Earth. When Earth was formed, it developed qualities that made it possible for weather to exist. Weather created sea life. Sea life developed the ability to sustain itself on land. Land life existed for a long time, developing an assortment and variety of life. Eventually monkeys found it useful to become more intelligent and to have apposable thumbs. We ate meat and our brains became larger. We developed ways to understand our environment and developed language. We eventually created agricultural and gathering societies. Those became the start of civilizations. Civilizations flourished and developed the sciences to understand nature; or God. Those fell and became the nations we know today. That is the history that we come to know it today. It starts with The Omniverse and it ends with what we have right now. To say at one point that this "God of The Omniverse" did it removes our ability to do it ourselves. Stop having faith, start knowing and understand God in the natural sense. Nature itself is the beginning and we are part of that very essence, that nature.

Now, I realize that you will never be a syntheist; you will quote scripture until you die and somehow feel better with that faith rather than the reality science helps us understand. But you have to realize too, that I will never be Baha'i. I don't remember or quote scripture, not even from books that I like to read. We have two fundamental differences that will never be the same. I believe and have evidence that existence itself is divine, and you have this faith in spiritual works from various prophets throughout modern human history. And that's it. I don't need to debate this anymore with you.

 

[crossfire]

I’m asking non Christians this hypothetical. If the Christian God was undoubtedly real, would you become a Christian? Let’s say the Christian God proved Himself to you, He does whatever He has to to make you believe. Maybe the sky was ripped open in front of you and Jesus Christ poked His head out and said “hey”.
I saw someone say that “even if he was real, he wouldn’t meet my moral standards.” Is this true for you? The God of the Bible does some pretty gnarly stuff. And He commanded the Israelites to do some gnarly stuff with His law.
For me, I think I would serve Him. I would suspend my understanding of moral standards I suppose. Allow myself to know that I have a subjective perspective. What about you though? Even if He is real, would you want to be His follower?
I am unsure of my position. Jehovah is mighty but arguably immoral from our human perspective. Jesus Christ is great though, died for us and stuff.

Any sentient being is vulnerable to delusion, simply due to the nature of sentience. (Sentience is having a subjective mind, and delusion being the confusion of subjectively produced content for objective reality.) Even the Christian god would be vulnerable to delusion. Now, as to whether Jesus was trying to help this god overcome its delusion would be an interesting avenue to investigate.

 

[F1fan]

That's what I do. I work to avoid bias. I can't say I'm objective however.

Great. So you acknowledge that not only is there no evidence for any Gods, many of these claims are contrary to what we understand about reality?

 

[Trailblazer]

Part 1 of 2.

Okay. Let me say this. God can do anything, right? That's what makes God, God. God could literally infect every brain of every nonbelieving irreligious person to suddenly believe in him, correct? So yeah, God could do that ... only if He did, He would be removing free will.

There are pictures the United States took when we landed on the moon. There are people who still believe regardless of the evidence that NASA never landed on the moon. There are some people who still believe the world is flat as well.

I am not saying God couldn't just prove and make everybody believe in Him. But if he did, he would necessarily have to remove free will as will. If that was the case, Earth itself would be completely different than it is right now. Everybody would probably be mindless robots to this God. And that's not good either.

I agree that God could make everyone into a believer. That would not remove free will but it would interfere with free will by overriding a human's free will to choose. If God made everyone believe in Him belief would no longer be a choice and everyone on Earth would be reduced to a mindless robot programmed to believe in God. No, I do not think that would be good at all. I think that belief in God should be a choice people are allowed to make with no interference from anyone.

The way I perceive God is so drastically different from how you see it... I see God in everything. I am a fractal of God, you are a fractal of God, everything is a fractal of God, always changing and evolving in different ways... God has already proven to me that It exists. I can see my TV. I can taste my food. I can drink my water. All of these are just examples of the fractals that exist within God. This is how I know God. You might require faith to believe, but I don't. The more faith you have in God the less you know what God really is, unfortunately.

No, I do not see humans as part of God, I believe that God is separate from us. God is only within us in the sense that we reflect the attributes of God and the mysteries of God are found within man.

As I said in the OP on another thread I started yesterday, the better the evidence we have of God’s existence the less faith we will require in order to believe in God. I do not require much faith because I have good evidence of God's existence.

There is no actual proof or evidence of the spiritual world. You believe in your faith. I know God and you can know It too if you stop having faith and realize what is really going on.

What you believe is really going on is based upon what you think you know about God from your own experience and what I believe I know about God is based upon what was revealed by Baha'u'llah. Neither one of us can prove we are right, that is the nature of a belief.

I will grant you that when I was first on the Internet I was on dial-up AOL. Things have changed. I'm sure there are plenty of resources and YES I do believe that the Baha'i Faith is large enough to be a world religion. However, just because a lot of people believe in it doesn't make it true....

Of course the size of a religion has nothing to do with whether it is true or not. The Baha'i Faith is relatively small compared to the other world religions since they have had much more time to grow. When Jesus walked the Earth and for a long time afterwards there were very few Christians since few people had found Christianity.

Matthew 7:13-14 Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

Only a few people find the new religion at the narrow gate and of these people few people are able to enter through the narrow gate because it is narrow, so it is difficult to get through and few people are able to follow the narrow road because it is narrow, so it is difficult to walk on. It is much easier to enter through a wide gate and walk on abroad road.

It is difficult to get through the narrow gate because one has to be willing to give up all their preconceived ideas, have an open mind, and think for themselves. Most people do not embark upon such a journey. They go through the wide gate, the easy one to get through – their own religious tradition or their own preconceived ideas about God or no god. They follow that broad road that is easiest for them to travel.... and that is why the NEW religion is always rejected by most people for a very long time after it has been revealed.

Or maybe it's because people perceptions are different and two people can see things differently even if it is the same thing? I'll give you an example. I had a shirt that I thought was bright red. My mom thought it was pink. Whenever I referred to the bright red shirt she didn't know what I was talking about. I had to always say it was pink to get her frame of mind on it.

The shirt exists, but what the color was debated between my mom and I. Now think about God. If the shirt is God, some people will say there is no shirt, or the shirt is different colors, or that there's many shirts with different colors. And I would argue that there is one giant shirt and all of us have some piece of it. The concept of God is so subjective that you literally can't take two people and have anyone agree on what it is.

Yes, the main reason why people understand God differently is because they are looking at God from different perspectives which come from a combination of factors such as childhood upbringing, education, and adult experiences. All of these are the reasons why people have different perspectives and choose one religion or another or choose no religion at all.

That's because religion usually pertains to God Itself. An economist knows about money; a government knows how to sovereign; an engineer understands tools. It's not really a mystery that all religions would obey things like the Golden Rule. Languages with different letters still use roughly the same sounds in consonants and vowels. We're all human. And even then, there are still differences between religions that cannot escape.

It's not just monotheism vs polytheism. It's monotheism vs polytheism vs henotheism vs pantheism vs atheism vs agnosticism and a lot of others. And the list goes on. Two people may believe in Heaven but they might believe very different things about Heaven. If you took a Catholic and a Baha'i and asked them about Heaven you'd get two very different interpretations of the same thing. Is that what God wanted?

Since God is all-knowing God had to know the outcome of revealing different religions in different ages, and that they would lead to people having very different beliefs. I can only assume that is what God wanted for people in those past ages, since God revealed those different religions through His Messengers, but I do not believe that is what God wants for humanity in this age or in the ages to come. I believe God desires that humans unite under one common Faith and God has ordained it to happen so it will happen. My belief that this will happen eventually is based upon what Baha'u'llah wrote below, but I doubt it will happen any time soon, because most people are so entrenched in their religions, which is usually the religion they were raised in.

“That which the Lord hath ordained as the sovereign remedy and mightiest instrument for the healing of all the world is the union of all its peoples in one universal Cause, one common Faith. This can in no wise be achieved except through the power of a skilled, an all-powerful and inspired Physician. This, verily, is the truth, and all else naught but error.” The Summons of the Lord of Hosts, p. 91

I am not saying you remain in the same body forever. Between cybernetics and CRSPR there are probably ways which your body could literally evolve to do wondrous things. And by the way ... science has already proven that every seven to ten years all the cells in your body get replaced by new ones. Why do you think people look different throughout their lifetimes? It's not just aging their cells themselves are getting replaced by new ones. That's why you eat and drink things.

Cells are continually getting replaced by new ones but the human body was never designed by God to be immortal. It was designed to live a certain life span, die and decompose. What I believe happens after that was is described by a Christian in this quote.

421. When the body is no longer able to perform the bodily functions in the natural world that correspond to the spirit’s thoughts and affections, which the spirit has from the spiritual world, man is said to die. This takes place when the respiration of the lungs and the beatings of the heart cease. But the man does not die; he is merely separated from the bodily part that was of use to him in the world, while the man himself continues to live. It is said that the man himself continues to live since man is not a man because of his body but because of his spirit, for it is the spirit that thinks in man, and thought with affection is what constitutes man. Evidently, then, the death of man is merely his passing from one world into another. And this is why in the Word in its internal sense “death” signifies resurrection and continuation of life. Heaven and Hell, p. 351

I believe that the death of man is merely his soul passing from one world into another. When the soul passes from this world into the spiritual world it takes on a new form comprised of spiritual elements and the man continues to live forever.

 

[Trailblazer]

Part 2 of 2

Again; you have faith in God; I know God. You consistently quote different scriptures to build your world view, and I look at my surroundings and understand that those things are actually fractals of a much larger picture. We both understand God, but in radically different ways.

I not only have faith in God, I believe I know what can be known about God, which are God's attributes and God's will for humanity in this age. I know nothing of the Essence of God.

You believe you know God from your own understandings, and I believe I know God from scripture. Yes, we understand God is very different ways.

I don't read your scripture quotes. If you have something to say to me, say it in your own words please. I realize there are a lot of people who don't want to exist forever. And they don't have to. They can decompose and part a larger part of nature. I respect that in fact. It takes a lot of food to fuel the human brain.

Sorry about the previous post. I will try to remember that about the scripture quotes now that I know.

I do not believe we will have a choice to exist forever or not exist forever. It is not as if we are the ones who determine that. If God created the soul to exist forever that is how it will be whether we like it or not.

See, I don't believe that. Humans create their own realities. Yes, we live in a reality where 1 + 1 will always equal 2. But what about things like houses, cars, stores, products and services? Humans did that. Not God. If you realize this you start to understand that a vast majority of the divinity around here is caused by humans, rather than God. We have turned Earth into an anthropomorphic paradise for ourselves. And we did this for us.
It is about what we want.

That's right. Since God gave humans free will and a brain and mind we have created our own reality on this Earth, but I do not believe this is a reality that will last forever, and I believe in it really only an illusion because the real world is the spiritual world. This Earth is hardly paradise although many people live as if it is.

Do you believe if you imagine something to occur it is more likely to occur? Let's say you have a dream where you are eating a banana. Are you more likely to eat a banana when you wake up? This isn't just belief. When someone says that any person who doesn't believe in their God is going to Hell, they are picturing a world where that person will end up going to Hell if they don't believe and obey the rules of that God. It's cruel. But at least Baha'is don't really believe in Hell, just a remoteness of God; which is impossible, I guess everybody goes to Heaven at one point.

No, I do not believe that just because we imagine something it is more likely to occur and it is certainly not more likely to occur just because we believe it will. So just because Christians believe in Heaven and Hell as places that people go that does not make it so.

I do not know if everyone will go to Heaven at one point, I do not think anyone except God knows that.

The way i see it when you die that is it. You don't see anything, you don't experience anything, nothing happens to you. Now, if you were given a choice between eternal life with the advancement of our technology, or nothing, which one would you choose? This contraption of an afterlife is sick because the religious will always argue for non-existence, believing it is somehow an existence. Most people don't want to die. Most people want to live forever. And if things continue the way they are, we could make something pretty close to your idea of Heaven someday. That's what I aim for. A reality created by us, not this "God of The Omniverse" you so design. If there is such a God, and there's not, I would be afraid of it. And Christians always tell us to fear God, right?

Nobody can know what will happen to us when we die, we can only have beliefs. I believe we will pass to the spiritual world and continue to exist as souls with spiritual bodies and we will see and experience many worlds of God, but I have no idea what that will be like.

Sure, most people do not want to die because they are afraid that is the end of life, and even if they believe in a Heaven they are still afraid because it is unknown what Heaven will be like. There are some Christians who believe they will be resurrected to live on Earth forever in a paradise like the Garden of Eden. People are free to believe whatever they want to believe, but beliefs do not determine reality. The afterlife will be whatever God designed it to be.

The Omniverse created the Hyperverses. The Hyperverses created the Xenoverses. The Xenoverses created the Metaverses. The Metaverses created the Multiverses. The Multiverses created the Universes. The Universe exists as a means to create supermassive black holes and stars. This ultimately created space debris that shaped Earth. When Earth was formed, it developed qualities that made it possible for weather to exist. Weather created sea life. Sea life developed the ability to sustain itself on land. Land life existed for a long time, developing an assortment and variety of life. Eventually monkeys found it useful to become more intelligent and to have apposable thumbs. We ate meat and our brains became larger. We developed ways to understand our environment and developed language. We eventually created agricultural and gathering societies. Those became the start of civilizations. Civilizations flourished and developed the sciences to understand nature; or God. Those fell and became the nations we know today. That is the history that we come to know it today. It starts with The Omniverse and it ends with what we have right now. To say at one point that this "God of The Omniverse" did it removes our ability to do it ourselves. Stop having faith, start knowing and understand God in the natural sense. Nature itself is the beginning and we are part of that very essence, that nature.

As a Baha'i I do not believe that God created everything on Earth in six days, as many Christians believe. I believe that life on Earth evolved over many eons of time. I also believe that there is life on other planets.

Now, I realize that you will never be a syntheist; you will quote scripture until you die and somehow feel better with that faith rather than the reality science helps us understand. But you have to realize too, that I will never be Baha'i. I don't remember or quote scripture, not even from books that I like to read. We have two fundamental differences that will never be the same. I believe and have evidence that existence itself is divine, and you have this faith in spiritual works from various prophets throughout modern human history. And that's it. I don't need to debate this anymore with you.

As a Baha'i I believe in the harmony of science and religion and that both are necessary to sustain and advance life on Earth.

"Bahá’ís reject the notion that there is an inherent conflict between science and religion, a notion that became prevalent in intellectual discourse at a time when the very conception of each system of knowledge was far from adequate. The harmony of science and religion is one of the fundamental principles of the Bahá’í Faith, which teaches that religion, without science, soon degenerates into superstition and fanaticism, while science without religion becomes merely the instrument of crude materialism."
Science and Religion | An Ever-Advancing Civilization | God and His Creation | What Bahá’ís Believe

Yes, we have fundamentally different beliefs but I have no desire to argue about who is right and I have no interest in convincing you of what I believe. I am just here to exchange ideas and have friendly discussions. I have no interest in a debate.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

Sorry about the previous post. I will try to remember that about the scripture quotes now that I know.

I would second that idea about not quoting scripture to unbelievers. I for one virtually never read it whatever the holy book (not just your citations). It's basically a statement of what the believer believes, which is almost never useful to the skeptic, who wants to know what others can demonstrate to be correct to him, not what he has chosen to believe by faith.

I also agreed with the sentiment that one should make his own arguments, not merely reproduce somebody else's words. Citations or links can support such an argument, but shouldn't substitute for it, especially if they're not going to be read, which is usually the case with me. I generally assume that when I get an orphan link or citation - material without accompanying argument - that the person posting them doesn't understand them and can't defend them anyway based on multiple experiences rebutting the arguments contained in such sources. The poster generally comes back with, "that wasn't my point" or "that's not the part I meant" or some other comment that lets one know that this discussion is going nowhere. The one person qualified to defend the text, its author, is not present for the discussion.

Are you sure you want to program people to be good?

If it were possible to dial in moral values, yes, I think that would be the thing to do. We try to do that anyway, but through moral instruction, the best shot we have at determining our children's sense of right and wrong.

Wouldn't it be better to educate the kids to the point they understand all sides?

That's a different subject, learning about the world. That is done through experience principally, and a little through instruction such as school.

How many problems would simply disappear if everyone concentrated on solving the problems rather than valuing all those petty things mankind holds so dear?

How nice if we didn't have to wait for them to want to help, but could dial in a sense of civil responsibility.

 

[Trailblazer]

I would second that idea about not quoting scripture to unbelievers. I for one virtually never read it whatever the holy book (not just your citations). It's basically a statement of what the believer believes, which is almost never useful to the skeptic, who wants to know what others can demonstrate to be correct to him, not what he has chosen to believe by faith.

I understand how most atheists feel about scripture quotes so I usually do not post them unless absolutely necessary to support a statement I made, but @EthanReilly is not an atheist. He is a believer, and I did not know how he felt about my quoting scriptures until he told me. Now I know.

He and I both believe in God but we have diametrically opposed beliefs about God and the afterlife.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I'd light a joint rolled from a Bible page of his resurrection, throw the Bible at him and tell him I am serious about not going back to him amd rebuke him.

 

[Shaul]

I’m asking non Christians this hypothetical. If the Christian God was undoubtedly real, would you become a Christian? Let’s say the Christian God proved Himself to you, He does whatever He has to to make you believe. Maybe the sky was ripped open in front of you and Jesus Christ poked His head out and said “hey”.
I saw someone say that “even if he was real, he wouldn’t meet my moral standards.” Is this true for you? The God of the Bible does some pretty gnarly stuff. And He commanded the Israelites to do some gnarly stuff with His law.
For me, I think I would serve Him. I would suspend my understanding of moral standards I suppose. Allow myself to know that I have a subjective perspective. What about you though? Even if He is real, would you want to be His follower?
I am unsure of my position. Jehovah is mighty but arguably immoral from our human perspective. Jesus Christ is great though, died for us and stuff.

I would probably ask some questions in order to know what to do. Like, is Jesus still circumcised. If he isn’t, then how could he sit on the throne of David? If he is then why doesn’t he and his followers observe the Torah?

Now let me ask you a question. If the real moshiach comes, and it isn’t Jesus, would you acknowledge that the Jews got it right all along?

 

[Harel13]

I’m asking non Christians this hypothetical. If the Christian God was undoubtedly real, would you become a Christian?

Probably not. I would have difficulty worshiping a liar (think Judaism v. Christianity).

 

[an anarchist]

Now let me ask you a question. If the real moshiach comes, and it isn’t Jesus, would you acknowledge that the Jews got it right all along?

I suppose I could be convinced. He’d have to be one heck of a guy, though.

 

[Sundance]

Great question. Others have answered in way that I would agree with. Let me add this from a recent post discussing why what Christianity considers love is not that:

The relationship described is closer to an abusive partner than a loving god. Needing constant praise and making one feel guilty for being human is part of that, as are the severe anger and jealousy issues, allows bad things to happen to you to teach you a lesson, instills fear in you, claims credit for all of your successes and blames you for all the failures, threatens you with torture if you leave him, tells you how much you need him and are dependent on him, gives you credit for nothing, harps an how inadequate you are, and though he is often not there for you requires your unwavering devotion. It's basically, "Don't make me hurt you."

I'm reminded of a Carlin routine:

• "Religion has actually convinced people that there’s an invisible man living in the sky who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever ’til the end of time! But He loves you."

There’s so much that’s blatantly incorrect about your characterization of the Christian idea of God that, honestly, it makes me wanna blow a gasket. (And I’m a Pagan.)

In virtually no Abrahamic religion is God described as needing anything; He is self-sufficient. We worship any particular deity because we ourselves believe that he or she is worthy of it, not that they require our worship. It’s a conceptual thing.

In Christianity, it’s not so much that you’re human that’s the problem, it’s our deliberate wrongdoings that are the problem.

As to God’s anger and jealousy, God is only angry at evil, and is described as jealous because people promised Him that He alone would be their God, multiple times in fact. Multiple times, they went away from their promise. This is quite evident in the Bible. That is, if you’re actually reading the story. Are human relationships any different in this matter? No, they’re not.

As for why the Christian God seems to allow bad things to happen, I do not recall reading that just because a person believes in God, or is a good person, or for any other reason, that a person is exempt from the reality of pain and suffering and hardship. God does promise to give human beings comfort in those situations.

Once again, in the Bible it teaches only people who do wrong have to be afraid of God.

As for claiming credit and blaming us, it’s people who give God glory for the good things they have. It’s not God who claims credit, unless He does explicitly make the claim, as with the Exodus. I truly don’t know where this comes from. God only blames a person for the things they knowingly do wrong, even then, He’s willing to forgive people.

And not there for people? Are you sure about that? The same God who says things like “I will never leave you nor forsake you.”, “Do not fear, for I am with you. Do not be dismayed, for I am your God.”?

Requiring unwavering devotion? See the first response.

Soooooo let me see if I have this together.

A God who gives humanity the choice to do good or to do evil, but the responsibility to do right, even going so far as to explicitly say it multiple times; a God who gives constant reassurance, mercy, compassion, patience and forgiveness, even when those are undeserved, only punishing evildoers as a last resort; a God who says of human beings, “I made you in My image and after My likeness, to exercise my goodness and righteousness on the Earth.”; a God in whose text, you are given the choice to worship whatever you desire to worship (see Joshua 24:14), only being chastised for your own deliberate infidelity?



All of this constitutes an abusive type of relationship for you. Hm, I wonder what a healthy relationship looks like in your mind.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

There’s so much that’s blatantly incorrect about your characterization of the Christian idea of God that, honestly, it makes me wanna blow a gasket. (And I’m a Pagan.)

Yes, but one who suffers from Stockholm syndrome won't characterize the relationship themselves correctly.

 

[Sundance]

Yes, but one who suffers from Stockholm syndrome won't characterize the relationship themselves correctly.

Indeed. To respond, I’ll say that there is such a thing as slander. There is such a thing as libel. To deliberately mischaracterize a person based upon misunderstood actions or intentions would be thus, right?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Indeed. To respond, I’ll say that there is such a thing as slander. There is such a thing as libel. To deliberately mischaracterize a person based upon misunderstood actions or intentions would be thus, right?

I would say it's not a mischaracterization. The Christian god has well shown he has not patience or tolerance for disobedience and he often kill people over it, including those who had nothing to do with the offending act.

 

[Bird123]

I would second that idea about not quoting scripture to unbelievers. I for one virtually never read it whatever the holy book (not just your citations). It's basically a statement of what the believer believes, which is almost never useful to the skeptic, who wants to know what others can demonstrate to be correct to him, not what he has chosen to believe by faith.

I also agreed with the sentiment that one should make his own arguments, not merely reproduce somebody else's words. Citations or links can support such an argument, but shouldn't substitute for it, especially if they're not going to be read, which is usually the case with me. I generally assume that when I get an orphan link or citation - material without accompanying argument - that the person posting them doesn't understand them and can't defend them anyway based on multiple experiences rebutting the arguments contained in such sources. The poster generally comes back with, "that wasn't my point" or "that's not the part I meant" or some other comment that lets one know that this discussion is going nowhere. The one person qualified to defend the text, its author, is not present for the discussion.



If it were possible to dial in moral values, yes, I think that would be the thing to do. We try to do that anyway, but through moral instruction, the best shot we have at determining our children's sense of right and wrong.



That's a different subject, learning about the world. That is done through experience principally, and a little through instruction such as school.



How nice if we didn't have to wait for them to want to help, but could dial in a sense of civil responsibility.

Hoping to dial in learning will never be the best choice. We are all Living our lessons in this multilevel classroom. Free choice is an important part of learning. If one was controlled through being dialed in, one would do the opposite just as soon as one acquired freedom,
just to Discover what one was missing. Is this really the best choice?

Control is one of the petty things mankind holds so dear. Does anyone like being controlled? Isn't the reaction fighting back? What would you be really teaching through control? Certainly, it would not teach the best choice.

I say copy God. God places knowledge and truth all around us. God grants freedom of choice. This time-based causal world will return the results so that, in time, one will Discover for themselves what the Best choices really are.

Given enough lives, lessons, and learning along with our actions returning, we will all learn to Love Unconditionally. After all, isn't that what we all to return? Isn't that what brings the best results?

We all want peace, happiness and to have it made, however, just being given these things prevents one from Discovering how to create these things for oneself and others.

A very wise person told me when I was but a child that sometimes the roughest roads will end up with the best view.

God created this system and the more I come to Understand it all; the more I see that we are all walking the road which will lead to the best view for us all.

All the secrets of the Universe stare us all in the face. Knowledge runs well beyond the mere surface. The view changes as the Understanding increases.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[Truthseeker]

Great. So you acknowledge that not only is there no evidence for any Gods, many of these claims are contrary to what we understand about reality?

Absolutely not. That that is the only solution I could come to.

 

[firedragon]

Again; you have faith in God; I know God.

How do you substantiate that?