Nonbelievers to Hell!

[Meow Mix]

Are you not being rude...... calling God negligent?
And I will attempt to refrain my own objection...and stand back....
as you stand before God and make that accusation to His face.
All in good time.

As for the creation.
All things remain at rest until 'something' moves them.
Is this not a basic law of physical reality?

What initiated the big bang?
I say... God did it.

You're changing the subject. This isn't the first time you've used red herrings to get away from this subject, either.

I'm very interested -- seriously -- in how you make sense of God expecting belief but then providing no rational means for said belief being "good" or "just."

Can you please talk to me about that before we drift to other subjects again, or before doing more hand-waving dismissals ("Oh that's rude, say that to God") to avoid really analyzing it?

 

[yourhopeboundheart]

God allows you to think and feel.
He is not controlling your mind.

And it's not God doing the cruelty.
Who do you think rules in hell?

god doesn't seem to be in charge of much, and he's easily offended. couldn't we just lay him off?

 

[Thief]

You're changing the subject. This isn't the first time you've used red herrings to get away from this subject, either.

I'm very interested -- seriously -- in how you make sense of God expecting belief but then providing no rational means for said belief being "good" or "just."

Can you please talk to me about that before we drift to other subjects again, or before doing more hand-waving dismissals ("Oh that's rude, say that to God") to avoid really analyzing it?

You were the one that called God negligent....as if your opinion needed response.

If this is not the point, then do not stress it.

And that I mention the laws of motion as a cause to believe is insufficient?

Are you waiting for a photograph...or a fingerprint?

 

[Meow Mix]

You were the one that called God negligent....as if your opinion needed response.

If this is not the point, then do not stress it.

And that I mention the laws of motion as a cause to believe is insufficient?

Are you waiting for a photograph...or a fingerprint?

I'll take this as a sign that you either refuse to discuss the question or can't answer it. I'll let the reader have the benefit of the doubt that it's the first one but I'm pretty sure it's the second.

Edit: After re-reading your post I see that you're actually trying to provide justification with an ontological argument. Fair enough, let's suppose you win through ontology (you don't, I will argue against your first cause argument later but it's beside the point for right now) -- you've only established that "a" god exists. Do you believe that god punishes for believing in the wrong god? How do we know which god is the first mover? Or does believing in any ol' god still get you to heaven, even... say... believing an evil demon is god? Or something like that?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I have never seen anything in the bible that says that Mary is the daughter of Heli. Could you provide me with the verse?
In Luke 3:23 the bible says that Joseph was the son of Heli. So according to you, are Mary and Joseph siblings?

Son-In-Law is not sibling.

While not listing Mary by name, Luke traces the natural descent of Mary from 'David' to Adam.

Continue from verse 23 to Luke 3v31.

Then at verse 31 at 'Nathan' Luke then begins reckoning the genealogy through Mary while Matthew continues with Jesus foster father's line.

 

[Starsoul]

The OP wasn't about nonbelievers getting to heaven. It was expressing that the concept of unbelievers being tortured forever simply because of nonbelief (and especially in justified nonbelief, in lack of evidence) is cruel, malevolent, and something that a just and merciful god wouldn't do.

That is not entirely true either, you haven't grasped it yet. Although there are punishments for non-believers, but there are for some believers too, so being a believer is not as easy as you are inclined to think.

That said, if the non-believers, were some good reasonable people who are well aware of the concept of goodness( like so many people are) and they PRACTICE that goodness out of love, care for humanity, and have not yet come to know about the truth about God, due to whichever reasons, are pretty much good candidates for heaven as much as the practicing believers.

But , due to lack of practice of sound Islamic teachings, believers are as scared of Hell fire as any other person would be who believes in Hell for a just accountability. But the punishment of those people in hell will be of limited time period, and after serving their sentence ,they will be allowed in heaven, for they believed in one God.

And well, nobody is going to be tortured simply because they lacked evidence against God, whats more unjustified is the thought that a person wont even ask God for Him to bring him/her closer to the signs where they will be able to believe. God is just , so even in your's or anyone's dis-belief, He is accessible to all and encourages His people to seek for as much guidance as they want to, and its quite unfair to oneself if we don't allow ourselves to communicate with God , because that really hampers our 3rd dimension which is a spiritual dimension.

Believers meditate from their spiritual dimension as much as their physical dimension, but when a person who does not believe in a spiritual dimension, and hasn't searched for it in himself, pretty much limits his capabilities within the realms of his physical dimension which go as far as the vision goes, what about beyond? Telescopes/microscopes? well they require for you to see through the naked eye too.

 

[Starsoul]

Who allows satan to do the cruelty?

Your position isn't tenable; you can't simultaneously say God is merciful and just if people are allowed to suffer infinitely for mere nonbelief; especially when they're justified in nonbelief because there's a lack of evidence.

It is Man who allows satan to do the cruelty, by following in his footsteps, Not God. If God had given such powers to satan, the world would have just burnt entirely within the first few years of its creation. Man in his entire life is influenced by only two major forces ; either evil or good.

One has to go through the divine books to have access to that knowledge as to how to really define evil or good, because you will agree that even the creator of a machine writes an operating manual for users to inform them about its proper way of handling and operating, which when avoided leads to chaos to the machine.

'If' man was indeed created by God, he deserves to know the right, appropriate ,and just modes of operating himself, and that knowledge can only come precisely from the Creator.

There is something more cruel than denying God, and that is denying the satan's existence and not willing to understand his pawn in the axis of evil. Although as much evil as he is and his plan against humanity, his devious deceptions are always weak, short sighted and spiritually dead in nature if one follows or unknowingly falls into his trap.

That is why believers stress in the knowledge of divine books, because all humanity suffers out of ignorance to his evilness and out of ignorance of their inner strength against him if they only knew he existed and how he operated, and how could they stop him from taking undue advantage from themselves. The knowledge is buried in us, we just have to unveil it by going through a guidance manual.

Just go through one of my posts that i link here, you might get an idea why believers acknowledge every thing they cannot see, there is an invisible evil hand operating in this world and and an invisible divine hand overpowering that hand, but for divinity to have any affect in our lives, we have to let it in.

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2159996-post3016.html

 

[Starsoul]

And its not ' suffering' that believers refer to it as, it is a just test of the capabilities of a human being. A capable man practices patience in the face of difficulties, while holding a firm belief that the 'suffering' is just a test and will be over soon with a great sense of reveling and relief when it is over, by either making effort to erase the suffering or embracing it and looking ahead instead of feeling bad for oneself.

And a non-believer truly 'suffers' because not only he 'does not' know (or refuses to know) that it is a test of his best of capabilities, he also suffers doubly in the thought of not believing that it IS temporary, is going to be over soon and going to get more than sufficient compensation for it. He thus, prolongs the actual suffering period by refusing to believe .

 

[Starsoul]

And i yet have to find any scientific theory or phenomenon that has yet given any viable explanation for the the prevalence of evil and goodness in this world, or any scientific reason one has emotions and feelings as a human and cannot make machines sensitive enough to feel any emotion.

What is the explanation for why some men want to be cruel and some want to be kind?

 

[Thief]

I'll take this as a sign that you either refuse to discuss the question or can't answer it. I'll let the reader have the benefit of the doubt that it's the first one but I'm pretty sure it's the second.

Edit: After re-reading your post I see that you're actually trying to provide justification with an ontological argument. Fair enough, let's suppose you win through ontology (you don't, I will argue against your first cause argument later but it's beside the point for right now) -- you've only established that "a" god exists. Do you believe that god punishes for believing in the wrong god? How do we know which god is the first mover? Or does believing in any ol' god still get you to heaven, even... say... believing an evil demon is god? Or something like that?

Several options here....would you like to narrow that down a bit?

 

[Meow Mix]

And well, nobody is going to be tortured simply because they lacked evidence against God, whats more unjustified is the thought that a person wont even ask God for Him to bring him/her closer to the signs where they will be able to believe. God is just , so even in your's or anyone's dis-belief, He is accessible to all and encourages His people to seek for as much guidance as they want to, and its quite unfair to oneself if we don't allow ourselves to communicate with God , because that really hampers our 3rd dimension which is a spiritual dimension.

Well, the outcry wasn't against gods that don't throw unbelievers in hell -- the outcry was against god concepts that DO throw unbelievers in hell. That's what we were saying is a cruel and unjust god.

As for seeking evidence for god, I'd say many atheists -- including myself -- are open to the question, so it's interesting that no god has really shown up. It would make sense that if a god wanted us to be with them they would provide us with evidence, but alas -- not so far.

 

[Meow Mix]

Just go through one of my posts that i link here, you might get an idea why believers acknowledge every thing they cannot see, there is an invisible evil hand operating in this world and and an invisible divine hand overpowering that hand, but for divinity to have any affect in our lives, we have to let it in.

Why would God allow Satan to do that?

I don't believe in God yet I'm what believers might call a moral person. Aside from the fact that I bed with another woman, but who cares about that? Why would god care who I love?

 

[Meow Mix]

And i yet have to find any scientific theory or phenomenon that has yet given any viable explanation for the the prevalence of evil and goodness in this world, or any scientific reason one has emotions and feelings as a human and cannot make machines sensitive enough to feel any emotion.

What is the explanation for why some men want to be cruel and some want to be kind?

We haven't even begun to truly experiment with creating sentient machines, so that is something the future will tell...

As for why some people are cruel and others kind, I don't know. It's probably a mix of disposition, how one was raised, what environment one sees, etc. Some people have obvious mental disorders and stuff (some people literally can't tell right from wrong and don't feel guilty about anything), etc. Neurology will maybe eventually find out.

 

[Starsoul]

We haven't even begun to truly experiment with creating sentient machines, so that is something the future will tell...

As for why some people are cruel and others kind, I don't know. It's probably a mix of disposition, how one was raised, what environment one sees, etc. Some people have obvious mental disorders and stuff (some people literally can't tell right from wrong and don't feel guilty about anything), etc. Neurology will maybe eventually find out.

So there is one theory you do believe in, regardless of the fact that it hasn't yet developed enough in itself to give out any evidence based answers ( athiesm? really? without evidence? )...

Or give answers or suggest 'human(self) controlled cure' rather than 'drug induced control' to the emotional turmoils of the past, while there's a huge 'maybe' standing its way, because maybe some people may rather prefer to get de-sensitized towards feeling anything at all like robots than make robots to feel like anything?.. I believe the former to be gaining more popularity...

Not all people who feel like loosing out to their insanity at some point in their lives, actually act it out too. Who is going to decide whats the point of no return, and why hasn't medicine devised any method yet in order to reverse a person's un-stability back to his normal thought /action pattern?

Why are the psychiatric MDs the top on the list of suicides among health care professionals? Inability to deal with patients tumultuous psychiatric behavior on their own ,or the inability to offer any viable solution, or cure to the sufferers of depressive non- believing pessimistic souls....

The psychiatric patients are the minimum in Muslim sates.(Alhamdulilah) Good muslims never really get depressed , they are far sighted , but good muslims only.

So, believers, not only live in a better state of mind in this world, (hence suffer less because of non-practice of self induced mental torture) they are also very hopeful for prosperity in the next world too, thats a winning attitude, don't you think

 

[PolyHedral]

why hasn't medicine devised any method yet in order to reverse a person's un-stability back to his normal thought /action pattern?

Because the human mind is quite possibly the single most complicated machine in all of existence?

( athiesm? really? without evidence? )...

Rejecting a hypothesis doesn't require evidence, and that is all athiesm is.

Good muslims never really get depressed , they are far sighted , but good muslims only.

Well, no true Scotsman gets depressed either...

 

[Starsoul]

Because the human mind is quite possibly the single most complicated machine in all of existence?

And considering the fact that scientists are not illegally using brains from the dead soldiers or dead civilians of wars, how do you suppose it is even possible carrying our experiments on the living human brain? (A good idea would be , that athiests donate for that noble cause, they don't believe in death leading to a better afterlife anyway )

Rejecting a hypothesis doesn't require evidence, and that is all athiesm is.

And rejecting divine scirptures and the divine Creator which are unanimously confirmed by those who believe in them and run in billions of numbers, does not require evidence?

 

[PolyHedral]

how do you suppose it is even possible carrying our experiments on the living brain?

MRI.

And rejecting divine scirptures which are unanimously confirmed by those who believe in them and run in billions of numbers, requires evidence?

No, because argument ad popular is fallacious.

 

[Starsoul]

MRI.

lol MRI is a brain scan, and it is required in instances of medical ailments requiring an MRi, its rays are quite harmful for the human beings to go through random tests of study /research in nature. And the fact how un-comfortable it is being scanned for 1 whole hour while experiencing headaches and being dizzy all the time.


And even if its costs got covered , it only detects physical structures, nothing beyond. We were talking about emotions and beliefs .

No, because argument ad popular is fallacious.

And argument ad not popular, is not fallacious? right.

 

[PolyHedral]

lol MRI is a brain scan, and it is required in instances of medical ailments requiring an MRi, its rays are quite harmful for the human beings to go through random tests of study /research in nature. And the fact how un-comfortable it is being scanned for 1 whole hour while experiencing headaches and being dizzy all the time.

...Yeah, and an MRI is also used to do research into what areas of the brain fire during different activities. Not to mention that they don't release rays at all.

And even if its costs got covered , it only detects physical structures, nothing beyond. We were talking about emotions and beliefs .

And we should believe that these aren't just emergent phenomenon because...?

And argument ad not popular, is not fallacious? right.

"This is the best explanation" is not fallacious compared to "A billion people agree with me", no...

 

[Starsoul]

...Yeah, and an MRI is also used to do research into what areas of the brain fire during different activities. Not to mention that they don't release rays at all.

So a person not accessed to these tests can just go on being miserable because science is supposedly working on it? with no end in sight? with nothing to hang on while it lasts? Thats a tall order, all scientists can see now is a bunch of electrical impulses being fired, a solution to control the mind through pleasant impulses seems as far as eternity...God speed.

And we should believe that these aren't just emergent phenomenon because...?

because they are not equal to, or comparable with ,in their entire substance or feel, spirituality, or outcome, to atheism, or lack of belief in any sort of way, WHICH signifies athiesm to be more emergent & confined within the box of 'lack of evidence based negative thought processes'

"This is the best explanation" is not fallacious compared to "A billion people agree with me", no..

Well, "This is the best applied, tested , proved, tested again and proved again, Explanation, Method and Positive result, by billions of people of faith , over hundreds and thousands of years " stands much heavier than a few neo-scientists contemplating to 'This is the best explanation so far, untill we are proved wrong again, in a few months."