None have Suffered More

[Revoltingest]

It is possible to do that, but at the same time I am aware of and realise that it will eventually be brought up, that this was offered by a Messenger.

So why not disclose it at the very beginning?

Why would that be offered, given the fact many will immediately jump on to what people have faced in this material world!

Regards Tony

You can exercise some influence over how
others respond. The worst isn't inevitable.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Jesus? Sure. The Bab and Baha'u'llah? Yeah. Now tell me how the others suffered to that extreme? Adam? Noah? Abraham? Moses? Zoroaster? Krishna? Buddha? Muhammad?

Yes, I see they have all suffered the rejection of the majority of humanity in one way or another, many have faced tortures and some death.

I will chat with you about this, it is a great meditation. Baha'u'llah has said this, so when I finish work today, I am happy to expand on what I am thinking of.

Baha'u'llah raises this topic often.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Ha! I think you're the one who came out with guns blazing

I think what @Ella S. said is spot on. And I'd add that many so-called prophets brought their suffering on themselves. This is far different than the starving child.

It is thought provoking, so it may be It was indeed me firing the first missile.

The sufferings in the world are not in question, I agree many suffer.

How could it be the Messengers suffer more. I gave an answer to another. I see they take all the suffering upon their own selves. I have the quotes, which will appear in the OP.

Sorry have to work, break finished.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Oh yes, some have already been mentioned, we all suffer at one time or bother, those claiming to talk to god so that makes them special are nothing special.

I will follow up with you later. Could it be that a Messenger is connected to all those that suffer, but then also faces the persecution and rejection of the majority of humanity in various degrees?

We really do not know the power of our mind/spirit and what it is connected to.

Regards Tony

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

It may be hard to discuss this topic if one comes to it with all guns balzing.

Seems more hard to discuss when it begins with the claim that no one has suffered more than people who others just didn't listen to.

 

[F1fan]

I see Messengers have also suffered prejudice and intolerance and were the apex of empathy.

Regards Tony

Should I weep for them?

If they are messengers and are tapped into God’s wisdom, then they’re better able to the average person to cope with intolerance and insults and shame, and whatever else comes their way from other people who doubt their claims of some sort of spiritual enlightenment. Now, if we mortals are supposed to be upset about their suffering, then why not be concerned about the suffering of ordinary people? Do you show any sort of compassion and empathy for them? No. All you should worry about is your religious icons and leaders and dogma and beliefs, very little about actual human beings. do you question the harm your very own religion does to gay people? No. And is it this lack of sincerity and humanism and love that makes me doubt that you are onto anything special in regards to religious message.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I see all the Messengers of God have had to suffer greatly. This OP is about all the Messengers and Prophets that have come from God.

I see their suffering was for us and our neglect of their Messages brings great sadness upon all humanity. They accepted all that suffering, and still do, so we can be released from our chains and bondage to this world.

I also weep for our neglect, as it is their Love that we reject, how can we be forgiven?

I offer a thought from the Baha'i Writings on this topic and ask also for your thoughts.

It has been recorded that during the last years of Bahá'u'lláh's exile in Baghdád, that He spoke many times of the period of trial and hardship that was to come and one such warning revealed to Him was recorded from a dream He had, which is described as follows:

"I saw," He wrote in a Tablet, "the Prophets and the Messengers gather and seat themselves around Me, moaning, weeping and loudly lamenting. Amazed, I inquired of them the reason, whereupon their lamentation and weeping waxed greater, and they said unto me: `We weep for Thee, O Most Great Mystery, O Tabernacle of Immortality!' They wept with such a weeping that I too wept with them. Thereupon the Concourse on high addressed Me saying: `...Erelong shalt Thou behold with Thine own eyes what no Prophet hath beheld.... Be patient, be patient.'... They continued addressing Me the whole night until the approach of dawn." -- Bahá'u'lláh, quoted in Shoghi Effendi, God Passes By, p. 147

I see the above passsage is applicable to all the Prophets and Messengers, as it the following quote.

"..Thou wert created to bear and endure, O Patience of the worlds..." Bahá’u’lláh, The Fire Tablet, Bahá’í Prayers, p. 317

Imagine what they take on for humanity, they bring Love, we offer hate. They bring peace we offer war. They one and all, suffer for us.

So what are your thoughts? Can you imagine any greater suffering than what the Prophets and Messengers have faced?

Regards Tony

Yes, Mohammad suffered so much. Killed a lot of people and took a lot of slaves, too. He certainly wasn't Jesus. Imv.

 

[CG Didymus]

Aside from the usual point that the Buddha was not a messenger or prophet from a deity, in the common use of the word "suffering" the Buddha did not suffer (aside from a period of self-imposed strict asceticism). As to the word meaning the broader dukkha, he supposedly achieved liberation from this at Bodh Gaya - which then set in motion the teaching that we now call Buddhism.

Well, I agree with you and disagree with the Baha'is. The OP claims that...

I see all the Messengers of God have had to suffer greatly. This OP is about all the Messengers and Prophets that have come from God.

I see their suffering was for us and our neglect of their Messages brings great sadness upon all humanity.

For Baha'is, that includes Buddha. Baha'is seem to have a need for the people they claim to be manifestations/messengers to have been rejected and put through great pain and suffering at the hands of the religious leaders of the previous religion.

Now my question to them is... Where, in any religion, does it have the Messiah, the Maitreya, Kalki, the return of Christ or any of the end-time prophets get rejected and suffer? In the NT, Jesus comes as a conquering hero and gets rid of the evil people. I don't know if your form of Buddhism believes in the return of the Buddha as Maitreya, but if it does, what is he expected to do? Get rejected or fix things?

For Baha'is, because their prophet didn't fix things and establish peace, they have to go with that the end-time Messiah was to be rejected and to suffer imprisonment and exile. And maybe so... But, as far as I know, it's not consistent with what the other religions believe.

 

[Exaltist Ethan]

The human condition is suffering. Everybody has suffered. Nobody is perfect 100% of the time. I realize that the 'manifestations' of God had a lot of hurdles to go through in their lifetimes, but as many people already pointed out here there are people who have suffered, at least physically, more severely than the prophets. However, if you were to rephrase it and imply only spiritual suffering, I think most of us would probably agree with you. Although there are plenty of people who get a message from God, as in my opinion everybody is a prophet, but they do not get the support of multiple religions with millions of adherents. How about the hundreds of failed prophets that have existed throughout time? Your Manifestations have a following to back them up, the failed prophets do not. And who is it you to say if these people are prophets or lunatics?

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

I see all the Messengers of God have had to suffer greatly. This OP is about all the Messengers and Prophets that have come from God.

I see their suffering was for us and our neglect of their Messages brings great sadness upon all humanity. They accepted all that suffering, and still do, so we can be released from our chains and bondage to this world.

I also weep for our neglect, as it is their Love that we reject, how can we be forgiven?

I offer a thought from the Baha'i Writings on this topic and ask also for your thoughts.

It has been recorded that during the last years of Bahá'u'lláh's exile in Baghdád, that He spoke many times of the period of trial and hardship that was to come and one such warning revealed to Him was recorded from a dream He had, which is described as follows:

"I saw," He wrote in a Tablet, "the Prophets and the Messengers gather and seat themselves around Me, moaning, weeping and loudly lamenting. Amazed, I inquired of them the reason, whereupon their lamentation and weeping waxed greater, and they said unto me: `We weep for Thee, O Most Great Mystery, O Tabernacle of Immortality!' They wept with such a weeping that I too wept with them. Thereupon the Concourse on high addressed Me saying: `...Erelong shalt Thou behold with Thine own eyes what no Prophet hath beheld.... Be patient, be patient.'... They continued addressing Me the whole night until the approach of dawn." -- Bahá'u'lláh, quoted in Shoghi Effendi, God Passes By, p. 147

I see the above passsage is applicable to all the Prophets and Messengers, as it the following quote.

"..Thou wert created to bear and endure, O Patience of the worlds..." Bahá’u’lláh, The Fire Tablet, Bahá’í Prayers, p. 317

Imagine what they take on for humanity, they bring Love, we offer hate. They bring peace we offer war. They one and all, suffer for us.

So what are your thoughts? Can you imagine any greater suffering than what the Prophets and Messengers have faced?

Regards Tony

It is something of a puzzle to me, that nobody seems able to understand why so-called "Messengers from God" seem to suffer so much. If you look at it head-on, it seems simple enough to me.

Picture this: you live in a world in which everybody you know, and everybody they know, from distances as far as you can imagine, all believe the same things. And you've all believed it since your parents and grandparents, and from their parents and grandparents, and from theirs...back as far as you can remember.

Oh, sure, you meet people who dress differently, or believe differently, from time-to-time, as they bring exotic goods from many -- even hundreds, or gasp! thousands -- of miles away. But though they're exotic and tempting, they soon enough go back to wherever they came from, and take their odd notions, beliefs, languages and behaviours with them, and you and your community carry on as you always have. This is the comfort and safety that you've always known, and you treasure it.

Then, one day, along comes somebody from within your own community who says, "hey, everybody, I've just heard from God! And God says everything you've believed and done is wrong -- he's changed his mind since Stella Nuncius, our prophet, laid it all out. Now, the new rules are..."

Don't you suppose that such an announcement might make a lot of people uncomfortable? Mightn't it even sound like sacrilege? I mean, God is God, right? And why would God suddenly change Her mind?

And so they don't treat this new, self-proclaimed (and they are always self-proclaimed) "messenger" very well. Maybe they drown her, or burn him, or torture them for the edification of the masses.

Ah, but then, those masses...what are they thinking? "Wow, all that suffering, it must be important! Maybe this new messenger was right -- and anyway, none of the old prayers have been working like they used to, so gosh, maybe we better pay attention!"

And do you know what? I think that's how it works. And do you know why so many people fail to get it? It's because they are incapable of taking a look at -- and accepting at face value -- "human nature."

 

[Exaltist Ethan]

"Wow, all that suffering, it must be important!"

I get the feeling that the reason why people take these prophets so seriously is because they suffered, not the other way around. If Baha'u'llah wasn't imprisoned and exiled, the Baha'i Faith might have never been formed, if Jesus never died on the cross, there would have been no sacrificing himself for the goodwill of humanity. It's as if people need to feel guilt and shame in order to believe something that is obviously not true. Christianity teaches original sin of Adam and that Christ died for your sins and the only way to atone that is believing that he is your savior. All it is, is guilt-shaming, and pretty obvious ones at that. I choose not to believe in sin, that God plays favorites yet I don't go down the nihilistic rabbit-hole of atheism.

I have discovered that what you do in life is what makes it meaningful, because in the end humans possess some divine characteristics, as does nature, and eventually when the two positive characteristics of each will cross we'll develop God. A God that won't kill people just because they're homosexuals. Morals adapt and evolve throughout time, but I very much do believe in an absolute morale truth that none of us can comprehend yet. Once our human civilization understands that though, we will be able to create God within ourselves and others.

I believe feeling bad and suffering can be a good thing, because it's only the sad parts that help you enjoy the good things in life. There is a controversial diagnosis of unipolar mania that is not recognized by most doctors because nobody is always manic nor is everybody always depressed. As they say suicide is a permanent solution (not really, but I don't want to explain why right now) to a temporary problem.

Pain and suffering is part of life. It's a part of nature. There's no use hiding from it, or pretending that some people have so much worse than others. I suffer from bipolar, tried to commit suicide multiple times, and the medications I take will eventually kill me. But it's better that I have a shorter life of less suffering than a long life with. I am tired every single waking minute of my life. I can drink energy drinks, dose myself with cups of coffee, and no matter how wired my body is, the medications I take force me to feel a certain way. It's not natural, but when I'm off the medication I'm irritable, agitated and anxious about everything. And when I swing to depressive episodes, I become catatonic and unable to process daily living. If I didn't have the medications I'm on now I'd either be living in a group home, or be dead.

Life is suffering, and life is pleasure, too. Get used to it and stop pretending that any of us is more special than others because God supposedly told them something that was meaningful towards others. That's ultimately what it means to be a prophet anyways - it has nothing to do with the amount of suffering they held.

 

[dybmh]

@TransmutingSoul ,

Your messenger was imprisoned twice, once for 4 months, once for 2 months? And he was exiled from opulence and reduced to poverty. He lost his son to a tragic accident while in exile.

Yes, treatment in the prisons sounds horrifying. But I want to get the details right. Besides 6 months, and exile, and his son's death, what else?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Seems more hard to discuss when it begins with the claim that no one has suffered more than people who others just didn't listen to.

That may be a root cause to some of what they are suffering.

I would offer there will be a lot of people that will not consider what they have suffered, and as such, will see they have not suffered much at all, when we consider other worldy examples.

Regards Tony

 

[Audie]

I've seen starving orphans survive sexual assaults and bodily mutilation only to die of diseases like cancer and leukemia before their 12th birthday.

Any one of them has suffered more than any prophet I've ever heard of. To think that any prophet could actually comprehend the immense suffering that exists in this world is a cruel joke to me. To think their pitiful teachings are a solution seems downright grandiose on their part.

If Jesus actually cared about saving us, then he'd still be going around performing miraculous faith healing. Even that wouldn't be enough, but it would at least be something more than leaving us with pithy sayings.

None has suffered more than those who
fell into the hands of the church in inquisition
times.

For those who may not know, a review
of literature and images may be in order.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Should I weep for them?

You get to choose how you see this, so laugh, cry, choose to have empathy, it is all your choice.

What you said reminds me of a prayer where God is talking to Baha'u'llah and says to Baha'u'llah,

".. We have made abasement the garment of glory, and affliction the adornment of Thy temple, O Pride of the worlds.

Thou seest the hearts are filled with hate, and to overlook is Thine, O Thou Concealer of the sins of the worlds.

When the swords flash, go forward! When the shafts fly, press onward! O Thou Sacrifice of the worlds...."

Then God says to Baha'u'llah,

"...Dost Thou wail, or shall I wail? Rather shall I weep at the fewness of Thy champions, O Thou Who hast caused the wailing of the worlds.."

So God weeps for us, for our poor choices.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Yes, Mohammad suffered so much. Killed a lot of people and took a lot of slaves, too. He certainly wasn't Jesus. Imv.

I think you may be surprised as to how much Muhammad was persecuted. I know the Baha'i Writings talk a lot about what Muhammad had to face.

The Bab also suffered what Jesus faced.

Well worth having a chat about this, always happy to.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

It is something of a puzzle to me, that nobody seems able to understand why so-called "Messengers from God" seem to suffer so much. If you look at it head-on, it seems simple enough to me.

Picture this: you live in a world in which everybody you know, and everybody they know, from distances as far as you can imagine, all believe the same things. And you've all believed it since your parents and grandparents, and from their parents and grandparents, and from theirs...back as far as you can remember.

Oh, sure, you meet people who dress differently, or believe differently, from time-to-time, as they bring exotic goods from many -- even hundreds, or gasp! thousands -- of miles away. But though they're exotic and tempting, they soon enough go back to wherever they came from, and take their odd notions, beliefs, languages and behaviours with them, and you and your community carry on as you always have. This is the comfort and safety that you've always known, and you treasure it.

Then, one day, along comes somebody from within your own community who says, "hey, everybody, I've just heard from God! And God says everything you've believed and done is wrong -- he's changed his mind since Stella Nuncius, our prophet, laid it all out. Now, the new rules are..."

Don't you suppose that such an announcement might make a lot of people uncomfortable? Mightn't it even sound like sacrilege? I mean, God is God, right? And why would God suddenly change Her mind?

And so they don't treat this new, self-proclaimed (and they are always self-proclaimed) "messenger" very well. Maybe they drown her, or burn him, or torture them for the edification of the masses.

Ah, but then, those masses...what are they thinking? "Wow, all that suffering, it must be important! Maybe this new messenger was right -- and anyway, none of the old prayers have been working like they used to, so gosh, maybe we better pay attention!"

And do you know what? I think that's how it works. And do you know why so many people fail to get it? It's because they are incapable of taking a look at -- and accepting at face value -- "human nature."

Now we can consider they know all what will happen, prior to giving the Message.

Now that is courage!

Regards Tony

 

[rational experiences]

I've seen starving orphans survive sexual assaults and bodily mutilation only to die of diseases like cancer and leukemia before their 12th birthday.

Any one of them has suffered more than any prophet I've ever heard of. To think that any prophet could actually comprehend the immense suffering that exists in this world is a cruel joke to me. To think their pitiful teachings are a solution seems downright grandiose on their part.

If Jesus actually cared about saving us, then he'd still be going around performing miraculous faith healing. Even that wouldn't be enough, but it would at least be something more than leaving us with pithy sayings.

Is any baby meant to be the adult?

Yes says everyone.

How isn't that child a prophet a self human in humans presence a proclaimed prophet about humans torturing causing life's harm to other humans?

Or have you all lost your reverence a baby ...all of us first is the holy life who suffers?

As first mother father spiritual only love babies and United family.

Never would have hurt anyone as we are the same people first.

The fallen star said it changed the conscious head mind of humans.

Only the holy mother's teachings were correct...no human should suffer. Babies are all holy humans.

Our brother so badly tormented forgot his owned teaching.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Now we can consider they know all what will happen, prior to giving the Message.

Now that is courage!

Regards Tony

Sorry, I can't quite parse that first sentence...

 

[rational experiences]

Is any baby meant to be the adult?

Yes says everyone.

How isn't that child a prophet a self human in humans presence a proclaimed prophet about humans torturing causing life's harm to other humans?

Or have you all lost your reverence a baby ...all of us first is the holy life who suffers?

As first mother father spiritual only love babies and United family.

Never would have hurt anyone as we are the same people first.

The fallen star said it changed the conscious head mind of humans.

Only the holy mother's teachings were correct...no human should suffer. Babies are all holy humans.

Our brother so badly tormented forgot his owned teaching.

My mother said she knew my family in that moment of vision were safe.

Said her last message her daughter would inherit her life losses was involved in heavens fall.

I thought it a general message in vision to all my sister's. After brain burnt prickled I knew I was warned and involved.

You don't ever believe until it happens.

Never is it just one human.