None have Suffered More

[Vinayaka]

What irks me is the total lack of empathy. One gets the feeling that if a person was crying out for help bleeding in the ditch from a car accident, some people would stop their car and go preach, actually feeling that that is more important than calling an ambulance.

 

[F1fan]

Well I am aware of many events, but also see much has remained unrecorded, as Baha'u'llah did not want to overburden our souls, I

He was foolish to not be aware that teaching anti-gay bigotry is a heavy burden for moral people. There is no way I could be a Baha'i because of my moral sense and tolerance of other for who they are.

A couple to start with. Bahaullah was poisoned by his half brother and the effects of this poisoning remained with him. It can be seen in the Writings of His tablets, the before and after.

Could this explain why he formed bigoted attituded agaist gays, that his mind was affected by poison?

Also he faced the punishment by bastinado - a form of torture that involves being beaten on the soles of the feet with a rod, then you are made to walk, note that He intervened to spare His companions the bastinado and He alone received it and was inflicted by sixty strokes.

He should have not broken the rules that he was punished for. So perhaps in his stress for being punished was to seek a marginalized group that be could bully?

I see these suffering are much more than these events.

I see the same for Abraham and Moses, Jesus and Muhammad, to name a few.

Regards Tony

Moses isn't known to exist as a real person. And Jesus? We aren't sure about him either. So if one of your Messengers is a fictional character what does that say about your beliefs?

 

[F1fan]

Tony, why do you think it works?

For example, Jesus's suffering has failed to alleviate the suffering of Christians. They suffer too (cancer, fatal accidents, death, depression, etc) - no different than non-Christian or even atheists. A few years ago, a bunch of people praying in a Church were shot down inside the Church here in Texas. Clearly, Jesus or his sufferings did not help.

From everything we know, Jesus's pains had no impact at all on his believers.

As I see, this is exactly why many religious views take the clever approach of deferring benefits to the afterlife - as they cannot be verified. This allows religions to stay credible in spite of the struggles of everyday life and the various tragedies that happen around the world (all of which show that we are on our own, with no divine help)

I have asked Christians about this and their reply is that God/Jesus cares about our spiritual life, not our physical well-being. This explains why God allows children to be born with defects or develop fatal diseases. Jesus would say, "Oh, you're in a car accident? Well your soul is saved." I find it absurd that there is an emphasis on after life, not living. But what choice do they have, it's obvious that God is indifferent to suffering and death. The odd thing is why Christians think abortion is immoral when life is not important to God.

No God is known to exist. There is no evidence of any afterlife (sorry NDE believers). But religions have to promote something, and what better product is there than an afterlife? It's like a worthless insurance policy, they take your money and they don't need to guarantee anything. There is no customer service for the dead.

 

[Revoltingest]

I agree that with this thread he has invited a hornet's nest.

Perhaps to complain about the hornets?

 

[shivsomashekhar]

I have asked Christians about this and their reply is that God/Jesus cares about our spiritual life, not our physical well-being. This explains why God allows children to be born with defects or develop fatal diseases. Jesus would say, "Oh, you're in a car accident? Well your soul is saved." I find it absurd that there is an emphasis on after life, not living. But what choice do they have, it's obvious that God is indifferent to suffering and death. The odd thing is why Christians think abortion is immoral when life is not important to God.

No God is known to exist. There is no evidence of any afterlife (sorry NDE believers). But religions have to promote something, and what better product is there than an afterlife? It's like a worthless insurance policy, they take your money and they don't need to guarantee anything. There is no customer service for the dead.

Yes. That is the theist dilemma I have seen with people around me.

On one hand, they all see that their God/gods do not intervene in their lives. But this is hard to accept and so they continue with their prayers and hopes for protection, solutions to problems and miracles.

 

[Trailblazer]

Shoghi Effendi quoted Baha'u'llah as saying this:

"Though aware that they would lead to tribulations, and be the cause of troubles and afflictive trials, He, solely as a token of His loving-kindness and favor, and for the purpose of quickening the dead and of manifesting the Cause of the Lord of all Names and Attributes, and of redeeming all who are on earth, hath closed His eyes to His own well-being and borne that which no other person hath borne or will bear.”
Shoghi Effendi, "The Promised Day is Come", 112

It took some doing to find this. I didn't know where to find it. I looked under "suffer" and that led my finding Adib Taherzadeh quoting this, which led to Shoghi Effendi quoting it.

"He hath closed His eyes to His own well-being and borne that which no other person hath borne or will bear" is true, since what He underwent was different from what any other person goes through, but that does not mean that He has suffered more than any other person.

 

[Trailblazer]

This is one, but not the one I am looking for,

"Meditate a while on the motive and reason which have been responsible for such a persecution. At no time, in no Dispensation, have the Prophets of God escaped the blasphemy of their enemies, the cruelty of their oppressors, the denunciation of the learned of their age, who appeared in the guise of uprightness and piety. Day and night they passed through such agonies as none can ever measure, except the knowledge of the one true God, exalted be His glory."

Bahá’u’lláh, Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 57-58

Notice that the suffering may not been seen and known by us, so it is easily put aside, easy to consider they have not suffered to te extent we see others do in this material world, yet it is this World where suffering is made manifest.

It may be they were created in the knowledge they will suffer in this life, scriptures seem to support this, now back to see if I can locate the other I was thinking of.

Regards Tony

There is also the following passage. This might be the one you were thinking of.
So one a sense the Prophets suffered more than anyone else (no man hath ever experienced or witnessed), but in another sense they did not suffer as much, since they knew there were other worlds besides this world (another life to follow this life). Other humans do not know that, they have to believe it on faith.

“Wert thou to ponder in thine heart the behavior of the Prophets of God thou wouldst assuredly and readily testify that there must needs be other worlds besides this world. The majority of the truly wise and learned have, throughout the ages, as it hath been recorded by the Pen of Glory in the Tablet of Wisdom, borne witness to the truth of that which the holy Writ of God hath revealed. Even the materialists have testified in their writings to the wisdom of these divinely-appointed Messengers, and have regarded the references made by the Prophets to Paradise, to hell fire, to future reward and punishment, to have been actuated by a desire to educate and uplift the souls of men. Consider, therefore, how the generality of mankind, whatever their beliefs or theories, have recognized the excellence, and admitted the superiority, of these Prophets of God. These Gems of Detachment are acclaimed by some as the embodiments of wisdom, while others believe them to be the mouthpiece of God Himself. How could such Souls have consented to surrender themselves unto their enemies if they believed all the worlds of God to have been reduced to this earthly life? Would they have willingly suffered such afflictions and torments as no man hath ever experienced or witnessed?”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 157-158

 

[Secret Chief]

With so many supernatural, mythical, or legendary elements what can we conclude on the question on whether He suffered or not?

There is no evidence the Buddha suffered greater than others. Supernatural, mythical, legendary elements are irrelevant to this. He is generally accepted as simply being a true historical figure - a human that was born, who lived, who taught and died peacefully.

But that's all a bit academic really, apropos the OP, given that he was not a messenger of any deity.

 

[CG Didymus]

all the Messengers have "sustained the weight of all calamities".

Okay, then tell me about them. Still waiting on the pain and suffering that Buddha endured.

I see the same for Abraham and Moses, Jesus and Muhammad, to name a few.

Yeah, we all know about Jesus. Now tell me about the others. Were they chained, poisoned and had their feet beaten? If not, then your guy wins. He suffered the most. But...

Moses isn't known to exist as a real person. And Jesus? We aren't sure about him either. So if one of your Messengers is a fictional character what does that say about your beliefs?

What about this? Does anyone know for sure about the sufferings of the Bible characters? I doubt very much that Baha'is take the Biblical accounts of the lives of Adam, Noah, Abraham and Moses literally. So, Baha'is, tell me about how they suffered?

But... does it matter? We all know how Christians say that Jesus bore the sins of the world and suffered being beaten and having a crown of thorns placed on his head, then carrying the cross up the hill, then being nailed to the cross... oh the agony... all for us. So, how are the Baha'is going to top that? The Baha'is say "all" the manifestations suffered like this for the sake of mankind, but what's important is that their prophets, the Bab and Baha'u'llah, suffered at least to a degree equal to Jesus and maybe even greater.

And why would anyone allow themselves to be put through such agony? Not for themselves, but because they are "saviors" sent from God. I think, ultimately, that's why this is so important to Baha'is. No one would put themselves through the pain and suffering unless they were doing it for all of us... To show the world how detached they are from their own sufferings... To show us that indeed, they must be from God. But... is that a good reason to believe them? What else do they got? Unfortunately, the Baha'i teachings are failing to impress very many people. So maybe the ordeals he endured will get people to believe in him?

 

[Trailblazer]

It is the same with a Manifestation of God who is sent to live among men. There is a vast contrast between the world of man and the world of the Manifestation of God. The former is limited and full of imperfections while the latter is the realm of perfections far exalted above the comprehension of human beings. Coming from such a realm, possessing all the Divine virtues and embodying God's attributes, these exalted Beings descend into this world and become prisoners among human beings. Man's ignorance, his cruelty, his ungodliness, his selfishness, his insincerity and all his sins and shortcomings act as tools of torture inflicting painful wounds upon the soul of the Manifestation of God who has no alternative but to bear them in silence with resignation and submissiveness. One act of unfaithfulness -- even a glance betraying the insincerity of the individual or an unworthy thought emanating from his mind -- is as painful torture to Him.
(Adib Taherzadeh, The Revelation of Baha'u'llah v 3, p. 233)

Thanks Duane. I knew I could count upon you. Now you have put Their sufferings in some kind of context.

It was not the physical imprisonment that brought the most suffering to Baha'u'llah. It was the conduct of His followers. He expected a very high standard of behavior from His followers. An example of that kind of suffering Baha'u'llah endured when His followers fell short immediately came to mind.

“My captivity can bring on Me no shame. Nay, by My life, it conferreth on Me glory. That which can make Me ashamed is the conduct of such of My followers as profess to love Me, yet in fact follow the Evil One. They, indeed, are of the lost.

When the time set for this Revelation was fulfilled, and He Who is the Day Star of the world appeared in ‘Iráq, He bade His followers observe that which would sanctify them from all earthly defilements. Some preferred to follow the desires of a corrupt inclination, while others walked in the way of righteousness and truth, and were rightly guided.

Say: He is not to be numbered with the people of Bahá who followeth his mundane desires, or fixeth his heart on things of the earth. He is My true follower who, if he come to a valley of pure gold, will pass straight through it aloof as a cloud, and will neither turn back, nor pause. Such a man is, assuredly, of Me. From his garment the Concourse on high can inhale the fragrance of sanctity…. And if he met the fairest and most comely of women, he would not feel his heart seduced by the least shadow of desire for her beauty. Such an one, indeed, is the creation of spotless chastity. Thus instructeth you the Pen of the Ancient of Days, as bidden by your Lord, the Almighty, the All-Bountiful.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 117-118

 

[CG Didymus]

There is no evidence the Buddha suffered greater than others. Supernatural, mythical, legendary elements are irrelevant to this. He is generally accepted as simply being a true historical figure - a human that was born, who lived, who taught and died peacefully.

But that's all a bit academic really, apropos the OP, given that he was not a messenger of any deity.

If Buddha is not a manifestation/messenger of God, then the whole of the Baha'i Faith crumbles. But there are so many "if'y" things about their beliefs. But this would be catastrophic. They need Buddha and Buddhism to be part of their progression of true, revealed, religions from God. They cannot and will not allow Buddhism not to be exactly what they claim it to be. Which is a religion from the one true God. The same God that all the Abrahamic religions believe in. That Buddha was indeed a manifestation of that God and taught about that God. But didn't teach about reincarnation. That is a misinterpretation on the part of his followers.

Now... what do we really know about Buddha and his teachings? Well, we know for sure what they believe now. And what do Baha'is believe about it?

Abdu’l-Bahá said: The real teaching of Buddha is the same as the teaching of Jesus Christ. The teachings of all the Prophets are the same in character. Now men have changed the teaching. If you look at the present practice of the Buddhist religion, you will see that there is little of the Reality left. Many worship idols although their teaching forbids it. … The teaching of Buddha was like a young and beautiful child, and now it has become as an old and decrepit man. Like the aged man it cannot see, it cannot hear, it cannot remember anything. Why go so far back? Consider the laws of the Old Testament: the Jews do not follow Moses as their example nor keep his commands. So it is with many other religions.” (Abdu’l-Baha, Abdu’l-Baha in London, p. 63)
​

Here in a Baha'i article about Buddhism it says, "Buddhist texts that have come down to us do not necessarily represent the exact words or teachings of the Buddha " In that article it talks about the story of the Buddha, but nowhere does it say anything about his pain and suffering? So, the Scriptures aren't accurate, and Buddhists don't practice the true teachings.

So, where are Baha'i getting this stuff about how the Buddha went through all this pain and suffering? Why not just say their guy, Baha'u'llah, went through all this pain and suffering. Why try to bring in all the people they consider to be manifestations of their God? I think it is important to them to show the continuity of "manifestations" and religions to support their belief in "progressive" revelation. It helps build their case for the "oneness" of all religions... that they all came from one source, the God they believe in. Which is fine for them. But can they support their claims?

 

[Secret Chief]

But can they support their claims?

No.

I can totally understand why a Muslim or a Christian (for example) would disagree with the thrust of Buddhism. I get that. If you think XYZ then you are going to reject NotXYZ. But Bahai is irksome because it co-opts and disparages the Dharma in the service of its own agenda, ignoring what 535 million Buddhists say about their own teachings.

 

[Trailblazer]

It's not slander when it is true. You Baha'i admit to accepting the bigotry of Baha'u'llah, and some even say you Baha'i have no choice, you can't oppose immoral doctrines in your religion. So to be a Baha'i means to accept bigotry, and i don't understand that.

Baha'i laws that prohibit homosexual behaviors (for Baha'is only) are not bigotry at all, not in ANY sense of the word.

It is only bigotry in your opinion. That does not mean it IS bigotry.
It is only immoral in your opinion. That does not mean it IS immoral.
All this is only a matter of personal opinion.

That is why it is slander to keep insisting that Baha'is accept bigotry.

Bigotry: obstinate or unreasonable attachment to a belief, opinion, or faction; in particular, prejudice against a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular group.
bigotry means - Google Search

Read the definition above. Baha'is are not prejudiced against homosexuals just because there is a Baha'i law that prohibits homosexual behaviors for Baha'is, not any more than we are prejudiced against couples who have sex out of wedlock just because the Baha'i laws prohibit such behavior for Baha'is. The Baha'i Faith has a very high standard for sexual behavior for Baha'is only but we are not expecting others to follow our standards.

The Baha'i certainly avoid this topic, probably because they recognize it is a serious moral flaw in their Messenger. Can this bigotry be defended morally? No. All the Baha'i can say is that your Messenger says so.

I do not avoid it because I know that the Laws put forth by Baha'u'llah are the epitome of morality. In fact, one reason I am so attracted to the Baha'i Faith is because of those laws, as I believe they are the last hope for a humanity that is thoroughly entrenched in immoral sexual behavior. What this has done to society sickens me to no end.

Keep calling me a bigot if you want to. Sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me, especially because I know they are not true.

If I wanted to stoop to your level I could call you a bigot, since you have an obstinate or unreasonable attachment to the belief that homosexuality is moral and acceptable, and you have a prejudice against the Baha'is on the basis of their membership in the Baha'i Faith, since we disagree with what you believe about homosexuality.

 

[Trailblazer]

If Buddha is not a manifestation/messenger of God, then the whole of the Baha'i Faith crumbles.

I have never heard anything so absurd. Baha'u'llah never even wrote about Buddha and the Baha'i Writings do not say that Buddha was manifestation/messenger of God. This is a commonly accepted Baha'i belief, but we all know how humans can add their own understandings to scriptures.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Nope, logistically that's just a no no

OK that is how you see it, I wish you always well and happy, free of any suffering.

From what I have found, life is more than the material senses and I personally see the sufferings of many people also transcends the material, yet are they only part of this reality?

I have no set ideas on this topic, just a lot to explore and understand for my own self.

I do imagine all the prayers of suffering and anguish that are asked of God, imagine if you could hear them all!

Regards Tony

 

[Secret Chief]

I have never heard anything so absurd. Baha'u'llah never even wrote about Buddha and the Baha'i Writings do not say that Buddha was manifestation/messenger of God.

From the official website:

"Throughout history, God has sent to humanity a series of divine Educators—known as Manifestations of God —whose teachings have provided the basis for the advancement of civilization. These Manifestations have included Abraham, Krishna, Zoroaster, Moses, Buddha, Jesus, and Muḥammad. Bahá’u’lláh, the latest of these Messengers, explained that the religions of the world come from the same Source and are in essence successive chapters of one religion from God."
- The Baháʼí Faith - Home

we all know how humans can add their own understandings to scriptures.

So maybe the website was written by humans?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

You're dismissing this person's story in favour of stating your message again. How sad.

It would be great if you are here to discuss the topic, if not, thank you for calling by.

Your reply, may also be an indication of what one cause of suffering may take the form of.

Who is suffering from the comment is also an interesting thought, the one that gave it, or the one that receives it! Or could it be the Messenger who suffers this exchange, as all that should result from that Message is unity of purpose, not arguing.

Mmmmmm Such quandaries!

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

Yes. That is the theist dilemma I have seen with people around me.

On one hand, they all see that their God/gods do not intervene in their lives. But this is hard to accept and so they continue with their prayers and hopes for protection, solutions to problems and miracles.

Some do believe God intervenes. When they escape a bad situation unscathed, they say, "Thank God, he protected me from getting hurt." But then when things go bad, like their child or parent dies they say, "Oh well, it was God's will. He knows best and I know will make something good out it." God was involved, but no matter what happens, he wins. He can't lose.

 

[CG Didymus]

No.

I can totally understand why a Muslim or a Christian (for example) would disagree with the thrust of Buddhism. I get that. If you think XYZ then you are going to reject NotXYZ. But Bahai is irksome because it co-opts and disparages the Dharma in the sevice of its own agenda, ignoring what 535 million Buddhists say about their own teachings.

Yes, and their agenda is to unite the whole world. They need for people in all the other religions to see the Baha'is as accepting their religions, but also showing a need for them to leave their old religion and accept this new religion, the Baha'i Faith.

They can't be everything to everybody, so they need to downplay the differences in each religion... usually by saying that those differences don't really exist... They are based on false interpretations. But it's hard to unite people and get them to accept the Baha'i Faith when they are telling the people that essentially, their old beliefs, are wrong.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Tony, why do you think it works?

For example, Jesus's suffering has failed to alleviate the suffering of Christians. They suffer too (cancer, fatal accidents, death, depression, etc) - no different than non-Christian or even atheists. A few years ago, a bunch of people praying in a Church were shot down inside the Church here in Texas. Clearly, Jesus or his sufferings did not help.

From everything we know, Jesus's pains had no impact at all on his believers.

As I see, this is exactly why many religious views take the clever approach of deferring benefits to the afterlife - as they cannot be verified. This allows religions to stay credible in spite of the struggles of everyday life and the various tragedies that happen around the world (all of which show that we are on our own, with no divine help)

Thanks for responding. How do you see suffering?

I see it works as an example, that suffering is part of this world and that in one way or many ways, we will have to face suffering.

It works, I see, as a fulcrum for our spiritual capacity and understanding. We also must consider that suffering has many levels and many tangents.

I see Jesus took on all that suffering as an example. It indicates to us, that no matter what, God is Love and there is meaning in what we suffer.

So I see that when one says they beleive that does not mean they will suffer less, it may be that they will face more challenges. O see yhe Bible, Quran and Baha'i Writings offer this will be the case.

Baha'u'llah quotes the Quran here, "Even as He hath revealed: ‘Do men think when they say “We believe” they shall be let alone and not be put to proof?’" Bahá’u’lláh, Kitáb-i-Íqán, pp. 8-9

So the most pure gold is the gold that has been most refined, thus it is logical the Messengers are the most refined in this world.

"Not until man is tried doth the pure gold distinctly separate from the dross. Torment is the fire of test wherein the pure gold shineth resplendently and the impurity is burned and blackened. At present thou art, praise be to God, firm and steadfast in tests and trials and art not shaken by them...." ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Selections from the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, p. 120

How is it given in your faith, I am assuming the process of reincarnation?

Regards Tony