None have Suffered More

[CG Didymus]

From the official website:

"Throughout history, God has sent to humanity a series of divine Educators—known as Manifestations of God —whose teachings have provided the basis for the advancement of civilization. These Manifestations have included Abraham, Krishna, Zoroaster, Moses, Buddha, Jesus, and Muḥammad. Bahá’u’lláh, the latest of these Messengers, explained that the religions of the world come from the same Source and are in essence successive chapters of one religion from God."
- The Baháʼí Faith - Home

So maybe the website was written by humans?

Baha'is have called me worse. For a Baha'i to say that Buddha isn't a manifestation of God is so very strange. He is always included in their progression of manifestations of God. Here's some more quotes....

The Buddha was a Manifestation of God, like Christ, but His followers do not possess His authentic writings.

Shoghi Effendi, The Compilation of Compilations vol. I, p. 21
There are a very few references made to Buddha, which you have evidently seen. In "God Passes By" you will find that Bahá’u’lláh is the return of the Fifth Buddha, etc., and this is all the information the Guardian has, on this subject of Bahá’u’lláh's fulfilling Buddhistic prophecies, at present.

Shoghi Effendi, The Compilation of Compilations vol. I, p. 21​

Here's an article about the Baha'i Faith and Buddhism...

Buddhism is acknowledged in the Bahá'í writings as one of the great world religions and its founder, the Buddha, is accorded a rank and station equal to that of all of the founders of the great world religions.

The relationship between the Bahá'í Faith and Buddhism can be described in terms of a sharing of religious concepts and of encounters between individuals and communities. The student of the Bahá'í Faith and Buddhism is at first struck by the scarcity of Bahá'í expositions on Buddhist themes. In contrast to Christian and Muslim themes which are taken up and elaborated in detail by the founder himself, the Bahá'í writings do not deal explicitly with the complex philosophical arguments which concern many Buddhists.​

And then it says...

Moreover, there are no surviving documents by the Bab or Bahá'u'lláh referring directly to Buddhism.
​

So, the Bab and Baha'u'llah cared more about Islam and Christianity. Almost as if that's all they knew and cared about. But if they are the fulfillment and the supposed return of Buddha, then they should have at least mention him once or twice.

He alone is meant by the prophecy attributed to Gautama Buddha Himself, that "a Buddha named Maitreye, the Buddha of universal fellowship" should, in the fullness of time, arise and reveal "His boundless glory."
Shoghi Effendi, God Passes By, p. 94-95
​

So, to repeat, if the Buddha didn't suffer like the Baha'i prophet, then what? Are Baha'is wrong? I'd say, of course they are. But does it matter to them? No. They always have a way to explain things away.

 

[CG Didymus]

So the most pure gold is the gold that has been most refined, thus it is logical the Messengers are the most refined in this world.

Hmmm? Are you saying they had impurities that needed to be separated out? I'd imagine, assuming they are for real, they were made pure.

"Not until man is tried doth the pure gold distinctly separate from the dross. Torment is the fire of test wherein the pure gold shineth resplendently and the impurity is burned and blackened. At present thou art, praise be to God, firm and steadfast in tests and trials and art not shaken by them...." ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Selections from the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, p. 120

But we, on the other hand, are made impure... with a need to be purified and tested. But... was our soul/spirit pure? If so, why would God put a pure soul into an impure body? And then, when that impure body dies, judge the soul? Or... God made the soul impure and stuck it in a physical body and then tested that soul. What do you think? One of those, or do you got something different?

 

[ChristineM]

OK that is how you see it, I wish you always well and happy, free of any suffering.

From what I have found, life is more than the material senses and I personally see the sufferings of many people also transcends the material, yet are they only part of this reality?

I have no set ideas on this topic, just a lot to explore and understand for my own self.

I do imagine all the prayers of suffering and anguish that are asked of God, imagine if you could hear them all!

Regards Tony

So how do you see "Messenger is connected to all those that suffer,"

I've suffered to the point of considering suicide to escape the constant pain, trust me no messenger was involved.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Quite right, it does not have to be offensive. You could have just left it at "Great is their suffering". That would have been far better, if not still debatable. But no, instead you went full-bore with the "No one has ever suffered like my prophet." As exampled, 11 million people in the 1940's would like a very strong word with you.

If you read the OP, it says it is applicable to all the Prophets, but I think I found the quote I based the OP on, Baha'u'llah quoted Muhammad, and offered this.

"...For this reason did Muḥammad cry out: “No Prophet of God hath suffered such harm as I have suffered.” And in the Qur’án are recorded all the calumnies and reproaches uttered against Him, as well as all the afflictions which He suffered. Refer ye thereunto, that haply ye may be informed of that which hath befallen His Revelation. So grievous was His plight, that for a time all ceased to hold intercourse with Him and His companions. Whoever associated with Him fell a victim to the relentless cruelty of His enemies.…"

The Bible offers

Acts 3:18 "But the things which God announced beforehand by the mouth of all the prophets, that His Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled"

To me Christ is all the Messengers and it has been fulfilled they all suffered, how much?

Well, I see this OT passage supports the OP

Isaiah 53:3-12 "He was despised and forsaken of men, A man of sorrows and acquainted with grief; And like one from whom men hide their face He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.
Surely our griefs He Himself bore, And our sorrows He carried; Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken, Smitten of God, and afflicted.
But He was pierced through for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him, And by His scourging we are healed."

I see that passage is the fate of the Messengers, they take on all the suffering of humanity.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Hmmm? Are you saying they had impurities that needed to be separated out? I'd imagine, assuming they are for real, they were made pure.

Do not forget they are also born into the human condition, with the eternal mind.

In the end we are not able determine what they suffered.

But from my understanding of the Holy scriptures they gave their lives for all of us, and as such, took on the suffering we face with our choices.

I have no firm idea on how all this unfolds, I think it is a good subject to understand our own place in this world and find a focus as to what suffering really is!

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

What irks me is the total lack of empathy. One gets the feeling that if a person was crying out for help bleeding in the ditch from a car accident, some people would stop their car and go preach, actually feeling that that is more important than calling an ambulance.

One has to be aware why Baha'u'llah brought up these sufferings, it was because of His empathy for others, in asking for justice for the sufferings faced, Baha'u'llah was asking for justice and empathy for all those that do suffer in this world.

The please are not based in self, they are based in the Universal mind..

Baha'u'llah willingly accepted all what he faced, so that humanity could be free of the Cause of suffering.

It is a good subject to pursue, there are reasons and logical explanations behind it all.

Regards Tony

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

We're all tired of responding to your slander.

Both of you (Transmuting Soul) are incredibly tone deaf and lacking in self-awareness. You've got several very decent, intelligent, and well-educated people all telling you the same thing, and you see it as slander.

Baha'i laws that prohibit homosexual behaviors (for Baha'is only) are not bigotry at all, not in ANY sense of the word.

Here's more. You seem to not care that only other Baha'is agree with you. Are you unaware of that or just indifferent that your words not only are rejected, but reinforce the opinion that that doctrine is destructive based in how it makes Baha'i say things like you just did, which a half dozen other Baha'i also said in a previous thread?

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

If you read the OP, it says it is applicable to all the Prophets

That does not make it better.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

There is also the following passage. This might be the one you were thinking of.
So one a sense the Prophets suffered more than anyone else (no man hath ever experienced or witnessed), but in another sense they did not suffer as much, since they knew there were other worlds besides this world (another life to follow this life). Other humans do not know that, they have to believe it on faith.

“Wert thou to ponder in thine heart the behavior of the Prophets of God thou wouldst assuredly and readily testify that there must needs be other worlds besides this world. The majority of the truly wise and learned have, throughout the ages, as it hath been recorded by the Pen of Glory in the Tablet of Wisdom, borne witness to the truth of that which the holy Writ of God hath revealed. Even the materialists have testified in their writings to the wisdom of these divinely-appointed Messengers, and have regarded the references made by the Prophets to Paradise, to hell fire, to future reward and punishment, to have been actuated by a desire to educate and uplift the souls of men. Consider, therefore, how the generality of mankind, whatever their beliefs or theories, have recognized the excellence, and admitted the superiority, of these Prophets of God. These Gems of Detachment are acclaimed by some as the embodiments of wisdom, while others believe them to be the mouthpiece of God Himself. How could such Souls have consented to surrender themselves unto their enemies if they believed all the worlds of God to have been reduced to this earthly life? Would they have willingly suffered such afflictions and torments as no man hath ever experienced or witnessed?”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 157-158

Yes this is this type of quote that prompted the OP.

I do not know how that suffering is born by them. I am not able to say they they did not suffer because of their station of the Holy Spirit. My thoughts would be how can they have empathy, if they have not experienced what it is to suffer, on all levels possible?

I am actually finding many more passages on this now, it is helping me think about it more deeply. I like these types of discussions as it allows us to explore our own small individual reality.

It is not hard to see why the Messengers go solo for a while before they give the Message. Baha'u'llah was 2 years in solitude before making the Message public, Moses and Jesus went solo for 40 days.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

That does not make it better.

Suffering can be seen in that light.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Yeah, we all know about Jesus. Now tell me about the others. Were they chained, poisoned and had their feet beaten? If not, then your guy wins. He suffered the most. But...

My thoughts are not based in the material events. I am looking into our consciousness.

I see our consciousness is born from our nature and nurture and our willingness to seek the spiritual reality, all this becomes important as to our understanding of what is suffering.

Regards Tony

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

Suffering can be seen in that light.

There is no light that makes your statement better, and that's not what your getting. Reference examples I've given that far exceed the so-called "suffering" of your prophets.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So how do you see "Messenger is connected to all those that suffer,"

I've suffered to the point of considering suicide to escape the constant pain, trust me no messenger was involved.

I see the connection is our consciousness. I personally see they know of and hear it all, they are aware of all our thoughts. So when we are wanting to escape that constant pain, I see they were one and all there with us. I offer many people face these times.

I see we mostly remain unaware of what is behind all our decisions, each moment allows us to connect to the only source that can release us from our complexities, or our decision moves us on to other opportunities to do just that.

It is interesting to note, from a faith perspective, that ordeals, tests and suffering are for growth, and if we ever enter a time of smooth sailing, then we have become stagnant, which is equivalent to decay.

Regards Tony

 

[ChristineM]

I see the connection is our consciousness. I personally see they know of and hear it all, they are aware of all our thoughts. So when we are wanting to escape that constant pain, I see they were one and all there with us. I offer many people face these times.

I see we mostly remain unaware of what is behind all our decisions, each moment allows us to connect to the only source that can release us from our complexities, or our decision moves us on to other opportunities to do just that.

It is interesting to note, from a faith perspective, that ordeals, tests and suffering are for growth, and if we ever enter a time of smooth sailing, then we have become stagnant, which is equivalent to decay.

Regards Tony

I see no such thing, this sort of belief without any evidence whatsoever is basically woo. Guesswork and woffle to massage the ego.

Provide some evidence of your claim and I'll review it, untill then, be happy with your opinion.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I see no such thing, this sort of belief without any evidence whatsoever is basically woo. Guesswork and woffle to massage the ego.

Provide some evidence of your claim and I'll review it, untill then, be happy with your opinion.

I could share my dreams in the times I also faced when I no longer wished to be here, when my heart called out to the source of my being.

Yet I suspect, for others that will not be proof.

I see one has to look inside, look back at those times and the choices we made. Why did we choose to still be here, where are we going to?

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

There is no light that makes your statement better, and that's not what your getting. Reference examples I've given that far exceed the so-called "suffering" of your prophets.

What can you imagine is the highest level of suffering? Consider, it will be limited to your understanding of suffering, others will be alble o add to your worse case scenario, etc etc for an infinite possibility. Also consider material events, that lead to mental suffering can also reverberate through generations.

What if a Messenger suffers all that is possible, yet that mind is eternal?

Consider a soldier suffering an amputation. The missing limb resulted in the suffering of pain, yet the war may have greater ramifications as to the level of suffering. Many people go beyond suffering the loss of limbs, they cope and move on yet mental suffering of what was seen in the war, is always with them.

Regards Tony

 

[Vinayaka]

No.

I can totally understand why a Muslim or a Christian (for example) would disagree with the thrust of Buddhism. I get that. If you think XYZ then you are going to reject NotXYZ. But Bahai is irksome because it co-opts and disparages the Dharma in the service of its own agenda, ignoring what 535 million Buddhists say about their own teachings.

So too with every religion except Baha'i. We Hindus have nearly a billion. They say Krishna was a 'manifestation' when no Hindu believes that, and ignore all other sects of Hinduism entirely. Little wonder the hornets are flying.

 

[Vinayaka]

It would be great if you are here to discuss the topic, if not, thank you for calling by.

/QUOTE]
AFAIK, everyone here is discussing this topic. If you don't want discussion, post it in the Baha'i DIR, which can then be the echo chamber you seek. Or another option - just don't post insulting stuff. I don't know what you expected. Everyone to agree with you on this?

 

[ChristineM]

I could share my dreams in the times I also faced when I no longer wished to be here, when my heart called out to the source of my being.

Yet I suspect, for others that will not be proof.

I see one has to look inside, look back at those times and the choices we made. Why did we choose to still be here, where are we going to?

Regards Tony

Dreams are not evidence so no evidence then thanks

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

What can you imagine is the highest level of suffering?

You're still not getting it. By your title and content of this thread, you are putting the experiences of your prophets being ignored above that of those victims of the Holocaust. Justify that, if you can.