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None of it is true - Does this bother anyone?

slave2six

Substitious
The Creation story puts Adam and Eve at anywhere from 6,000 to 10,000 years ago (particularly when we take into account the details about Adam's age and the age of those after him).

All of the scientific evidence points to the conclusion that homo sapiens have been around for some 200,000 years, this in stark contrast to the Garden of Eden story. Indeed, all the physical evidence supports evolution on every level whether biological, geological, or astronomical. The only rational conclusion is that the Adam and Eve story is, well, a story.

And this is the first problem: If it is just a story then there never was a singular event called "the fall of man" and therefore all this business of killing bulls or a virgin human sacrifice on a cross is entirely baseless.

The second problem is this: If we assume that the Garden/fall of man story is true, the conclusion that we draw is that the God of the Bible is not, in fact, very good at all. There is not one human being who would kick his/her toddler child out of the house for disobeying them (certainly not on a first offense!) or (if they had the power) alter that child's core being so that every one of her descendants would be born "in sin" and under a curse. This would be akin to a prisoner conceiving a child during a conjugal visit and then the powers that be taking steps to ensure that the child was raised in prison since the parent had committed an offense.

Moreover, the very nature of forgiveness is such that it does not require sacrifice. If your child steals from you, you don't tell them that they have to sacrifice Rover before they can be at peace with you. And if your neighbor offends you, you do not reconcile to them by allowing them to kill your infant son. Either you forgive or you don't.

The entire thing is not only irrational but if any one of us behaved in a similar fashion, we'd be imprisoned. And rightly so.

Therefore, on the one hand the physical universe screams that the Bible story is not true and on the other hand everything that we understand about the words "good" and "loving" scream that the Bible story cannot be the story of a loving God. How then can anyone actually believe this stuff?
 

challupa

Well-Known Member
I agree with you in some ways. I too have a great deal of trouble with the existence of the Bible and other so called holy books. I think they are very misleading and can be the cause of alot of suffering and harm. On the other hand I do believe we have a creator and these stories totally distort how I see that creator. Storm talks about metaphors, and they likely are, but in many ways this is still dangerous because having these books written the way they are leaves the potential high for people to take what is written there literally. That is what I have a problem with because when they do that, it becomes dangerous imo.
 

Caladan

Agnostic Pantheist
None of it is true - Does this bother anyone?
From the high seat of the 21st century most of us understand that its not 'true', equally relevant is that some of these allegorical and ideological stories were not seen as 'true' by people 'in those days', but were seen as an ideological reflection, obviously with some cases more so than others.

there are more than a few ways of reading scriptures. many of these ways do not involve a literal interpretation, but a more sophisticated approach, one that often demands further study and research into the fields of historiography, archaeology, epigraphy, and general ancient near eastern studies.
In this regard, for many modern people the concept of 'None of it is true' is a no-brainer.
 

Francis

UBER-Christian
Well, it does bother me, actually. i used to be cool with the whole thing about the Old Testament being some stories and some real. But then, i found out that the gospel;s weren't chronologically correct, and that shook me a little. I still sometimes have bad doubts... :p Peace!
 

Kilgore Trout

Misanthropic Humanist
When you're willing to believe something for which no objective evidence exists, where do draw the line?

Everything in the bible's true? Great, I'm a believer!

Well, some of it's true, and some isn't. Great, I'm a believer!

Well, the people who wrote it didn't think it was true, but we're going to base a religion on it anyway. Great, I'm a believer!

You see - when it comes to faith, the veracity of an event doesn't really matter.
 

Caladan

Agnostic Pantheist
When you're willing to believe something for which no objective evidence exists, where do draw the line?

Everything in the bible's true? Great, I'm a believer!

Well, some of it's true, and some isn't. Great, I'm a believer!

Well, the people who wrote it didn't think it was true, but we're going to base a religion on it anyway. Great, I'm a believer!

You see - when it comes to faith, the veracity of an event doesn't really matter.
Not anyone who studies the scriptures or any field of study which involves scriptural research is religious by default. in fact many of the leading scriptural historiographs are secular.

further more, not all religious phenomena are identical. in this regard the 'veracity' most certainly matters.
 

ChristineES

Tiggerism
Premium Member
This again? I think there have been about 100 threads talking about Adam and Eve. Most of us believe that the Creation Story- Adam and Eve and the rest is symbolic. There are some people who take it literally, but not most. And sacrifice in the Bible appeared to be a feast- The people did eat the lambs and bulls they sacrificed.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
This again? I think there have been about 100 threads talking about Adam and Eve. Most of us believe that the Creation Story- Adam and Eve and the rest is symbolic. There are some people who take it literally, but not most. And sacrifice in the Bible appeared to be a feast- The people did eat the lambs and bulls they sacrificed.
We also eat and drink the Body and Blood of Christ...
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
Moreover,
the very nature of forgiveness is such that it does not require sacrifice
. Neither is sacrifice required anymore - after Jesus Christ was sacrificed for that particular purpose - so that our sins might be forgiven.


Therefore, on the one hand the physical universe screams that the Bible story is not true
Does it ?

and on the other hand everything that we understand about the words "good" and "loving" scream that the Bible story cannot be the story of a loving God. How then can anyone actually believe this stuff?


well, with jesus Christ came the second covenant - (the forgiveness bit) and although you may not want to believe in a God, there are plenty of people who do - and, I belive in that "stuff"..er...if that's OK with you ?:rolleyes:
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
The Creation story puts Adam and Eve at anywhere from 6,000 to 10,000 years ago (particularly when we take into account the details about Adam's age and the age of those after him).

If you go by some interpretations.

All of the scientific evidence points to the conclusion that homo sapiens have been around for some 200,000 years, this in stark contrast to the Garden of Eden story. Indeed, all the physical evidence supports evolution on every level whether biological, geological, or astronomical. The only rational conclusion is that the Adam and Eve story is, well, a story.

An allegory.

And this is the first problem:
If it is just a story then there never was a singular event called "the fall of man" and therefore all this business of killing bulls or a virgin human sacrifice on a cross is entirely baseless.

No. sacrifices were indeed preformed long ago. It wasn't baseless to them.

The second problem is this:
If we assume that the Garden/fall of man story is true, the conclusion that we draw is that the God of the Bible is not, in fact, very good at all. There is not one human being who would kick his/her toddler child out of the house for disobeying them (certainly not on a first offense!) or (if they had the power) alter that child's core being so that every one of her descendants would be born "in sin" and under a curse. This would be akin to a prisoner conceiving a child during a conjugal visit and then the powers that be taking steps to ensure that the child was raised in prison since the parent had committed an offense.

The sin that got them kicked out wasn't so much disobedience, but more that Adam tried to shift the blame to Eve, and Eve tried to shift the blame to the snake. They were using the "HE started it!" method that many children use.

And I'd like to point out that parents used to be much harsher on disobedient children than they are now. May I recommend taking ancient customs into account when reading ancient literature?

Moreover, the very nature of forgiveness is such that it does not require sacrifice. If your child steals from you, you don't tell them that they have to sacrifice Rover before they can be at peace with you. And if your neighbor offends you, you do not reconcile to them by allowing them to kill your infant son. Either you forgive or you don't.

And back then, forgiveness wasn't enough; you had to actually give something up. Don't forget that cattle, etc. was considered much more important at the time, both for food and for currency. These days, the equivalent would be to give up something from your fridge or your bank as a way to apologize.

The entire thing is not only irrational but if any one of us behaved in a similar fashion, we'd be imprisoned. And rightly so.

That's modern thinking. It is inappropriate to apply modern thinking to stories that are thousands of years old.

Therefore, on the one hand the physical universe screams that the Bible story is not true and on the other hand everything that we understand about the words "good" and "loving" scream that the Bible story cannot be the story of a loving God. How then can anyone actually believe this stuff?

Many Christians accept Parashat Bere**** (the first parts of Genesis beginning with the creation account and ending with the flood) as being allegory.

With regards to "good" and "loving", yet again you apply modern thinking to these words. How concepts were perceived long ago were different than how they're perceived now.
 
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