None of it is true - Does this bother anyone?

[Riverwolf]

Really? Then when he says in Genesis that he created the Earth and vegetation and whatnot before he created the sun, moon and the stars, you believe that? And you believe that he really really loves us and wants to be reconciled to us but that he just can't do it without a bloody sacrifice?

That's amazing.

Omar's an atheist, in case you didn't notice.

 

[slave2six]

Except that Judaism, Christianity, and Islam don't necessarily hinge on the mythology. It's in the TEACHINGS WITHIN THE STORY not the story itself that makes the religions.

Really? So Judaism , Christianity and Islam are all about what exactly? I spent an inordinate amount of time in the Christian faith and I can speak with certainty that the core of the faith is that 1) there is something terribly wrong with human beings (being born with a sin nature because of Adam and Eve), 2) that man and God are separated because of this sin business (which is part and parcel to the Adam myth) and 3) No one gets to God except through accepting the human sacrifice of the virgin (with regards to sin) Jesus. Jesus is the "mediator" between God and man. Anyone who wants to say that the sacrifice (either in the OT or NT) is meaningless is not very well informed. Indeed, the comparison between the first Adam and Jesus ("the second Adam") is pivotal to understanding the Christian faith.

My point is that true forgiveness does not require a mediator or a sacrifice.

Christianity is not about all that stuff in Matthew 5. If it was, the Bahai faith would serve just as well. But Christians claim that anyone who is not a Christian is going to Hell by default because only by accepting the bloody sacrifice can anyone be right with God.

If your statement above was actually true, there would be no cause for religious wars. But no religion is as you want to portray it. They are all myopic and exclusive and full of blood thirst.

 

[slave2six]

Omar's an atheist, in case you didn't notice.

Yea! A rational human being. That's one down, several billion to go...

 

[slave2six]

He's joking?!!! He's an athiest

Whew!

 

[slave2six]

Actually the ancient Egyptians had a pretty interesting religion. In many ways the Hebrew people stole alot of the Egyptians beliefs and added a little of their own and viola! Islam and Christianity are just new add-ons of ancient religions.

Dude! I am half-way through "Christ in Egypt" that talks about the similarities between Christianity and the Egyptian religions. Their religion was fascinating and extraordinarily complex. They had the concept of the Trinity some 2,000 years before the Christians did. They were not primitive in their thinking at all. I think that every religious person alive today owes it to themselves to read about Egypt and find out just how much they influenced current theology.

 

[challupa]

Dude! I am half-way through "Christ in Egypt" that talks about the similarities between Christianity and the Egyptian religions. Their religion was fascinating and extraordinarily complex. They had the concept of the Trinity some 2,000 years before the Christians did. They were not primitive in their thinking at all. I think that every religious person alive today owes it to themselves to read about Egypt and find out just how much they influenced current theology.

I would have to agree with you. I have done quite a bit of reading about the Egyptian culture and religion (ancient). A few authors I have read are Alvin Kuhn, Gerald Massey and Geoffry Higgins. They are all quite interesting and enlightening when you look at how the modern religions were formed and where they get their ideas from.

 

[OmarKhayyam]

Hey, Slave2Six is that head six or Caprica Six?

 

[Alceste]

Yea! A rational human being. That's one down, several billion to go...

 

[Jordan St. Francis]

I think there are as many non-religious literalists/ fundamentalists as there are religious ones, and that in a strange way they reinforce one another. The truth of certain scriptural narratives are not only promoted but also constantly attacked on the level of the OP.

In my opinion this is a problem of the separation of Scripture from the life of the Church, as well as problems with modern qualifications for what constitutes "the true".

 

[Jordan St. Francis]

Dude! I am half-way through "Christ in Egypt" that talks about the similarities between Christianity and the Egyptian religions. Their religion was fascinating and extraordinarily complex. They had the concept of the Trinity some 2,000 years before the Christians did. They were not primitive in their thinking at all. I think that every religious person alive today owes it to themselves to read about Egypt and find out just how much they influenced current theology.

I would have to agree with you. I have done quite a bit of reading about the Egyptian culture and religion (ancient). A few authors I have read are Alvin Kuhn, Gerald Massey and Geoffry Higgins. They are all quite interesting and enlightening when you look at how the modern religions were formed and where they get their ideas from.

I would be very cautious with using Massey. As even Wikipedia acknowledges:

Some writers have drawn parallels between Jesus and Horus, notably Gerald Massey in the late 19th and early 20th century.[6] However, Massey was not a trained Egyptologist and his work was never recognised in the field of Egyptology, and his ideas were seen as fringe theories that lacked critical support. Massey was also a Theosophist[citation needed] whose theories often support theosophical concepts and ideas.

W. Ward Gasque has written that Egyptologists have rejected many of the specific claims made by Harpur and Massey as fallacious, pointing out that there is no evidence of a virgin birth for Horus, and that Harpur's main source, Alvin Boyd Kuhn, was a Theosophist whose books were mainly self-published and that his other sources were in the main not ancient Egyptian texts but out-of-date authors.[8]

 

[Riverwolf]

Really? So Judaism , Christianity and Islam are all about what exactly? I spent an inordinate amount of time in the Christian faith and I can speak with certainty that the core of the faith is that 1) there is something terribly wrong with human beings (being born with a sin nature because of Adam and Eve), 2) that man and God are separated because of this sin business (which is part and parcel to the Adam myth) and 3) No one gets to God except through accepting the human sacrifice of the virgin (with regards to sin) Jesus. Jesus is the "mediator" between God and man. Anyone who wants to say that the sacrifice (either in the OT or NT) is meaningless is not very well informed. Indeed, the comparison between the first Adam and Jesus ("the second Adam") is pivotal to understanding the Christian faith.

That was the denomination that you were a part of, and is indeed common among many of them.

My point is that true forgiveness does not require a mediator or a sacrifice.

Christianity is not about all that stuff in Matthew 5. If it was, the Bahai faith would serve just as well. But Christians claim that anyone who is not a Christian is going to Hell by default because only by accepting the bloody sacrifice can anyone be right with God.

SOME Christians say that. I know many Christians who accept that others believe differently and have even said that other paths to God are valid.

If your statement above was actually true, there would be no cause for religious wars. But no religion is as you want to portray it. They are all myopic and exclusive and full of blood thirst.

ALL of them? That's odd... I've never heard of Buddhists waging wars. Or Taoists, for that matter.

You see, you're forgetting one very important detail: PEOPLE DISAGREE!! Some people are able to just agree to disagree and go on with life, others feel they have to defend their position until they turn blue. When such people get into power, wars are fought.

OH! And I almost forgot something.

"Whatever path men travel is my path; no matter where they walk, it leads to Me." (Bhagavad-Gita, Chapter IV) There's your Sanatana-Dharma exclusiveness for you.

 

[challupa]

I would be very cautious with using Massey. As even Wikipedia acknowledges:

Possibly, but if you have ever read their books, there is a lot to ponder that's for sure. However, their volumes (and they are huge, I got muscles just carrying them home) are well researched. Just because Massey was not a "recognized" Egyptologist doesn't mean he didn't have some things to say that other's that were recognized in the field also found. Harpur, I would assume you are referring to Tom Harpur? Probably his book call "The Pagan Christ"?

 

[Storm]

But no religion is as you want to portray it. They are all myopic and exclusive and full of blood thirst.

UU isn't a religion?

 

[Riverwolf]

UU isn't a religion?

I don't think he's heard of UU.

 

[Jordan St. Francis]

Not only was Massey not an Egyptologist, but the field does not recognize his work- a field quite pertinent to his claims, one might think. He was also a theosophist, so its worth noting his "findings" also have their own theological significance for his spirituality. From what I know, his work in comparative religion is very much on the fringe and not taken today as serious scholarly work. He is also the main source for Harpur.

I have not read a single well accredited, or even poorly accredited, New Testament scholar or scholar of Christian origins who considers any substantial link between the origins of Christianity and the ancient Egyptian religion worthy of mention or examination- we are talking an entire field here.

If anything, research and comparison has only shown the thorough going Jewish character of Christian origins.

 

[challupa]

Not only was Massey not an Egyptologist, but the field does not recognize his work- a field quite pertinent to his claims, one might think. He was also a theosophist, so its worth noting his "findings" also have their own theological significance for his spirituality. From what I know, his work in comparative religion is very much on the fringe and not taken today as serious scholarly work. He is also the main source for Harpur.

I have not read a single well accredited, or even poorly accredited, New Testament scholar or scholar of Christian origins who considers any substantial link between the origins of Christianity and the ancient Egyptian religion worthy of mention or examination- we are talking an entire field here.

If anything, research and comparison has only shown the thorough going Jewish character of Christian origins.

And there never will be if the ones that do are discredited and ignored. I'm not saying they are right, but what they have to say is interesting. Tim Freke and Peter Gandy are also writers that refer to the parallels. Who knows.

 

[slave2six]

I have not read a single well accredited, or even poorly accredited, New Testament scholar or scholar of Christian origins who considers any substantial link between the origins of Christianity and the ancient Egyptian religion worthy of mention or examination- we are talking an entire field here.

And just how far, do you suppose, would the Christian Church go to silence anyone whose work would effectively render the religion moot? It was a practice of the Church to conquer and to destroy anything they thought to be pagan and I'm pretty sure that the Church throughout history has used murder and torture as means of ensuring its power.

There are no writings in the New Testament that were originals by the Apostles and even they did not write about events until decades after the alleged events. Have you read any research about the brain lately, particularly as to how memory works? "The Ethical Brain" by Michael Gazzaniga would be an excellent book for you to consider (it's only $10 (US)) or "Mind Wide Open" (Steven Johnson) or just about any book on neuroscience will do.

Beyond that, there were a lot of "gospels" that were not included in the Bible as well as other writings. And a very large portion of the early Christian world were in fact in agreement with Arius. Nicaea basically determined a victor in a battle over theology and the victors always are the ones who write history. Again, the books of the New Testament weren't selected until 300+ years after the alleged events and all of the works had been re-writes many times over. Just how accurate do you think they could possibly be?

Not that it really matters. None of it is supportable anyways. At least, none of it can be considered "divine revelation." If it is in fact divine revelation then God is an unstable being and we are all screwed no matter what we believe.

 

[slave2six]

You see, you're forgetting one very important detail: PEOPLE DISAGREE!! Some people are able to just agree to disagree and go on with life, others feel they have to defend their position until they turn blue. When such people get into power, wars are fought.

That is an excellent point.

For me, it's such an important issue because the lies of Christianity were forced on me and is being forced on others. Religious people do not allow their children to be taught logic or reason as both are opposed to Christianity. I spent most of my life terrified of God because of the whole Hell business and because of the church.

BTW - I have been in every denomination from Protestant to Orthodox and studied them all. They all have the same basic flaw regarding sacrifice and forgiveness.

 

[tumbleweed41]

Religious people do not allow their children to be taught logic or reason as both are opposed to Christianity.

Just saying "Religious people" is an over-generalization. Not all religious beliefs are the same, nor are all Christians illogical or unreasonable.

I see your point in that many denominations and beliefs are as you say, however lumping every religion together is not justifiable.

 

[Riverwolf]

That is an excellent point.

For me, it's such an important issue because the lies of Christianity were forced on me and is being forced on others. Religious people do not allow their children to be taught logic or reason as both are opposed to Christianity. I spent most of my life terrified of God because of the whole Hell business and because of the church.

And yet I've talked to many Christians who were very logical and knew how to think for themselves.

BTW - I have been in every denomination from Protestant to Orthodox and studied them all. They all have the same basic flaw regarding sacrifice and forgiveness.

Okay, that's good to know. Thing is, even different denominations have denominations. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that there are almost as many Christian denominations as there are Christians.