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None of it is true - Does this bother anyone?

AlsoAnima

Friend
The Creation story puts Adam and Eve at anywhere from 6,000 to 10,000 years ago (particularly when we take into account the details about Adam's age and the age of those after him).

All of the scientific evidence points to the conclusion that homo sapiens have been around for some 200,000 years, this in stark contrast to the Garden of Eden story. Indeed, all the physical evidence supports evolution on every level whether biological, geological, or astronomical. The only rational conclusion is that the Adam and Eve story is, well, a story.
Science is not a field to be farmed for facts, it is a collective group of observations that allow us to better understand how the world works. Science moves at a constantly changing pace and things are proven, disproven and put into theory continually. It's similair to assuming there is such things a historical fact, there isn't. There are just things we can observe and draw conclusions from.
And this is the first problem: If it is just a story then there never was a singular event called "the fall of man" and therefore all this business of killing bulls or a virgin human sacrifice on a cross is entirely baseless.
If it is just a story, that doesn't, in fact, invalidate the rest of the Bible, since it is a single book that is a collection of different volumes with different writers.
The second problem is this: If we assume that the Garden/fall of man story is true, the conclusion that we draw is that the God of the Bible is not, in fact, very good at all. There is not one human being who would kick his/her toddler child out of the house for disobeying them (certainly not on a first offense!) or (if they had the power) alter that child's core being so that every one of her descendants would be born "in sin" and under a curse. This would be akin to a prisoner conceiving a child during a conjugal visit and then the powers that be taking steps to ensure that the child was raised in prison since the parent had committed an offense.
That reasoning only follows through if we assume the God is, in fact, a human. However, if we assume that God is, in fact, a God then we can assume there is a completely different kind of relationship going on than a parent to child one.
Moreover, the very nature of forgiveness is such that it does not require sacrifice. If your child steals from you, you don't tell them that they have to sacrifice Rover before they can be at peace with you. And if your neighbor offends you, you do not reconcile to them by allowing them to kill your infant son. Either you forgive or you don't.
In modern times you don't, however in earlier times the trangressor was expected to offer something to the victim beyond a mere apology in return for forgiveness and mercy.
The entire thing is not only irrational but if any one of us behaved in a similar fashion, we'd be imprisoned. And rightly so.
Modern times.
Therefore, on the one hand the physical universe screams that the Bible story is not true
The physical universe cannot, in fact, scream.
and on the other hand everything that we understand about the words "good" and "loving" scream that the Bible story cannot be the story of a loving God.
That of course depends on your perspective and world view, the people who wrote the story would disagree with you.
How then can anyone actually believe this stuff?
Perhaps you'd understand if you could open your mind to a viewpoint other than your own.
 

slave2six

Substitious
Have you ever read a work of literature where the characters in it don't believe in each other? Something tells me this is not the standard practice when humans create a narrative of any kind...
The main problem with your reply is that it completely ignores that the entire Jewish nation was built upon the divine revelations in the Torah, that they offered sacrifices in keeping with the law, and that every time they were exiled they were blamed for being "unfaithful to God." These are literal, historical facts. The Illiad and whatnot were known to be works of fiction and never presented or accepted as anything more. The Torah was never considered fiction. Those people took it so seriously that they were willing to kill their own children if they walked away from the faith or rebelled in any way.

And today, you have Christians who are just as hard-core who insist that if you don't accept Jesus that you are going to Hell. It is not a fiction to them but a "higher reality."
 

slave2six

Substitious
Most scholars accept that it is EXTREMELY unlikely that Moses was real.

It is quite obvious to most scholars that the Torah had at least four authors, each having written their own account independently, and then was edited and compiled later on. I don't know all the details yet.

EDIT: People sin, and THAT'S the point of the Christian faith: to save us from that sin. Not all denominations say Christ was sent to save mankind from the original sin; some people say that Christ came to save us from OUR OWN sins.
Can you cite sources?
 

averageJOE

zombie
The Adam, and Eve story by biblical standard was a real story. All of the genealogies trace their roots to Adam and Eve. Theses two aren't viewed, in the bible, as some sort of bed time story or metaphor blurted out to teach a lesson. For the sake of argument...these two had kids...and supposedly one killed the other and then after that the story continues with their kids growing up having kids who grew up to have kids etc etc.... About time you get into the NT...the people still believed Adam and Eve were real people who were the beginnings of their genealogy. The gospels writers believed this in an attempt to establish the biblical Yeshua's bloodline and Paul believed them to be real and their actions being responsible for the fall of man.

I asked this in another thread but didn't get a response:
In Gen 4: 16-17, it says that Cain left Eden and went to the land of Nod. There he "knew" his wife and had children.

Who is this woman Cain married and where did she come from?

If God made Adam and Eve and they had only two sons shouldn't the human race have ended there?
 

slave2six

Substitious
Science is not a field to be farmed for facts, it is a collective group of observations that allow us to better understand how the world works. Science moves at a constantly changing pace and things are proven, disproven and put into theory continually. There are just things we can observe and draw conclusions from.
And the conclusion that has to be drawn is that at least the first three books of Genesis is a story (although how you go from story into detailed timelines and bloodlines is a bit of a mystery to me).

If it is just a story, that doesn't, in fact, invalidate the rest of the Bible, since it is a single book that is a collection of different volumes with different writers.
Yes it does because all of those books are authored on the premise of mankind having a "sin nature" which is not true.

That reasoning only follows through if we assume the God is, in fact, a human. However, if we assume that God is, in fact, a God then we can assume there is a completely different kind of relationship going on than a parent to child one.
Within the confines of the Judeo-Christian faith, God is referred to as both a Father and as a Lover in the most intimate sense. That is the basis for the relationship as opposed to gearing some distant, unattainable God.

The physical universe cannot, in fact, scream.
Clearly you are having difficulties of discerning metaphors even within the context of this conversation.

Perhaps you'd understand if you could open your mind to a viewpoint other than your own.
I was raised in the Christian faith and utterly indoctrinated in it. I have studied and experienced literally every teaching and denomination within the faith. For you to say that I don't understand is like telling a fish that it really should learn what it's like to get wet before it starts talking growing feet and walking onto the dry land.
 
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Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
Yes it does because all of those books are authored on the premise of mankind having a "sin nature" which is not true.

It doesn't have to.

It can simply be based on the premise of people sinning against a loving nature.

Because even if humans don't have a sinful nature, that doesn't change the fact that people sin.
 

AlsoAnima

Friend
And the conclusion that has to be drawn is that at least the first three books of Genesis is a story (although how you go from story into detailed timelines and bloodlines is a bit of a mystery to me).
Perhaps you should look up the true definition of mythology.
Yes it does because all of those books are authored on the premise of mankind having a "sin nature" which is not true.
The above is a statement, it is not an arguement. You cannot just say "Mankind doesn't have a sin nature." and expect others to believe it's fact. This is similair to the anti-gay marriage 'arguement' "Marriage is a union between one man and one woman." again, it's not an arguement, but a statement made to look like one.
Within the confines of the Judeo-Christian faith, God is referred to as both a Father and as a Lover in the most intimate sense. That is the basis for the relationship as opposed to gearing some distant, unattainable God.
Metaphorical terms are metaphorical.
Clearly you are having difficulties of discerning metaphors even within the context of this conversation.
Mimicry is the sincerest form of flattery.
I was raised in the Christian faith and utterly indoctrinated in it. I have studied and experienced literally every teaching and denomination within the faith. For you to say that I don't understand is like telling a fish that it really should learn what it's like to get wet before it starts talking about the qualities of different kinds of water.
Actually it's not. You just told me how you got your viewpoint, you have not provided any evidence that you have the capacity to see anyone elses.
 
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slave2six

Substitious
It doesn't have to.

It can simply be based on the premise of people sinning against a loving nature.

Because even if humans don't have a sinful nature, that doesn't change the fact that people sin.
That's like saying that a tiger doesn't need a killer instinct in order to kill its prey. It does what it does by nature. So do people. We have natural instincts that are at odds with the rules that we have created for ourselves. That's not "sin." It's nature. When someone attacks you (verbally or physically) you do not look within yourself and seek for an appropriate response. You react out of natural instinct. As an adult you can prepare yourself to not respond in such situations and live a completely non-violent life like Gandhi did but that is learned behavior and simply suppressing your nature. Or, you could take thorazine and be so mellowed out that nothing phases you. This would be a chemical remedy to the natural instinct. In either case, it all takes place in the mind.
 

AlsoAnima

Friend
That's not "sin."
I'm going to teach you something about words now.

Word are subjective. They are not real, they represent ideas. If one persons idea of nature, is the same as another person's idea of sin, you cannot argue that nature is not sin. Because to them, your nature is their sin.
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
That's like saying that a tiger doesn't need a killer instinct in order to kill its prey. It does what it does by nature. So do people. We have natural instincts that are at odds with the rules that we have created for ourselves. That's not "sin." It's nature. When someone attacks you (verbally or physically) you do not look within yourself and seek for an appropriate response. You react out of natural instinct. As an adult you can prepare yourself to not respond in such situations and live a completely non-violent life like Gandhi did but that is learned behavior and simply suppressing your nature. Or, you could take thorazine and be so mellowed out that nothing phases you. This would be a chemical remedy to the natural instinct. In either case, it all takes place in the mind.

Sinning is not following instinct alone. The original definition, from what I've heard, of "sin" is to "miss the mark." So if you're trying to learn how to be nonviolent, like Gandhi, and you do something that's violent, that's a sin. If you're not trying to be nonviolent, and you do something that's violent, it's not a sin.

If I wanted to get over my video-game addiction by selling all my video games and not associate myself with gamer culture by ignoring all the news and not reading up anything that had to do with video games, and I quickly look something up that has to do with video games (and is not part of some project), that's a sin. Since I'm not trying that, I don't sin by doing that.
 

slave2six

Substitious
Perhaps you should look up the true definition of mythology.The above is a statement, it is not an arguement. You cannot just say "Mankind doesn't have a sin nature." and expect others to believe it's fact.
I have already done so quite thoroughly previously in this thread. You are free to read or yourself.

You just told me how you got your viewpoint, you have not provided any evidence that you have the capacity to see anyone elses.
Can I assume by this statement that you think that the Christian faith is one of personal interpretation? Clearly there are some who think so, none of whom have studied the faith very well. If that was true, there would be no need for churches or for doctrine or discussion at all.

My arguments are against the stated doctrines of every denomination. I will not get into the petty squabbles between each denomination. I am speaking to the basis of the faith as a whole. I don't give a tinker's damn about personal opinion. I am against the Church as an institution, not against people who actually care for the poor and sick and do those things that are consistent with a true understanding of the purpose of religion.
 

slave2six

Substitious
I'm going to teach you something about words now.

Word are subjective. They are not real, they represent ideas. If one persons idea of nature, is the same as another person's idea of sin, you cannot argue that nature is not sin. Because to them, your nature is their sin.
Are you really this obtuse? I am talking about the Christian faith and it is from that that I draw the definition of "sin" as it has been understood for some 6,000 years now. I'm not talking about universal religion or general mythology.
 

AlsoAnima

Friend
Clearly there are some who think so, none of whom have studied the faith very well.
I'll need to see you empirical data on that, and you'll need to quantify what is defined as studying the faith 'very well'.
If that was true, there would be no need for churches at all.
Oh, so we agree. There is no need for churches as we know them in the modern world. Glad we could connect on that point.
My arguments are against the stated doctrines of every denomination. I will not get into the petty squabbles between each denomination. I am speaking to the basis of the faith as a whole. I don't give a tinker's damn about personal opinion. I am against the Church as an institution, not against people who actually care for the poor and sick and do those things that are consistent with a true understanding of the purpose of religion.
Your statements contradict eachother. In essence you are saying. "No one's opinion but my own matters."
 

slave2six

Substitious
Sinning is not following instinct alone. The original definition, from what I've heard, of "sin" is to "miss the mark." So if you're trying to learn how to be nonviolent, like Gandhi, and you do something that's violent, that's a sin. If you're not trying to be nonviolent, and you do something that's violent, it's not a sin.
OK. Sorry for the confusion. Again, I am speaking within the confines of the Judeo-Christian religion which requires a blood sacrifice for sins. I don't think that they meant "trying to do something and failing" so much as intentionally committing a a forbidden act.
 

AlsoAnima

Friend
Are you really this obtuse? I am talking about the Christian faith and it is from that that I draw the definition of "sin" as it has been understood for some 6,000 years now. I'm not talking about universal religion or general mythology.
Your first mistake is assuming then definiation of sin hasn't change for 6,000 years. Your second is using the phrase "the Christian faith".
 

slave2six

Substitious
Your statements contradict eachother. In essence you are saying. "No one's opinion but my own matters."
You've never been in a debate class, have you?

I presented the premise of the religion

I demonstrated from within the confines of that religion how it is false.

I demonstrated from within the confines of the physical universe how it is false.

Personal opinion does not enter into it.
 

slave2six

Substitious
Your first mistake is assuming then definiation of sin hasn't change for 6,000 years. Your second is using the phrase "the Christian faith".
My third is engaging in conversation with someone who refuses to understand the premise of the argument or speak to the merits of the argument rather than attempting to sidestep the issues with attempting to discredit me.

In reading this thread, I have found great comfort in finding that there are in fact people who can have intelligent conversation and stay on point but even more so in finding some who have supported my argument. I'll leave you to ponder the thread on your own.
 
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