Nord Stream

[mikkel_the_dane]

With all due respect...can you speak German?
What does Sozialistiche Partei Deutschlands means? ❤

Yes, I can speak German. And it is not a given that SPD is in effect a socalistic party in the sense of socialistic as opposed to social democratic.

Google search: "Die SPD versteht demokratischen Sozialismus seit dem Godesberger Programm 1959 als soziale Marktwirtschaft mit gerechter Verteilung von Gewinnen, die gleiche Lebenschancen eröffnen soll."
That is in effect not the ownership of all the means of production, but in effect capitalism where the state offsets some of the effects of capitalism, i.e. social democracy.

 

[Estro Felino]

Yes, I can speak German. And it is not a given that SPD is in effect a socalistic party in the sense of socialistic as opposed to social democratic.

Google search: "Die SPD versteht demokratischen Sozialismus seit dem Godesberger Programm 1959 als soziale Marktwirtschaft mit gerechter Verteilung von Gewinnen, die gleiche Lebenschancen eröffnen soll."
That is in effect not the ownership of all the means of production, but in effect capitalism where the state offsets some of the effects of capitalism, i.e. social democracy.

Sag mir die Verschiedenheit zwischen Sozialismus und Demokratischem Sozialismus.

 

[Tamino]

With all due respect...can you speak German?
What does Sozialistiche Partei Deutschlands means? ❤

Lucky then, isn't it, that the SPD is the Sozialdemokratische Partei Deutschlands and they've been separate from the more Marxist-Socialist groups of the German political spectrum for more than a hundred years.

 

[Estro Felino]

Lucky then, isn't it, that the SPD is the Sozialdemokratische Partei Deutschlands and they've been separate from the more Marxist-Socialist groups of the German political spectrum for more than a hundred years.

Answer the question at post no. 82

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Sag mir die Verschiedenheit zwischen Sozialismus und Demokratischem Sozialismus.

Yeah, I understand German, but from there doesn't follow that I am good at writing it. So there are 3 and not 2 variants as play.
Socialism - the control of the means of the production.
Democratic socialism - the democratic control of the means of the production.
Social democracy - the democratic state can offset the effect of capitalism and can over time evolve into democratic socialism, but doesn't have to.

 

[Tamino]

Sag mir die Verschiedenheit zwischen Sozialismus und Demokratischem Sozialismus.

Die Sozialdemokraten unterstützen eine freie Marktwirtschaft und den privaten Besitz von Produktionsmitteln, solange die Unternehmen sich im Rahmen der gesetzlichen Vorgaben bewegen und die Arbeiterschaft ihre Interessen durch Gewerkschaften und Betriebsräte ausreichend vertreten kann.
Der Sozialismus dagegen fordert, dass Kapital und Produktionsmittel sich unter Kontrolle des Staates und damit der Allgemeinheit befinden sollen.
Inwiefern diese Ideale in der Realität umgesetzt werden konnten ist natürlich eine andere Frage.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Answer the question at post no. 82

So you didn't give the correct name for the SPD. Yeah, figures.

 

[Estro Felino]

Yeah, I understand German, but from there doesn't follow that I am good at writing it. So there are 3 and not 2 variants as play.
Socialism - the control of the means of the production.
Democratic socialism - the democratic control of the means of the production.
Social democracy - the democratic state can offset the effect of capitalism and can over time evolve into democratic socialism, but doesn't have to.

Since I am a socialist living in a democratic country, it was redundant to point out that I was a socialist in a democratic context.
Maybe you think that democratic socialism implies to roll red carpet at the financial-banking élites?

 

[Estro Felino]

So you didn't give the correct name for the SPD. Yeah, figures.

Redundant.

 

[Estro Felino]

Die Sozialdemokraten unterstützen eine freie Marktwirtschaft und den privaten Besitz von Produktionsmitteln, solange die Unternehmen sich im Rahmen der gesetzlichen Vorgaben bewegen und die Arbeiterschaft ihre Interessen durch Gewerkschaften und Betriebsräte ausreichend vertreten kann.
Der Sozialismus dagegen fordert, dass Kapital und Produktionsmittel sich unter Kontrolle des Staates und damit der Allgemeinheit befinden sollen.
Inwiefern diese Ideale in der Realität umgesetzt werden konnten ist natürlich eine andere Frage.

Wrong.
Democratic socialism is socialism implemented through democratic and anti-totalitarian means.
It doesn't mean that privates' interests and the most squalid neo-liberal markets shall prevail over the public interests.

 

[Tamino]

Here's the speech that Olaf Scholz held at a conference in June, from the official German government website.
For those that don't read German or know German politics: Olaf Scholz is our current chancellor, the head of government. And he keeps talking about continued support, delivery of more military aid and economic collaboration and support to rebuild Ukraine.
Let me quote:
"Stärke, Prinzipienfestigkeit ‑ das sind auch die Voraussetzungen dafür, dass Putin erkennt: Es wird keinen militärischen Sieg und keinen Diktatfrieden geben. Er muss seinen brutalen Feldzug beenden und Truppen zurückziehen.

Diese Erkenntnis zu befördern, darum geht es bei dem Friedensgipfel, zu dem wir am Wochenende in der Schweiz zusammenkommen. Dort werden wir mit Partnern aus allen Teilen der Welt deutlich machen: Wir unterstützen das Völkerrecht und die Charta der Vereinten Nationen! Das heißt in diesem Fall: Wir unterstützen die angegriffene Ukraine, so lange wie nötig."

Strength and principles - that's also the prerequisite for Putin to understand: there will be no military victory and no dictated peace. He has to end his brutal campaign and pull back his troops.

To strengthen this understanding - that's also what the peace summit is about that we will join in Switzerland at the weekend. There we will confirm, together with our partners from all over the world: we support International Law and the United Nations Charta! And that means here: we will support the Ukraine that's being attacked, as long as it is necessary.

Rede von Bundeskanzler Scholz bei der Ukraine Recovery Conference 2024 am 11. Juni 2024 in Berlin

www.bundeskanzler.de

 

[Estro Felino]

Here's the speech that Olaf Scholz held at a conference in June, from the official German government website.
For those that don't read German or know German politics: Olaf Scholz is our current chancellor, the head of government. And he keeps talking about continued support, delivery of more military aid and economic collaboration and support to rebuild Ukraine.
Let me quote:
"Stärke, Prinzipienfestigkeit ‑ das sind auch die Voraussetzungen dafür, dass Putin erkennt: Es wird keinen militärischen Sieg und keinen Diktatfrieden geben. Er muss seinen brutalen Feldzug beenden und Truppen zurückziehen.

Diese Erkenntnis zu befördern, darum geht es bei dem Friedensgipfel, zu dem wir am Wochenende in der Schweiz zusammenkommen. Dort werden wir mit Partnern aus allen Teilen der Welt deutlich machen: Wir unterstützen das Völkerrecht und die Charta der Vereinten Nationen! Das heißt in diesem Fall: Wir unterstützen die angegriffene Ukraine, so lange wie nötig."

Strength and principles - that's also the prerequisite for Putin to understand: there will be no military victory and no dictated peace. He has to end his brutal campaign and pull back his troops.

To strengthen this understanding - that's also what the peace summit is about that we will join in Switzerland at the weekend. There we will confirm, together with our partners from all over the world: we support International Law and the United Nations Charta! And that means here: we will support the Ukraine that's being attacked, as long as it is necessary.

Rede von Bundeskanzler Scholz bei der Ukraine Recovery Conference 2024 am 11. Juni 2024 in Berlin

www.bundeskanzler.de

One question: was the EU created to protect the geopolitical and economic interests of the European countries, or was it created to serve the American egoistical interests?

 

[Tamino]

Wrong.
Democratic socialism is socialism implemented through democratic and anti-totalitarian means.
It doesn't mean that privates' interests and the most squalid neo-liberal markets shall prevail over the public interests.

Wrong? Really?

Grundsatzprogramm der SPD über das Wirtschaftssystem:
(Below are quotes from the party's official platform supporting a fair balance of free market and state control)

"Im 20. Jahrhundert ist mit der sozialen Marktwirtschaft ein herausragendes Erfolgsmodell geschaffen worden. Sie verbindet wirtschaftliche Stärke mit Wohlstand für breite Schichten"

"Märkte bedürfen der politischen Gestaltung – im Zeitalter der Globalisierung auch über nationale Grenzen hinaus. Für uns gilt: so viel Wettbewerb wie möglich, so viel regulierender Staat wie nötig."

"Unternehmerische Freiheit und soziale Verantwortung sind für uns zwei Seiten derselben Medaille. Sozialdemokratische Politik fördert durch einen fairen Wettbewerb verantwortliches Unternehmertum."

 

[Tamino]

• 
  

• One question: was the EU created to protect the geopolitical and economic interests of the European countries, or was it created to serve the American egoistical interests?

  I don't see how this (leading) question relates at all to the political position of the German Social-democratic Party.

 

[Estro Felino]

• 
  
• 
  I don't see how this (leading) question relates at all to the political position of the German Social-democratic Party.

You plead the fifth, then?

 

[Tamino]

You plead the fifth, then?

I just don't want to push this thread too far off it's original topic. It's about the position of Germany towards the Ukraine after the North Stream sabotage, and already took a detour to the party line of the German chancellor's party

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

I just don't want to push this thread too far off it's original topic. It's about the position of Germany towards the Ukraine after the North Stream sabotage, and already took a detour to the party line of the German chancellor's party

No, you just correct @Estro Felino as needed.

 

[Estro Felino]

I just don't want to push this thread too far off it's original topic. It's about the position of Germany towards the Ukraine after the North Stream sabotage, and already took a detour to the party line of the German chancellor's party

It is on topic.
Nordstream is the symbol of EU geopolitical and economic interests.
He who refuses to answer has already lost the debate

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

It is on topic.
Nordstream is the symbol of EU geopolitical and economic interests.
He who refuses to answer has already lost the debate

So please back up the questions ofr what Schultz has said in regards to Ukranie and Nord Stream, And that he is a socialist and not social democrat.
And what Germany as such and the German people think.

 

[Estro Felino]

So please back up the questions ofr what Schultz has said in regards to Ukranie and Nord Stream, And that he is a socialist and not social democrat.
And what Germany as such and the German people think.

Nordstream is a German infrastructure.
So we are speaking of Germany economy too.
We are not speaking of Greenland.