Not even Christians believe the *edit* of creation

[GoodAttention]

Genesis! Read the Book. References have already been cited, and there are more.

You said specifically it is described as a flat disc so why can't provide the verse and version/translation you are using?

The Genesis account reflects what was generally believed at the time and in the maps they made.

You have a bias because you read the scripture thinking it is 100% fiction.

I agree a geocentric universe was the thinking of the time in certain areas of the world, but I deny your claim that Genesis is a "reflection" of this.

 

[YoursTrue]

No, of course not. The Earth is an oblate spheroid. The universe is not an ocean of water. The Earth's atmosphere is not dome shaped. And the Sun, the Moon, and the stars are not contained within the Earth's atmosphere. And yet the Bible's story of creation says all of that.

Actually, for all we really know the earth's atmosphere could be similar to a dome shape all around, of course. I have reasons for thinking that, but anyway, you go ahead.

 

[GoodAttention]

Actually, for all we really know the earth's atmosphere could be similar to a dome shape all around, of course. I have reasons for thinking that, but anyway, you go ahead.

The terms "dome" and "firmament" are prime examples of how meaning and intent gets lost in translation.

Two problems with the English Christian translations are first, the use of heaven to describe two different entities.
The correct translations should be space for the first use, and atmosphere for the second, where the birds fly.

The second is with firmament, which gives a description that it is flush against something. It's not.
The atmosphere "holds" the stars up like a beam. I imagine a column of "air" connecting the sun, moon, planets, and constellations and holding them up in the night sky.

 

[DavidSMoore]

The corrections were based on legitimate new findings and research not known at the time of the original KJV.

My argument is that the provenance of the Bible is the main issue not which translation is correct.

It remains the Genesis Creations story is based on the ancient mythology of the time. There never was a place the Garden of Eden, Adam and Eve and no talking snakes. There definitely was not a perfect world without death, sin or suffering.

Yup. I agree. I realize now that I should have responded to @GardenLady when she said:

Why limit yourself to one translation? The KJV and the NIV say, "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth."

My point was that the issues that are brought to the fore in the NRSVue were latent in previous English translations. But they were obscured, chiefly by the use of the obsolete English word "firmament," and the phrasing of the first sentence.

 

[DavidSMoore]

1. I didn't know it says the earth is a flat disc. But if that's how you interpret it -- have a good one. No need for me to go any further if that's how you see things. Some people were barred from joining the armed forces because they had "flat feet."

You're late to the party. Why not go back to the beginning of this thread to see what we've been discussion discussing for the last three and a half months:

First post of this thread.

 

[DavidSMoore]

Actually, for all we really know the earth's atmosphere could be similar to a dome shape all around, of course. I have reasons for thinking that, but anyway, you go ahead.

The Earth is an oblate spheroid. The Earth's atmosphere is a 6200 mile thick shell shaped layer that envelops the Earth. I see no way that the Earth's atmosphere can be described as a dome. But the Hebrew word that is rendered as "firmament" in older translations of the Bible really means "dome," because the author of the creation story believed that the Earth is a flat disc.

 

[shunyadragon]

You said specifically it is described as a flat disc so why can't provide the verse and version/translation you are using?

I clarified the belief of the ancients as flat or rounded disc with a heavenly dome above. sitting on pillars, Again, again, and again read Genesis and other references provided depicting the flat or curve plat with domed heavens.. In all the pictures made by the ancients based on the scriptures showed either a flat disc or a rounded disc as the geocentric fixed center of the universe sitting on pillars. They read the scriptures and described graphically what they believed.

You have a bias because you read the scripture thinking it is 100% fiction.

No problem the Genesis account of Creation is 100% fiction, and was understood as described by Christians as a flat or rounded disc domed heavens fixed in space at the center of the universe.

The Roman philosopher Lucretius was the first to propose a modern cosmology. It was the Greeks that began to conclude that the earth was a sphere until the Greek view began to dominate after the 5th century.

It is not only the Genesis account, but many references throughout the OT that support a flat or domed earth supported by pillars fixed at the center of the universe.

I agree a geocentric universe was the thinking of the time in certain areas of the world, but I deny your claim that Genesis is a "reflection" of this.

The view of a fixed geocentric earth remained the dominate view until. the15th and 16th century. The Bible provided no guidance for more modern cosmology. The authors or compilers of the Pentateuch, OT, and gospels and the Church Fathers believed in a literal Pentateuch and Torah. For most of the early believers in Christianity these views were by far dominant, because they believed in a literal scripture.

Some of the Biblical references:

Daniel 4:10-11: “These are the visions I saw while lying in bed: I looked, and there before me stood a tree in the middle of the land. Its height was enormous. The tree grew large and strong and its top touched the sky; it was visible to the ends of the earth.”

Earth fixed in space on pillars

1 Chronicles 16:30: "He has fixed the earth firm, immovable." [1]

Psalm 93:1: "Thou hast fixed the earth immovable and firm ..." [2]

Psalm 96:10: "He has fixed the earth firm, immovable ..." [3]

Psalm 104:5: "Thou didst fix the earth on its foundation so that it never can be shaken." [4] [1]

1 Chronicles 16:30: Fear before him, all the earth: the world also shall be stable, that it be not moved.[5]

Psalms 75:3 When the earth and all its people quake, it is I who hold its pillars firm.

I Samuel 2:8 He raiseth up the poor out of the dust, And lifteth up the beggar from the dunghill, To set them among princes, And to make them inherit the throne of glory: For the pillars of the earth are the LORD's, And he hath set the world upon them.

Job 9:6 He shakes the earth from its place and makes its pillars tremble.

Many verses describe the earth has having four corners as depicted in an ancient maps.

Some today actually still argue for a planar earth as a fixed geocentric universe based on the Bible: Plane Geodesy

The on light for heliocentric view at the times of Jesus Christ was the Roman philosopher Lucretius who described the universe from a modern perspective.

 

[GoodAttention]

Again, again, and again read Genesis and other references provided depicting the flat or curve plat with domed heavens.. In all the pictures made by the ancients based on the scriptures showed either a flat disc or a rounded disc as the geocentric fixed center of the universe,

Your folly is only matched by your insincerity. Don’t make claims about Genesis you can’t defend.

No problem the Genesis account of Creation is 100% fiction, and was understood as described by Christians as a flat or rounded disc domed heavens fixed in space at the center of the universe.

The Roman philosopher Lucretius was the first to propose a modern cosmology. It was the Greeks that began to conclude that the earth was a sphere until the Greek view began to dominate after the 5th century.

It is not only the Genesis account, but many references throughout the OT that support a flat or domed earth supported by pillars fixed at the center of the universe.



The view of a fixed geocentric earth remained the dominate view until. the15th and 16th century. The Bible provided no guidance for more modern cosmology. The authors or compilers of the Pentateuch, OT, and gospels and the Church Fathers believed in a literal Pentateuch and Torah. For most of the early believers in Christianity these views were by far dominant, because they believed in a literal scripture.

Some of the Biblical references:

Daniel 4:10-11: “These are the visions I saw while lying in bed: I looked, and there before me stood a tree in the middle of the land. Its height was enormous. The tree grew large and strong and its top touched the sky; it was visible to the ends of the earth.”

Earth fixed in space on pillars

1 Chronicles 16:30: "He has fixed the earth firm, immovable." [1]

Psalm 93:1: "Thou hast fixed the earth immovable and firm ..." [2]

Psalm 96:10: "He has fixed the earth firm, immovable ..." [3]

Psalm 104:5: "Thou didst fix the earth on its foundation so that it never can be shaken." [4] [1]

1 Chronicles 16:30: Fear before him, all the earth: the world also shall be stable, that it be not moved.[5]

Psalms 75:3 When the earth and all its people quake, it is I who hold its pillars firm.

I Samuel 2:8 He raiseth up the poor out of the dust, And lifteth up the beggar from the dunghill, To set them among princes, And to make them inherit the throne of glory: For the pillars of the earth are the LORD's, And he hath set the world upon them.

Job 9:6 He shakes the earth from its place and makes its pillars tremble.

Many verses describe the earth has having four corners as depicted in an ancient maps.

Some today actually still argue for a planar earth as a fixed geocentric universe based on the Bible: Plane Geodesy

The on light for heliocentric view at the times of Jesus Christ was the Roman philosopher Lucretius who described the universe from a modern perspective.

So your defence is the Christian interpretation of Genesis, yet no where do the scriptures state the earth is a flat disc.

 

[shunyadragon]

Your folly is only matched by your insincerity. Don’t make claims about Genesis you can’t defend.

The problem of maturity is your issue clinging to an ancient mythology and misrepresenting the actual Bible text.

So your defence is the Christian interpretation of Genesis, yet no where do the scriptures state the earth is a flat disc.

Not only Genesis but the whole Bible, Documented the interpretation of the Bible, which agrees with the Christian view of the Bible at the time and in history until the evolving scientific evidence refuted the ancient traditional beliefs..

It is your choice to remain intentionally ignorant based on trying vainly to justify an ancient tribal text without science..

I consider this response a failure to respond to the actual references of the Pentateuch text, Your neglecting the fact that everyone including Christians believed this at the time, except ah . . . the Roman philosopher Lucretius who was an atheist,

God created the the universe with the flat or slightly domed earth fixed at the center supported by pillars,

 

[DavidSMoore]

So your defence is the Christian interpretation of Genesis, yet no where do the scriptures state the earth is a flat disc.

The only three dimensional geometric shape that would fit beneath a dome shaped atmosphere is a flat disc. So the author of the Biblical story of creation must have believed that the Earth is a flat disc. Simple. Does the Bible explicitly state "The Earth is a flat disc"? No, it doesn't. But so what? The plain reading of the text shows that the author of the story of the creation must have believed that.

 

[firedragon]

What does "Not even Christians believe the *edit* of creation" mean?

 

[shunyadragon]

The only three dimensional geometric shape that would fit beneath a dome shaped atmosphere is a flat disc. So the author of the Biblical story of creation must have believed that the Earth is a flat disc. Simple. Does the Bible explicitly state "The Earth is a flat disc"? No, it doesn't. But so what? The plain reading of the text shows that the author of the story of the creation must have believed that.

Actually this was the view of the cosmos by everyone at the time, except Lucretius who had a more modern view of cosmology, As with everyone at the time they believed what they wrote.

 

[shunyadragon]

What does "Not even Christians believe the *edit* of creation" mean?

Over time Christians and Muslims germander, adjust, make things fit to what they want to believe as to how to interpret the Bible and Quran containing the ancient views of cosmology, history of the universe and life that become more ridiculous over time., but unfortunately many, too many cling to ancient tribal beliefs and mythology rejecting science. Muslims are more consistent by far the majority believe in a literal Pentateuch and reject science.

Fortunately. many Christians do reject the ancient mythology of Genesis and much of the Pentateuch as literal history and hedge their beliefs on anecdotal and symbolic meaning of the text, Though it is tuff sitting on the fence getting splinters in their butt living with the contradictions of ancient tribal texts,

 

[DavidSMoore]

What does "Not even Christians believe the *edit* of creation" mean?

Substitute the word "story" for "*edit*".

 

[firedragon]

Substitute the word "story" for "*edit*".

Ah. Thank you so much for the clarification.

Who are these christians the OP is talking about? I'm curious.

 

[DavidSMoore]

Who are these christians the OP is talking about? I'm curious.

Not sure. The range of beliefs of people who call themselves Christian is very broad, as I see it.

 

[Absolutely Frank]

Not sure. The range of beliefs of people who call themselves Christian is very broad, as I see it.

So these Christians you are speaking of are made of straw?

 

[DavidSMoore]

So these Christians you are speaking of are made of straw?

?? I'm not sure what specific comment you are referencing. I hope I'm not engaging in straw man arguments.

 

[shunyadragon]

The terms "dome" and "firmament" are prime examples of how meaning and intent gets lost in translation.

Two problems with the English Christian translations are first, the use of heaven to describe two different entities.
The correct translations should be space for the first use, and atmosphere for the second, where the birds fly.

The second is with firmament, which gives a description that it is flush against something. It's not.
The atmosphere "holds" the stars up like a beam. I imagine a column of "air" connecting the sun, moon, planets, and constellations and holding them up in the night sky.

You imagine?!?!!? How is this in touch with reality. The question of the differences in translation and contemporary interpretations is not remotely the issue, because it is the habit today to interpret ancient scripture to fit what they are comfortable with.

The problem of the fact that the Bible presents a literal ancient cosmology believed at the time without science has ramifications of what believers are willing to believe today, which is very tragic and bizarre. For example:

Geocentric model - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Polls​

According to a report released in 2014 by the National Science Foundation, 26% of Americans surveyed believe that the Sun revolves around the Earth.[44] Morris Berman quotes a 2006 survey that show currently some 20% of the U.S. population believe that the Sun goes around the Earth (geocentricism) rather than the Earth goes around the Sun (heliocentricism), while a further 9% claimed not to know.[45] Polls conducted by Gallup in the 1990s found that 16% of Germans, 18% of Americans and 19% of Britons hold that the Sun revolves around the Earth.[46] A study conducted in 2005 by Jon D. Miller of Northwestern University, an expert in the public understanding of science and technology,[47] found that about 20%, or one in five, of American adults believe that the Sun orbits the Earth.[48] According to 2011 VTSIOM poll, 32% of Russians believe that the Sun orbits the Earth.[

 

[Absolutely Frank]

?? I'm not sure what specific comment you are referencing. I hope I'm not engaging in straw man arguments.

What is a Christian?