Nothing lasts forever in this life

[Trailblazer]

I asked two questions. What does living mean without a body, which you did not answer; and in what way is the living thing me which you did try to address.

In this earthly life we cannot live without a physical body, so living would not mean anything without a body.

When I talk about life, I mean "Life is a quality that distinguishes matter that has biological processes, such as signaling and self-sustaining processes, from that which does not, and is defined by the capacity for growth, reaction to stimuli, metabolism, energy transformation, and reproduction." If it isn't matter and does not have biological processes use of the word life means nothing to me.

You are describing physical life in a physical body, the life humans and other living things have on earth. Biological processes apply to physical matter as it exists in the physical world.

I believe there is another kind of life in the spiritual world, not physical life but rather spiritual life, and there are spiritual bodies comprised of spiritual elements in the that world. We cannot know what that world will be like, not anymore than a child still in the womb can know what this physical world will be like before it is born.

I don't see how. In order to work through the brain it would have to somehow physically modify potassium and sodium ions to cross a physical barrier. While there are things we don't know about the brain, we do know how chemistry works. And the potassium and sodium ions in the brain are not a mystery.

We do not know how the soul functions to animate the brain and body since the soul is a mystery no human mind has ever unraveled.

 

[Aupmanyav]

The hard problem of consciousness is the problem of explaining why and how humans have qualia or phenomenal experiences.

I do not see a problem at all. Brain is like a computer, 0 and 1, switches in billions of neurons. So any experience gets categorized at various levels. Then there is fuzzy search, where it jumps from one point to another related (closely or distantly) one. Some people make it into a problem, others do not. Depends on what group you will like to join.

"The existence of a "hard problem" is controversial. It has been accepted by philosophers of mind such as Joseph Levine, Colin McGinn, and Ned Block and cognitive neuroscientists such as Francisco Varela, Giulio Tononi, and Christof Koch. However, its existence is disputed by philosophers of mind such as Daniel Dennett, Massimo Pigliucci, Thomas Metzinger, Patricia Churchland, and Keith Frankish, and cognitive neuroscientists such as Stanislas Dehaene, Bernard Baars, Anil Seth, and Antonio Damasio.
According to physicalism, everything can be explained by appeal to its microphysical constituents, including consciousness"
Hard problem of consciousness - Wikipedia

 

[Aupmanyav]

but it is the soul that animates the brain, so the brain could not function without the soul.

We are animated by exchange of carbon-Di-oxide for oxygen in blood, and food in our stomach.

I believe there is another kind of life in the spiritual world, not physical life but rather spiritual life, and there are spiritual bodies comprised of spiritual elements in the that world. We cannot know what that world will be like, not anymore than a child still in the womb can know what this physical world will be like before it is born.

We do not know how the soul functions to animate the brain and body since the soul is a mystery no human mind has ever unraveled.

Why you believe like that? What are spiritual elements? If you cannot prove the existence of soul and do not know how soul functions, then why have such a belief? This is unjustified belief.
"By November 2016, the International Union of Pure and Applied Chemistry had recognized a total of 118 elements." Chemical element - Wikipedia

 

[samtonga43]

Baha'is believe in the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, so in that sense we believe in a Trinity; but we don't believe these three are part of God.

Nor do I.

 

[ppp]

The hard problem of consciousness is the problem of explaining why and how humans have qualia or phenomenal experiences. This is in contrast to the "easy problems" of explaining the physical systems that give us and other animals the ability to discriminate, integrate information, and so forth.

Hard problem of consciousness - Wikipedia.

It has always seems to me that the HPC is more of an assertion than a derivation. It might just be that I don't understand it well enough, but it strikes me as some interesting ideas glued together with an argument from ignorance.

However, even if the HCP is a real thing, asserting that a soul exists does not answer the question of what a soul is and how it interacts with molecules, and why there is no evidence of such an interaction in chemistry.

 

[ppp]

In this earthly life we cannot live without a physical body, so living would not mean anything without a body.

That still does not explain what "living" means without a body.

You are describing physical life in a physical body, the life humans and other living things have on earth. Biological processes apply to physical matter as it exists in the physical world.

I am. That is a usage of living that I understand, I take it that is not how you are using the word when you talk about living past our deaths? And that is fine. Words can and do have multiple usages. But until you can define your usage of 'living', you usage can quite literally have no meaning to me. You could substitute the word 'hgkjgkh' for 'living' and it would communicate just as much to me.

I believe there is another kind of life in the spiritual world, not physical life but rather spiritual life, and there are spiritual bodies comprised of spiritual elements in the that world. We cannot know what that world will be like, not anymore than a child still in the womb can know what this physical world will be like before it is born.

I understand that you believe that.

We do not know how the soul functions to animate the brain and body since the soul is a mystery no human mind has ever unraveled.

How is this any different from saying that demons cause epilepsy, or that the gremlins cause well working machinery to fail?

We do not know how the demons function to make the epilepsy since the demons are a mystery no human mind has ever unraveled.
We do not know how the gremlins function to make the perfectly working airplane engines fail since the gremlins are a mystery no human mind has ever unraveled.

 

[KWED]

Me saying that time as we know it in this life does not exist in the afterlife is not me saying that I know what time in the afterlife will be like.
Thus there is no contradiction.

#49 Trailblazer, Yesterday at 9:50 AM
Gotcha applies, which is why @KWED offered no rebuttal.

Rebuttal to what? I didn't see any argument there that needed a response.
My point still stands. You made specific claims about what the afterlife is like. You then claimed that you had made no such claims.
More flip-floppery.

 

[KWED]

The rebuttal that was not offered was not for the video.

Whuuh??
How can something that doesn't exist, be not about something?
That is nonsensical, even for you.

 

[KWED]

but it is the soul that animates the brain, so the brain could not function without the soul.

So how are we able to manipulate consciousness by electro, chemical and physical means? It consciousness is "the soul" and is independent of the physical brain, then it should not be possible.
More evidence that consciousness is a product of the brain. And you still have no evidence that there is such a thing as a "soul".

 

[KWED]

In this earthly life we cannot live without a physical body, so living would not mean anything without a body.

You are describing physical life in a physical body, the life humans and other living things have on earth. Biological processes apply to physical matter as it exists in the physical world.

I believe there is another kind of life in the spiritual world, not physical life but rather spiritual life, and there are spiritual bodies comprised of spiritual elements in the that world. We cannot know what that world will be like, not anymore than a child still in the womb can know what this physical world will be like before it is born.

We do not know how the soul functions to animate the brain and body since the soul is a mystery no human mind has ever unraveled.

So all your claims about the soul, afterlife, etc are just opinions with zero supporting evidence, so any alternative explanation that has supporting evidence is therefor better.

 

[Trailblazer]

My point still stands. You made specific claims about what the afterlife is like.

My point still stands.
I made no claims about what the afterlife will be like.
I made claims about what the afterlife will not be like.
1. There is no sunset
2. There is no sunrise
3. Time is different to how we experience it

1-3 does not tell us what the afterlife will be like.

 

[Trailblazer]

So all your claims about the soul, afterlife, etc are just opinions with zero supporting evidence, so any alternative explanation that has supporting evidence is therefor better.

What alternative explanation has supporting evidence?

 

[Trailblazer]

So how are we able to manipulate consciousness by electro, chemical and physical means? It consciousness is "the soul" and is independent of the physical brain, then it should not be possible.
More evidence that consciousness is a product of the brain. And you still have no evidence that there is such a thing as a "soul".

Consciousness IS a product of the brain, as long as we have a brain, but when we die and no longer have a brain, consciousness continues, since the soul is responsible for consciousness.

The evidence of the soul are its 'effects' upon the mind and body, but it cannot be proven that the soul is responsible for these effects since the soul is a mystery of God.

“Thou hast asked Me concerning the nature of the soul. Know, verily, that the soul is a sign of God, a heavenly gem whose reality the most learned of men hath failed to grasp, and whose mystery no mind, however acute, can ever hope to unravel.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 158-159

 

[CG Didymus]

We are animated by exchange of carbon-Di-oxide for oxygen in blood, and food in our stomach.

I don't want to read this whole thread, but if she's saying the brain needs the soul to function, then do other creatures that have brains have souls?

 

[CG Didymus]

You made specific claims about what the afterlife is like. You then claimed that you had made no such claims.

Hey KWED, what's it like where you live? Are there trees and birds? Is there a Sun and a Moon? I hope so. But I'm sure going to miss those things in the afterlife. Do you really think it's like that? No sunset, so I assume no moon... and since there's no sun, I guess there's no trees and birds. If it's not going to be like that, then I wonder what it will be like?

Oh, and I have more questions about what it is like where you live. Do you live in the mountains or the desert? In the country or in the city? Because if you live in the city, I'll know it's not like out in the country. Anyway, take care. As usual I'm enjoying your posts.

 

[Trailblazer]

I don't want to read this whole thread, but if she's saying the brain needs the soul to function, then do other creatures that have brains have souls?

Good question...
No, other animals do not have souls, they have animal spirits, and that is what enables their brains to function.

 

[Trailblazer]

That still does not explain what "living" means without a body.

I believe that in the spiritual world (heaven) the human reality, which is the soul, will have a spiritual body rather than a physical body.

“The answer to the third question is this, that in the other world the human reality doth not assume a physical form, rather doth it take on a heavenly form, made up of elements of that heavenly realm.”
Selections From the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, p. 194

There is no way for us to know what it will be like to be "living" without a physical body.
The soul will take on some kind of form, but we cannot know what that form will be like. It will be whatever form God decides we will have.

“The nature of the soul after death can never be described, nor is it meet and permissible to reveal its whole character to the eyes of men.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 156

I am. That is a usage of living that I understand, I take it that is not how you are using the word when you talk about living past our deaths? And that is fine. Words can and do have multiple usages. But until you can define your usage of 'living', you usage can quite literally have no meaning to me. You could substitute the word 'hgkjgkh' for 'living' and it would communicate just as much to me.

As I have said, I do not now what living past our deaths will be like in the spiritual world.
Life after death in the spiritual world is a mystery, and it is not something we could understand since it is so different from life in this world.

How is this any different from saying that demons cause epilepsy, or that the gremlins cause well working machinery to fail?

It is different because there is no reason to believe that demons or gremlins cause anything.
Of course, there is also no reason to believe that the soul causes anything either, not unless you believe in scriptures.

 

[ppp]

I believe that in the spiritual world (heaven) the human reality, which is the soul, will have a spiritual body rather than a physical body.

I don't know what spiritual means. And I would bet, based on my previous inter actions with you and other theists that you don't either. Can you define any of those words without using an undefined word?
What you have just told me is:

I believe that in the ]bdhebu] world [drcoxhrb] the human reality, which is the [yincn], will have a [dmakehpa] body rather than a physical body.

Same with the word living.
It seems to me that theists are telling me that they believe X. And when I ask what X is, y'all are looking at me and shrugging. So when it comes down is that you were telling me that you believe X exists but you have no idea what it is that you believe to exist'.

 

[Trailblazer]

I don't know what spiritual means. And I would bet, based on my previous inter actions with you and other theists that you don't either.

Can you define any of those words without using an undefined word?

I know what spiritual means, the definition is below:

Spiritual: concerned with or affecting the spirit or soul

“a spiritual approach to life”
“spiritual fulfillment”
“spiritual values”

Synonyms:
unearthly
unworldly

not concerned with the temporal world or swayed by mundane considerations
Spiritual - Definition, Meaning & Synonyms

Same with the word living.
It seems to me that theists are telling me that they believe X. And when I ask what X is, y'all are looking at me and shrugging. So when it comes down is that you were telling me that you believe X exists but you have no idea what it is that you believe to exist'.

No, I am telling you that telling me that I believe that X (soul) and Y (spiritual world) exist but X and Y are a mystery, and as such, it is impossible to describe what it will be like to be soul living in the spiritual world.

 

[ppp]

Can you define any of those words without using an undefined word?

I know what spiritual means, the definition is below:

Spiritual: concerned with or affecting the spirit or soul

“a spiritual approach to life”
“spiritual fulfillment”
“spiritual values”

Synonyms:
unearthly
unworldly

not concerned with the temporal world or swayed by mundane considerations
Spiritual - Definition, Meaning & Synonyms

You are not only attempting to define an undefined word with undefined words, but you are attempting to define an undefined word with itself.

The answer to my question is, No.

So when it comes down is that you were telling me that you believe X exists but you have no idea what it is that you believe to exist'.

I am telling you that telling me that I believe that X (soul) and Y (spiritual world) exist but X and Y are a mystery, and as such, it is impossible to describe what it will be like to be soul living in the spiritual world.

What about the description of X being a mystery to you means something other than you don't know what X is?