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Nothing Short Of Perfection

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
Dear Orontes :

I am in the midst of performing an experiment on the consequences of illogic and irrational thinking to try to understand Billiardsballs way of coming to conclusions.

For example : In post 231 Billiardsball concludes that neither you, nor I, I as mormons, actually represent what mormons believe (#237) and he, as a “non-mormon” feels qualified to tell you say what we actually believe : “being Mormon, you believe that Jesus kind of-sort of-maybe-saves us IF we also save ourselves”. I’d be lying if I said he was truthful. BUT,, if I hold my head just right and spin around and around in my office chair while drinking rockstar energy drink, it starts to make more sense. (try it….) It made me nauseated and so I had to stop.

The mormons responding here don’t believe Billiardsball is offering a true point to them. Katzpur asked him: “…since you are claiming Orontes believes this, would you mind directing me to the quote where he said this…

Billiardsball tells her : “Happy to do so—except there is no need.” (#248) but then he is unable to tell anyone where Orontes actually said this.

I would be lying if I said I thought Billiardsball could actually offer a source for this quote. BUT, but if you squint read hard (REAL hard) and pretend the page is written in pig-latin, while pressing on your eyeballs from the sides with your fingers, then one of Orontes posts seems to read : (and I quote) “Bildinglkc is a pokine amunka le boingo boingo”, which, of course means, “I am satan and have horns.” In some lexicon I recall hearing about. The point is, that I can see what motivates Billiardsballs claim about what Orontes REALLY believes if he is REALLY “mormon”. Cool huh?

In the same vein Orontes, Billiardsball tells us that you brought up the subject of a “non-atoning atonement”.
For example, you said :
1) People sin
2) I don't think Christ died simply to be an example. I hold that the atonement has real metaphysical consequences.

3) I don't think men can save themselves. Christ is an essential and indispensable element in any salvatory model. (Orontes) Post # 233

There, in response to your point : I don't think men can save themselves", Billiardsball concludes you think men can save themselves. And in response to your statement : "I hold that the atonement has real metaphysical consequences." Billiardsball concluded you are describing of a "non-atoning atonement". Cool, huh?

In response to this, Billiardsball asked : “What are the "metaphysical consequences" of a non-atoning atonement? “(post #235). I admit that I would be lying if I thought Billiardsball actually saw this description in your post. BUT, I lost my chex cereal decoder ring, and I ran out of rock star energy drink and the nurses say I have to clean up the vomit before I am allowed to spin in my chair again.

Orontes responded to Billiardsball : “I don't know what an non-atoning atonement is, other than it is self contradictory.” # 237

I'd be lying if I saw any logical connection between your logical statement and Billiardsballs irrational interpretation.
However, Here, it gets tricky. Do you actually BELIEVE Billiardsballs comment “non-atoning atonement” is contradictory, or are you just unwilling to think irrationally and illogically or try drugs? Hmmm? My point is, IF you will consider creative thinking, then this point CAN make sense…..Somewhere….In another universe……on another planet……somewhere……far away…. Ok. Point being made.

When asked about strange interpretation, Billiardsball then indicated YOU (Orontes) were the one who brought up this idea of a “non-atoning atonement”.

I’d be lying if I thought Billiardsball actually believes you brought up a “non-atoning atonement”.
Still, I am going to use this line ("non-atoning atonement) in a stage play about four nerds caught up in a tornado when their house drops on and kills a wicked witch who is a rationalist and has a sister.

Have you, Orontes, considered that, perhaps, you, as a mormon, don’t really know what you believe and that Billiardsball, as a non-mormon, knows what you believe better than you? Have you considered the reason to put words in your mouth might not be to create and support a sterotype and false impression, but some other reason?

I’d be lying if I said I saw any evidence of that.

I don't see the point of continuing if the conversation we are involved with is going to be an irrational, illogical, unhistorical, irrelevant discussion.

Clear
φιφιακτωω

This post, Clear, is a bit rambling, but I wrote already that I took Mormon doctrine for a non-atonement from Christ. Several have protested that I was in error, and I stand corrected--rather, Mormons believe Jesus died for us, but that we must do certain things or lose our salvation.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
First : Regarding the claim that the Big Bang somehow proves matter was made from “nothing”. The “Big Bang” theory does not prove matter was made from nothing, but rather the theory speculates as to the behavior of pre-existing form of material at the beginning of the universe. That is, it is a theory as to how a “thing” went “bang” (and not how “nothing” went “bang”). The theory describes how the behavior of this original form of matter at that time partly explains the behavior of matter since that time.


THE IMPORTANCE OF THE EARLY JUDEO-CHRISTIAN DOCTRINE OF CREATION FROM MATTER
Secondly, before we begin a discussion about the early Judeo-Christian belief about the creation of a material universe from matter, I simply wanted to make a few points as to why this early logical and rational belief of creation from "things" matters to and affects Christian theory and why in the subsequent age of theologians (i.e. the period after prophets and apostles died off), the theologians’ speculations would have evolved in different directions than if matter and “things” existed before a creation from “nothing”.


GOD’S PURPOSE IN CREATION - CONDITIONS UNDERLYING THE SPECULATIONS

Philosopher-theists speculate endlessly regarding God’s purpose in creating and populating the earth. I believe that the TYPE of speculations regarding God’s motive for creation are different between Philosopher-Christians who believe God created using "nothing " (ex-nihilo) and Philosopher-Christians who believe god created using pre-existing matter (chaotic matter).



A) SPECULATIONS REGARDING GOD’S MOTIVES IF HE CREATED OR ORGANIZED EVERYTHING FROM "NOTHING"

For "ex-nihilist" christians (those believing in "creation from ‘nothing’"), speculations regarding Gods Purpose in the creation and populating of earth seem vast and varied. The dominant theme of most (not all) of their speculations as to why a lone God would create and populate the earth (that I’ve read) relate to his “aloneness”.

Typical speculations as to God’s purpose in creation of the earth and mankind might include "God was Bored"; "God was lonely"; "The act of creation was a source of enjoyment for God" - "Mortality is a Game God plays for enjoyment -(like chess)", "God wanted ‘children’ "; God wanted to create ‘something to love’; "God wanted other creatures to be aware of his "grandeur", etc, etc, etc.

If any one of these speculations are correct, a repeated argument the philosophers bring against all of these speculations is that, if an omnipotent and Charitable God was able to create the entire end product, from nothing, and in a moment, then there was no need for the type of suffering and evil that accompanies this existence. In this model, existence of evil doesn’t help God reach his “goal” of creation if these speculations are correct. In this model, God is responsible in creating the evil and indescribable suffering as part of existence.

For example, If God’s purpose in creation was “relief from loneliness”, then why not create suitable “company” without having the creation undergo suffering or have great evil acts associated with his creation at all? Why not simply create the type of morally perfect “company” that was wanted from the very beginning? Or, If God simply enjoyed creating “things”, then why have evil be part of what he created?



B) SPECULATIONS REGARDING GOD’S MOTIVES IF HE CREATED OR ORGANIZED FROM ETERNALLY EXISTING MATTER

For "pre-existent" Christians (those believing in creation from eternally existing "chaotic material") the speculations seem to narrow considerably and the logic applied to these speculations is of a different character. A creation from eternally existing matter (which possesses it’s own innate characteristics) affects (and logically narrows) the principal speculations as to God’s purpose in creating and populating this earth.

For example: If there are other principles which co-exist eternally with God (such as matter of different types which have varying characteristics and capabilities or such as eternal Natural physical and moral laws, having their own innate characteristics.. etc), then “aloneness” is not necessarily a primary speculation for this type of Christianity, (In this model, God was not “alone” per se.) and there are other principles which explain the source of and the role of evil in God’s creation.

If speculations for these type of Christianities are correct, then the philosophers argument regarding unnecessary evil need not apply.


THE PURPOSE AND GOAL OF GOD IN CREATING AND POPULATING THE EARTH

Perhaps an example comparison will serve to clarify this principle:

“CCPA” was a poster from an ex-nihilo Christianity who, when asked to speculate WHY God created the universe, (post #6, a different thread). CCPAs’ speculation was that God created "to bring him glory”. In this specific example, God has a self-serving reason to create.

Katzpur, in pre-existent Christianity suggests, (post #2) that God created so that men’s “spirits would be able to advance” . In this specific example, God is not self-serving. (God doing something for them, and not for himself.)


Originally Posted by Katzpur

He saw fit to organize this highly refined matter into spirit beings and to set into motion a plan whereby these spirits would be able to advance in knowledge, power and glory. It strikes me as a completely unselfish course of action, and one that would be completely in keeping with His nature.


Do you see how the difference in underlying beliefs affect the speculation regarding God's purpose; how that affects the speculations as to God's character; and will affect other speculations that follow? Theologians, in their creation of religion and doctrine are also affected by base assumptions, interpretations, innate intelligence, religious insight, textual versions they are exposed to, and a host of other principles as they create religion for mass consumption.

Specific initial beliefs (whether right or wrong), affect subsequent speculations (in this case the speculation regards why God created and populated the earth). In the same way that creation is "self-serving" in one theological model, and creation is "a service to others" in another theological model, other speculations are affected by beliefs.

I think that it is the specific condition of aloneness of God” in ex-nihilo theologies that drive their frequent speculation that God created "in order to NOT be alone".

In pre-existent theologies, their beliefs do not drive them to make this sort of speculation as to God’s purpose in having created and populated the earth, since, in their theology, God is NOT "alone".

If a speculation is repeated, over a period of years, it tends to become a belief (perhaps even a doctrine or a dogma). Once it becomes a doctrine, it affects other speculations. (all of which adds up in our various theological models). I believe that this process is one of the many causes of the doctrinal evolution and doctrinal "shift" in christianity and probably all other religions.

For example, If a christian believes that God created and populated the earth "to bring himself glory", then does such a belief contribute to (or create) the “doctrine” that heaven will be a place of endless (and monotonous) giving glory to and praising of God? (Thus, having accomplished God's initial purpose of wanting to be "glorified"); Does heaven then become a place where an endless eternity is spent as a member of a heavenly choir that simply exists to sing praises (thus accomplishing the initial purpose of SIMPLY and EXCLUSIVELY “glorifying God”?)

Does the doctrine of God having created "to bring himself glory" relieve the philosophers concern as to why evil was part of “bringing himself glory”? If the later doctrine of creation from “nothing” drives creation of theology in one direction, then the earlier doctrine of creation from “matter” also drives the creation of theology, but not necessarily in similar directions.

Thus, a historical discussion of the abandonment of creation of matter from matter and the adoption of creation of matter from “nothing” is important theologically and affects how mankind create religious theory which others then believe, adopt, and teach.


Clear
φιφυειφυω

I did not read this post in detail, because it is so far off the OP it beggars description. Where are you going with this? Why is this not in a thread on creation?
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
Per the Greek on a linkage between the meaning of sin and perfection: This notion is fundamentally wrong. Hamartia (sin) and teleios (perfect) are completely distinct. Per Koine Greek hamartia doesn't convey a moral element of guilt. It ties in with missing the mark, failure to achieve a goal or defeat. Teleios refers to maturation. The attempt to combine perfection with sinlessness into a single concept is both bad linguistics and bad theology.

Not guilt? Why do NT writers talk about guilt, and why Tanakh talks about guilt, guilt offerings and blood-guilt?

Per your Romans reference: you have misunderstand the text. The scriptural reference you make illustrates the point. For one who understands Classical Greek rhetoric and the posture Paul is adopting, this verse does nothing to support your case. The law Paul references is the Law of Moses, not an abstract notion of metaphysical legalism. Paul is contending with Judification: having would be converts first become Jews a la the Law of Moses, before the Christian course would be available. Your reading of the Book of Romans is anachronistic. It doesn't relate to the Classical Mind for whom the text was written.

We’ve talked about this before in detail—but Romans 7 opens, “…I am writing to those who know the Law.” Paul was writing to Jews and to Gentiles in Romans, but the Jews had a Tanakh mindset and only somewhat of a classical mindset from post-exilic interaction with the Gentiles.

Per Matt. 24:13 whether one takes the verse as eschatological or no, doesn't detract from my point. The predicate 'endure' is noted as a requirement of the subject to be saved. Endure entails the effort or act(s) of the subject, thus it is a work.

Of course it matters. One who endures to the end of the tribulation period will see the Return of Christ, but millions of people have been saved, then died, who will never enter the tribulation period and so cannot endure any part of it. Are they not saved because they didn’t endure the tribulation?

Per priests: I'm not sure how you are defining priestly intercession. If you recognize a role for ritual in the salvatory process, then we have no argument. Ritual, includes a performer of the rite. You cite Christ's priestly role from Hebrews. This reinforces the point. No where in the text does it cite Christ is the only priest. Rather He is the High Priest, that necessarily entails other priests whose status the High Priest is over.

Do you know the verses proclaiming all believers as priests? This would not limit the priestly class to LDS members only.

…The point is deification has been part of Christianity from its earliest phase.

That is true IF it is in the Bible, which are the earliest Christian texts. It is not.

"“For He has given them power to become the sons of God

Yes, but I am not the only begotten Son of God.

And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Yes, I am a joint heir with the I AM Christ was God in eternity past. Deification cannot be a reward since the I AM always WAS. I cannot go back in time and be God when I was already a mere man.

Let me explain the posture I take when engaging you. We come from different Christian Traditions that do not agree. You assume a different interpretive stance when reading the Bible than I do. If I cite verse X, Y or Z it's likely you will say verse X means something I don't agree with and the reverse. This means we immediately come to a cross roads. I can spend time explicating the verse, but that usually means spending time on the hermeneutic, rather than the larger topic. Because of this, the tact I take is to appeal to early Christian understanding to shed light on how the Jesus Movement understood things. These understandings are not the Bible, but shed light on the meaning of the Bible from the perspective of early Christianity. Thus one can see what interpretive model of the Bible carries greater weight. Does that make sense?

…Sure does make sense, except for problems you repeat:

  1. Commentators are correct except for where they disagree with you.


  2. Your hermeneutics are not sound, quoting fragments of a verse here or there to “support” your point
If you want to bridge the gap in my understanding, stick to scripture.

Christ can make one perfect (which I reject)

So how do you become God without God making you perfect? Are you saying you make yourself perfect to become God instead? Or—the only logical alternative—you become an imperfect god someday?

Note 1: in a reply to another you mention creatio ex nihilo. Creatio ex nihilo is a product of the Third Century. It developed as Christians were trying to justify their faith vis-a-vis Stoics and Middle Platonists. It is not a stance derived from Hebrew Thought, but is a product of a Greco-Roman Mind. It is also bad logic.

Science agrees with me that no matter or energy may be destroyed or created. So please tell me via either logic or science how the matter got here—because the Bible says it was made at some point before in linear time. Thanks.

per Greek Myth and Zeus' philandering: all of Zeus' children were either gods, or demigods (depending on if the mother were a god or human).

But the Bible tells us that the true children of God were not born of fornication (including the Father with Mary).

You have mischaracterized my view and of Mormonism in general. That is poor form

It would be poor, and I apologize if I’ve offended you. But you’ve reiterated that Mormons believe what every other Christian sect, ever, has called heresy.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
Clear,

I would be far more impressed if you gave scriptural reasons for pre-incarnate spirits or pre-Creation Creations. Saying things like "But you can much better understand X and end arguments if you simply believe Y" is not a justification for me to believe Y.
 

Clear

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
POST ONE OF THREE

Billiardsball
: In describing the two issues at hand, i.e. the ancient Judeo-Christian doctrine that God created material things from matter and the belief that spirits of mankind existed prior to being born, I was not writing to you per se. Rather, I have been writing to forum members so that they understood the importance of these two doctrines. In early Christian worldviews, the atonement was part of God's plan in the beginning, thus a description of the basic and early principles allow us to understand the purpose of the atonement more clearly.

If I think you write something of importance that is rational and that has value for forum members, I will respond. Else, I think I will, simply demonstrate to forum members that ancient Judeo-Christians understood and believed in a material creation and that the doctrine that the spirits of mankind existed prior to birth was taught anciently. And then move into aspects of the ancient atonement model inside it's ancient context.


Katzpur : Thank you for the kind comment. I hope the early tradition of Moses in Midian, being taught by God was helpful to illustrate the simple principle that knowledge and understanding of prior conditions and events help explain current conditions and events.




FORUM MEMBERS : I hope that it made sense why the two ancient doctrines, Creation of material things from matter and the ancient doctrine that the Spirits of mankind existed prior to being born, were and are important and that these ancient doctrines affect the creation of religious theories in different ways than creation of matter from nothing, and creation of spirits at birth or after birth.

Since I’ve already given examples of their import and logical superiority, I think I will simply give evidence that the doctrines existed. Of the two doctrines, I think the existence of cognizant spirits of mankind is more important and will present it last.


THE CHRISTIAN DOCTRINE OF CREATION OF MATERIAL THINGS FROM MATTER

Though I already made the point that this doctrine is important and how it affects subsequent speculations, I do think this ancient doctrine can be considered from multiple perspectives. For example,

One can consider that the doctrine of creation from matter WAS taught anciently.
One can consider early Judao-Christian writings
One can consider the various translations and interpretations of scriptures applied to ex-nihilo
One can consider modern Christian writings
One can consider the motives and nature of Christian writings against creation from matter.
One can consider creation from nothing (ex-nihilo) as a stand-alone, rational argument.

Perhaps I can summarize these points in that order before turning to the existence of spirits of men before they were born :


1) THE DOCTRINE OF CREATION FROM MATTER WAS TAUGHT ANCIENTLY
Many ancients and early Christians UNDERSTOOD a creation out of pre-existing matter, and not ex-nihilo.

Justin Martyr, in his First Apology, says : “We have been taught that He in the beginning did of his goodness, for man's sake, create all things out of unformed matter” (ex amorphou hyles). First Apology, 49. I do not think this description is, in any way, unclear.

Philo mentions : "This cosmos of ours was formed out of all that there is of water, and air and fire, not even the smallest particle being left outside" (De Plantatione 2.6). Further, "when the substance of the universe was without shape and figure God gave it these; when it had no definite character God molded it into definiteness. . ." (De Somniis 2.6.45).

Justin Martyr, in discussing this preexistent primal matter (hyle), assures us, "we have learned" from our revelations was in the tradition of Clement (c. A.D. 96) who had praised God who "has made manifest (ephaneropoiesas) the everlasting fabric (aenaon sustasin) of the world."

Athenagoras, (despite his stress on the transcendence of God), explains concerning the preexistent Son: "He came forth to be the energizing power of things, which lay like a nature without attributes, and an inactive earth, the grosser particles being mixed up with the lighter."

Creation from matter is implicit throughout Greco-Roman literature of the time of Christianity's inception, and there is no indication in the Christian writings that they held a different view. On the contrary, the famous late nineteenth-century study by Edwin Hatch on the inroads of Greek philosophy into early Christianity describes the tacit but widespread assumption of the coexistence of matter with God.


2) EARLY JUDAO-CHRISTIAN WRITINGS
Some degree of confusion for non historians, comes from the early idiomatic use of terms such as “visible” and “invisible”. These terms do not mean “existing” and “non-existing”, merely that substances were seen as existing in different form. For example, when the prophet is told by divinity that “From invisible and visible substances I created man. “ (2nd Enoch 30:10), whether seen or unseen, both types of matter are considered “substances”.

In the Secrets of Enoch, 25.1-3, God says, "I commanded . . . that visible things should come from invisible . . . ."

Dodd, in “The Bible and the Greeks”, p. 111 explained that to the ancients, such creation meant organization of the elements, as the Codex Brucianus"Creation is organization" (Manuscript No 96) and it explains that first, there is matter. And what is done with the matter it that it is organized into things created. Cosmos MEANS order.

So, whether it is when “God said to Gabriel: “Go and fetch me dust from the four corners of the earth, and I will create man therewith.The Haggadah (The creation of Adam) or a description of creation is “like a fog forming in the unformed...The Kabbalah, the description is speaking of substance, whether formed and large, or unformed, chaotic and small pieces. It is still a material description.

The early Jewish Apocalypes of Abraham hails God as the one who brings order out of confusion, ever preparing and renewing worlds for the righteous. The Berlin (Mandaean) Papyrus says " At the same time, the great thought came to the elements in united wisdom, spirit joining with matter." Matter can be imbued with spirit, but it will always be undergoing change and processing.

Pistis Sophia says : "I (christ) called upon Gabriel from the midst of the worlds (aeons) along with Michael, pursuant to the command of my Father...and I gave to them the task of outpouring of the light and caused them to go down into matter unorganized (chaos) and assist Pistis Sophis"

So, whether one is reading from a Jewish Haggadah where God becomes angry and “…In his wrath at the waters, God determined to let the whole of creation resolve itself into Chaos again.” The Haggadah (The Second day) ch 3 or one reads early Christian literature where “… Mary stood up before them” and speaks of “God, exceeding great and all wise…who arranged the vault of heaven in harmony, who gave form to disorderly matter and brought together that which was separated.... (The Gospel of Bartholomew chapt two) the early witness tell us the ancients understood and believed in a material creation where chaotic substance was organized.

And I called out a second time into the very lowest things, and I said, “Let one of the invisible things come out visibly, solid 2nd Enoch 26And thus I made solid the heavenly circles. (Orbs)...And from the rocks I assembled the dry land; and I called the dry land Earth.”.2nd Enoch 28:1-2

Even 2 Maccabees, which is often used to SUPPORT ex nihilo, has Syriac recensions as well as some Greek manuscripts describing an organization of [chaotic] matter, which is also the explicit position of Wisdom of Solomon 11:17 where we read of God's hand which "created the world out of unformed matter (ktisasa ton kosmon ex amorphou hyles)," Even the "non-existent" cited in 2 Maccabees 7:28 is not absolute nothing, but rather is . . . the metaphysical substance . . . in an uncrystallized state." This relative "nonbeing" referred to a chaotic, shadowy state of matter before the world was made; as we might say in biblical terms, "without form and void."

The Early writings are full of references regarding how chaotic matter is used. The ancients understood that "At a new creation there is a reshuffling of elements " This particular 'restating' of the 'conservation of mass' is from Ben Sirach. But the principle is also found in the Odes of Solomon; it's in the Ginza; it's in the Mandaean Johannesbuch; it's in Berlin Manichaean; it's in the Pistis Sophia, and it's in the oldest and most impressive Coptic writings.

The point here is that these were common teachings and the ancients were NOT unaware of matter and how it was used in creation from chaotic matter (rather than the later doctrine of creation from "nothing").

TWO OF THREE FOLLOWS

 
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Clear

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
POST TWO OF THREE

3) ALTERNATE INTERPRETATION AND TRANSLATIONS OF PASSAGES FOR SCRIPTURE
Though religionists tend to get their views from similar sacred texts, they often come away with different interpretations of what is meant, and thus, with different beliefs regarding what they read.

FOR EXAMPLE GENESIS 1:1-2

Frank Cross (of DDS) concludes that it was the ex nihilo creation tradition itself which prompted the 1600's era translation of Gen. 1:1 found in the King James and similar versions. Other versions of the Bible have noticed the forcing within the translation and have NOT followed the wording of the King James. For example, according to The Interpreter's Bible, the Hebrew bere' sit would more properly be rendered "In the beginning OF" creation rather than simply "In the beginning."

Many other scholars agree in this. E.A. Speiser translates Gen 1:1 "When God set about to create heaven and earth, the world being then a formless waste. ." or, as Cross renders it "When God began to create the heaven and the earth, then God said, 'Let there be light.'" Thus the traditional translation of Gen. 1:1 as an independent statement, implying that God first created matter out of nothing, and then (verse 2.) proceeded to fashion the world from that raw material, is now widely questioned, and several recent translations have adopted the approach advocated by Speiser and Cross.

Spieser, who translated Gen 1:1 as above, then adds: "The question, however, is not the ultimate truth about cosmogony, but only the exact meaning of the Genesis passages which deal with the subject.. . . At all events, the text should be allowed to speak for itself."

Other modern versions which incorporate this usage include The New Jewish Version : "When God began to create the heaven and the earth, the earth being unformed and void. . . ."; similarly The Bible, An American Translation (1931); The Westminster Study Edition of the Holy Bible (1948); Moffat's translation (1935); and the Revised Standard Version (RSV), alternate reading, Stones Chumash (a midrashich distillation) follows the new wording, etc, etc.

The translation of the word "created" is under equal scrutiny. The Hebrew verb bara' of the opening verse "In the beginning God created ..." is, here translated "created", and in ex-nihilo tradition is usually reserved in the Old Testament for God's activity in forming the world and all things in it. However, synonymous terms and phrases scattered throughout the Hebrew scriptures exclude this word as evidence that only an ex nihilo creation is being described in Gen. 1. The most common of these synonyms are yasar, (to shape or form), fn and 'asah, (to make or produce).

In a study of the Hebrew conception of the created order, Luis Stadelmann insists that both bara', and yasar carry the anthropomorphic sense of fashioning, while 'asah connotes a more general idea of production. Throughout the Old Testament the image of creation is that of the craftsman fashioning a work of art and skill, the potter shaping the vessel out of clay, or the weaver at his loom. The heavens and the earth are "the work of God's hand." Thus to translate bara' as "to organize", or "to shape" or "to mold" etc are as valid as "to create", and none of these implies ex nihilo creation.

For example: "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth." and later he creates again "God created man in his own image; in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them." Gen. i: 27.

In both passages the Greek verb for "created" is identical, and if it’s usage in the first verse is not synonymous with it’s usage in the twenty-seventh, Moses fails to make this distinction. Violence is done to language when we affirm that the same word when used in expressing a continuous act of creation, signifies in the beginning of the act a creation out of nothing, (i.e. the earth) later on in the process then mean a simple molding of elements (i.e. Adam out of dust or clay).

In all these texts the word "figure" or "mold" may rightly be substituted for "formed" or "created." But we have already seen that "create" should have synonymous meaning when used in relation to the creation of the world, that it certainly has when the formation of a body for Adam is spoken of. As thus used, it is equivalent to the English word, "figure," and it is apparent that Genesis i: I, should be translated, "In the beginning the Gods shaped, fashioned or molded the heavens and the earth."

"Create", in different usages may signify to settle, found, build, create, generally to make, render, etc. In the following passages of the Bible the word is translated "create." "Create in me a clean heart." Psalms. li: 10. "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works." Eph. ii: 10. "Neither was the man created for the woman. I Cor. xi: 9. "Commanding to abstain from meats which God hath created," etc. I Tim. iv: 3. "For thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created." Rev. iv. II. None of these passages afford any foundation for the idea of a creation out of nothing.

The "creation" of a new heart is the "regeneration" of the old one. Our "creation" in Christ Jesus involves a "purification", and a "consecration" of powers to new purposes. God took a portion of the dust of the earth elements already in existence and out of this "created" man. Meats are "created" out of pre-existent substance.

The Harper's Bible Commentary reads: “As most modern translations recognize, the P creation account (1:1-2:4a) begins with a temporal clause ("When, in the beginning, God created"); such a translation puts Gen. 1:1 in agreement with the opening of the J account (2:4b) and with other ancient, Near Eastern creation myths. . . . The description of the precreation state in v.2 probably is meant to suggest a storm-tossed sea: darkness, a great wind, the water abyss . . . chaotic forces.

The KJT of Gen. 1:2, which renders the Hebrew as "void," has been used to support to the creation ex nihilo theory, whereas actually this word always occurs in the Old Testament in tandem with tohu ("formless"), describing a "formless waste," or the "chaos" common to most Near Eastern creation mythology The earth was tohu wabohu: "without form and void," as the Authorized (King James) Version renders it, "and darkness was upon the face of the deep (tehom)," i.e., the watery chaos (cf. 2 Pet. 3:5). This hardly signifies absolute nonexistence; rather it speaks of the formless primeval chaotic matter, the Urstoff out of which the Creator fashioned the world. If one DOES associate Gen. 1 with the ubiquitous creation stories of antiquity, it would more strongly support ruling out creation ex nihilo as the idea behind the biblical text.

"'Tohu wabohu' means the formless; the primeval waters over which darkness was superimposed characterizes the chaos materially as a watery primeval element, but at the same time gives a dimensional association: "tehom ('sea of chaos') is the cosmic abyss. . . . This declaration, then, belongs completely to the description of chaos and does not yet lead into the creative activity. . . ." Brown, Driver, and Briggs, A Hebrew and English Lexicon of the Old Testament (Oxford - Clarendon Press -, p. 26. Cf. von Rad, Genesis , p. 49) However, the Septuagint's rendition of the Hebrew tohu wabohu in Gen. 1:2 as aoratos kai akataskeuastos (unseen and unfurnished) "probably meant to suggest the creation of the visible world out of preexistent invisible elements" (Dodd, The Bible and the Greeks, p. 111).

Just as elsewhere in the Old Testament, when the Lord God "laid the foundations of the earth," his command brought response from the elements rather than effecting existence as such (Ps. 104:5-9; cf. Isa. 48:13), so also, admits von Rad (who DOES embrace ex nihilo), in Gen. 1 "the actual concern of this entire report of creation is to give prominence, form and order to the creation out of chaos," ( i.e., unorganized, chaotic matter). Accordingly, Speiser's extensive analysis of the Hebrew in the first verses of Genesis forces him (also an ex-nihilist), to concede "To be sure my interpretation precludes the view that the creation accounts say nothing about coexistent matter."( This is a strangely worded and reluctant admission...)[/i]

Often people will offer generic passages such as Heb 11:3 to support the idea of creation from nothing. For example, in the common English version the text is as follows: "Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made out of things that do appear." However, just as the translation in Genesis does not clearly support ex nihilo, all scriptures rendering the word "CREATE" such as used in Hebrews 11:3 is just as easily interpreted to refer to pre-existing matter.

As scholars consider words of the Greek text, one important word would be the word which is translated "framed" in this text. To show the word "Framed" supports ex nihilo, it must be shown that the term signifies to actually CREATE ex nihilo. But this cannot be done without forcing the text since the word is so often used in the sense of to "repair", to "restore" from breach or decay, to "mend", to "put in order", to "reform", to "appoint"; "perfect"; "adjust", or to "train" rather than to "create [i"ex nihilo").

Nowhere can we find the claim advanced that this Greek term, signifies "to create out of nothing". Our dictionary gives no such definition. If "framed" was, in this instance, taken out of a normal context and placed into a specific context to support creation out of nothing, the writer could have paused and clarified that in this instance the Greek for "framed" meant something different than the normal ussage of "to adjust, adapt, knit together, restore, or put in joint,". But this he does not do, but rather he leaves the sense of the sentence to the sense that is common for his readers.

The next words requiring special attention are which are translated "the worlds." Such, however, is not their real meaning at all. The latter is compounded of two words the first signifying "always," and the other "being" The Greek terms used to express forever, forever and forever, everlasting, eternal and eternity, are all derived from this same source, and thus it is more likely that the writer, by metonomy, used "the eternities" for "the worlds." This fact is very important, since the metonomy requires that which is signified by any certain term must bear some distinct relation or resemblance to that thing it signifies. If "the eternities" mean "the worlds,", then something about the latter must be eternal

Scriptures such as Heb. 11: 3, do not teach the creation of all things, "out of nothing" but rather it implies that God, by the power of faith, applied order and harmony upon pre-existing elements of the world; and that these visible creations were not made by material agencies which are seen (such as tools of men), but rather they are created by the power of an invisible faith which is not seen, or, does not appear.

Furthermore, in Rom. 9:20-23 Paul himself employs the "potter-vessel image" of Isa. 29:16, while 2 Pet. 3:5 reminds us that the earth "was formed out of water" (RSV)–the primeval chaos, or "deep" of Gen. 1:2 Such considerations coordinate New Testament writers with those of the Old when they referred to the creation. What this means for the present discussion is that no one in authority had yet taught of a creation "out of nothing."

POST THREE OF THREE FOLLOWS
 

Clear

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
POST THREE OF THREE

4) MODERN CHRISTIAN WRITINGS

Foerster, in Theological Dictionary, 3:1010. Relates that "The idea of a command presupposes the existence of ministering and obedient power to carry out the will to create." "It would be wrong," the editors of the New Jerusalem Bible say of Genesis 1:1, "to read the metaphysical concept of 'creation from nothingness' into the text."

"The Hebrew words conventionally rendered 'create,' " notes T. H. Gaster, "though they came eventually to be used in an extended, metaphorical sense, are derived from handicrafts and plastic arts, and refer primarily to the mechanical fashioning of shapes, not to biological processes or metaphysical bringing into existence."


They originally denoted actions such as to cut out or pare leather, to mold something into shape, or to fabricate something. Thus, it is hardly surprising that the Bible can describe creation as "the work of [God's] hands." (And it scarcely needs to be pointed out that the presupposition underlying such terms and such a description is anthropomorphic in the extreme.)

"Throughout the Old Testament," writes Keith Norman, "the image is that of the craftsman fashioning a work of art and skill, the potter shaping the vessel out of clay, or the weaver at his loom."

The drama of God's creating by organizing chaos is thoroughly treated by Jon D. Levenson, (a prior Albert A. List Professor at Harvard): "Although it is now generally recognized that creation ex nihilo . . . is not an adequate characterization of creation in the Hebrew Bible, the legacy of this dogmatic or propositional understanding lives on and continues to distort the perceptions of scholars and lay persons alike."


Richard Sorabji concludes: "There is no clear statement in the Bible, or in Jewish-Hellenistic literature, of creation out of nothing (in a sense which includes a beginning of the material universe). On the contrary, such a view was invented by Christians in the second century a.d., in controversy with the Gnostics."

David Winston concurs. Winston notes that the notion was first expressed by the Christian Neoplatonist Tatian and by Theophilus. Moreover, the Bible contains clear statements of creation out of chaos. Job chapters 28 and 38 refer to God bringing order out of preexisting chaos. As I discussed, 1Gen. 1:1 indicates a creation out of chaos.

It would seem, in fact, that the notion of creation from nothing is not clearly taught by anybody until well past the period of primitive Christianity (approx 100 a.d.), that it was a non-issue for the earliest Christians, that it does not come to dominate theological thinking and writing even for some period beyond that, and that it must be "read into" early Jewish and Christian texts if it is to be found there at all.



5) THE NATURE OF THE EARLIEST WRITINGS AGAINST CREATION FROM MATTER
In fact, the later rash of arguments IN FAVOR of creation from nothing near the end of the second century points to the newness of the doctrine of creation from nothing. For example, Tertullian's tracts (he is against the doctrine of creation from matter) especially adds to the evidence since his argument FOR creation from nothing was against established beliefs within his Church. His tract was directed against a fellow Christians and not against non-christian Platonists.

Tertullian himself concedes that creation out of nothing is not explicitly stated in the scriptures, but merely asserts that since it is not denied either, the silence on the matter implies that God does have the power to create ex nihilo, since (for him), it seemed more logical.

There was a time however when the idea of a creation ex nihilo was being discussed in Christian intellectual circles. For example, Clement of Alexandria himself seems aware of the difference between an absolute creation out of nothing and creation out of primal matter in at least one passage (where he does not view it as crucial to orthodoxy). But in his "Hymn to the Paedogogus" he clearly favors the view of creation from preexistent material:

O King. . . .Maker of all,
who heaven and heaven's adornment by the Divine Word
alone didst make;. . . according to a well-ordered plan;
out of a confused heap who didst create
This ordered sphere,
and from the shapeless mass of matter
didst the universe adorn. . .
.


Eusebius says (in trying to discourage the doctrine of creation from matter) that ”...it is unholy to say that matter is unbegotten...” or was only organized at the creation. Notice the preaching he was trying to stop - that matter was not created and was only organized at the creation. It wasn't created out of nothing; it was organized. He says that's what the early church taught, (but HE felt it was wrong to say this and was trying to stamp out the doctrine). Plato's Demiurge, (which remarkably resembles the "Word" (logos) in John 1:1-14), was the maker of the world (but even Plato's Demiurge created the world out of preexistent eternal material). (Timaeus 27d-29e, 53a-56c)


Athenagoras, in his earlier Plea for the Christians to Marcus Aurelius and Commodus still taught a creation by God from preexisting matter, on the analogy of a potter and his clay. He explicitly states God as an artificer (demiourgos) requires matter.

Justin describes God's creative role to be that of a giver of forms and shapes to matter already present seems so natural to him that the idea of creation from pre-existing matter that he seems never to have regarded it as a problem.

Origen (who DID, initially believe in creation from matter) in later teachings against it admits that it WAS taught at the Christian school in alexandria at an earlier time by earlier and distinguished christians. Origen, (First Principles 2.1.4), expressed his surprise that "So many distinguished men" have believed in uncreated matter.

Thomas rogers (In Milton's De Doctrina Christiana), notes that the Great Milton, (who knew Hebrew and things Jewish), reasons that “neither the Hebrew, nor the Greek, nor yet the Latin verb for create can possibly signify "create out of nothing" (Christian Doctrine , 975-76).

I believe that the idea of "creation from nothing" is introduce in bits and pieces in the second century and the campaign for the doctrine to achieve pre-eminence over the doctrine of creation from matter achieved more popularity from that time onward.

I think that Sorabji and Winston were correct; that the evolution toward the adoption of Ex Nihilo was used partly as a premise to avoid the taint of "cosmism" (which the Gods in surrounding religions were subject to) (i.e. the idea that God worked with matter, processed it, adapted it, and used it as a workman, and artisan).

What marks the fourth century, as Alfoldi puts it, is "the victory of abstract ways of thinking-the universal triumph of theory, which knows no half measures. The Gnostic idea of the body as a prison is entirely at home with the doctors of the church. They love it because matter is vile."

Groucho Marx (paraphrasing) joked that : "I wouldn’t join any club which would consider a person like me for membership." In strange logic, I wonder if people don’t tell themselves "I can’t possibly believe in any sort of God that can be understood." and thus pile mystery upon mystery onto their definition of God (and spirit, and matter) until they truly believe such things cannot BE understood.

I believe that the historians are correct regarding the great motive behind ex-nihilo was the neo-platonic philosophy that matter was too vulgar and too common for a "great" and "extraordinary" God to simply USE and MANIPULATE. Ex-nihilo elevated him to a God that NOW, can create something out of nothing, as though such an embellishment somehow made him greater than he was. Just as children brag "My dad can beat up your dad", the christians wanted a reason to claim "My God is better than your God. Mine doesn’t need matter to create". (Whereas the other Gods did because their traditions had them creating out of matter.

This eschewing of association of God and matter continues in our days. for example; The Great Jesuit H.A. Brongers says that God "just thinks" and all is there at once (though he forgets the "process" of creation that took TIME"). He claims that the idea of God working matter, using something already there is horrifying because that deprives him of all his divinity (Though no one explains just HOW that logic works...). His explanation is that "It involves him with the physical world". So what? Whether ex-nihilo, or from matter, God IS involved with the physical world that he made and placed us in.



6) CONSIDERATION OF EX-NIHILO AS A RATIONAL ARGUMENT

Regarding ex-nihilo, there can be no appeal upon purely rational grounds. Ex Nihilo would be debatable were there in existence a self-evident maxim that all things were created out of nothing; but no such proposition was ever defended as a self-evident truth. It owes its origin purely to religious influences rather than any scientific or geological influence.

Any an attempt to support ex nihilo by appeal to the rationality of this principle amounts simply to a question of the rational faculties of mankind in forming rational judgments. Creation from nothing on a purely rational basis denies the correctness of intuitive convictions and demolishes all criteria for judging between the right and the wrong

Once religion embraces one error (such as ex-nihilo), then one must embrace other errors. That religion must then create many other erroneous justifications as to why the Christian God defies natural law and why he defies scientific knowledge in so many ways (in this case, The doctrine defies the scientific doctrine that matter cannot be created or destroyed); and places Christianity into a position of opposition to a world of scientific knowledge, when the religious truth about matter is in harmony with the laws of matter, not in opposition to those laws.

Such doctrinal confusion ultimately cannot BE explained or even defended and the religionist who believes it is left reflexively to retreat to the religious mental bunker of statements such as "Mysterious are the ways of God" when their doctrines such as ex-nihilo are so incongruous with the real world.

Though the ancient doctrine of Creation of a material universe from matter is important, I think the existence of the spirits of mankind before birth is more important to theological thought and it's abandonment causes more philosophical problems than adoption of magical creation from "nothing" did. I'll move on to the spirits of mankind and the ancient belief that these spirits existed before they were born.

Clear
φισεσεφυω
 
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leibowde84

Veteran Member
Why don't we begin with # 2. You start. Who else in the past or present, other than the biblical Jesus, was or is perfect, meaning they never say or do anything wrong, and never make any mistakes?

Thanks.
I agree that no one I know of presently is perfect, but I am more concerned with the first point.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
I agree that no one I know of presently is perfect, but I am more concerned with the first point.

Good. Let us proceed to the next point--who do you know other than Jesus who claims to be as perfect as Jesus--loving all, giving all, sacrificing all, answering all, above all, all in all...
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
If I think you write something of importance that is rational and that has value for forum members, I will respond. Else, I think I will, simply demonstrate to forum members that ancient Judeo-Christians understood and believed in a material creation and that the doctrine that the spirits of mankind existed prior to birth was taught anciently. And then move into aspects of the ancient atonement model inside it's ancient context.

Perhaps you will respond to what I've noticed, that again you have posted three lengthy discourses to justify your beliefs, and only two Bible verses--and those with with a minority, alternate rendering--that is likely a result of translator's bias--since you are accusing the translation of following an ex nihilo bias, yet the verse 1-2 age gap theory was surely existent when your odd-man-out translator had a go!

Have the Jewish people ever translated it "the Earth was waste"? Are you that blithely unaware of the rigor (and review of Jewish traditional translations) that Bible translators used in forming the NAS, RSV, etc.?

and that these ancient doctrines affect the creation of religious theories in different ways than creation of matter from nothing

Yes, Clear, your doctrines affect your religious theories, which is why I continue to urge you to listen to the scriptures, not Joseph Smith, or heretical viewpoints coming CENTURIES after Jesus walked the Earth. Repent!
 

Clear

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Perhaps because a poster had denied the doctrine of creation from existing matter had existed, my multiple posts were more than was needed to prove it's existence and it's popularity and orthodoxy in early Judeo-Christianity and so I will offer a smaller introduction to the sister doctrine of creation of mankind from existing spirits and offer more data as needed. - I might also point out that the book of Enoch PRE-DATES the New Testament and is an OLD-Testament era document. Clement, a colleague of the Apostle Peter writes his letters at the same time John is writing. The claim that such documents are separated from the early Jesus movement are simply incorrect. (some documents ARE separated by many years, but not the earliest ones).

The early doctrine of Existence of Spirits of Mankind before they were born into mortality.

Since the early Judeo-Christian doctrine of creation from matter demonstrated the belief that certain things existed before creation of the earth, then it is only logical that other things may have existed as well. As I mentioned, the early Judeo-Christian textual witnesses also describe the early doctrine of existence of the spirits of mankind before they were born.

Whether the doctrine comes from an early Christian text (Recognitions) when the Apostle Peter, speaking to Clement regarding the plan of God which God "announced in the presence of all the first angels which were assembled before Him. Last of all He made man whose real nature, however, is older and for whose sake all this was created." (Recognitions) or whether the doctrine is taught in Jewish Texts (Haggadah) where it was taught that “…Instead of being the last, man is really the first work of creation...With the soul of Adam the souls of all the generations of men were created. They are stored up in a promptuary, in the seventh of the heavens, whence they are drawn as they are needed for human body after human body.”, the early doctrine of pre-birth existence of the spirits of mankind is woven throughout the earliest Judeo-Christian literature.



MULTIPLE JUDAO-CHRISTIAN TEXTS DESCRIBE PRE-MORTAL EXISTENCE AND IT’S RELATIONSHIP TO PRESENT CONDITIONS

Many, many of the earliest Judao-Christian sacred Texts, relate the expansive doctrine of the pre-mortal realm and the nature of spirits there and God’s purposes for creation. The theme of pre-creation and what happened there is written into the early sacred texts, their hymns contain the doctrine; virtually ALL of the ascension literature contains the doctrine, the war in heaven texts certainly contain the doctrine; the earliest liturgies contain the doctrine; the midrashic texts contain the doctrine, the Jewish Haggadah contains the doctrine, the Zohar contains it; the testament literature is full of it. One simply cannot READ the earliest sacred Judao-Christian texts without reference to this early Christian doctrine. This vast early literature is part of the context for early christians and illuminates their understanding of biblical texts that reference this pre-creation time period and what happened there. For examples :

Inasmuch as these are HISTORICAL texts one must try to read the words in the ancient context. For example when Adam's spirit (in abbaton text) is placed into his body and be thereby becomes a man, he exclaims that he is "created" into another form. In the ancient context, he is referring, NOT to his spirit (which obviously did exist since it talked and communicated and did things), but the placing of his spirit into a body is the creation of mortal MAN.

Enoch, in his vision of pre-creation heaven, relates seeing the spirits that have populated and will populate the earth during it’s existence : ”... I saw a hundred thousand times a hundred thousand, ten million times ten million, an innumerable and uncountable (multitude) who stand before the glory of the Lord of the Spirits. (1st Enoch 40:1)

The great scribe Enoch is commanded by the angel to : “... write all the souls of men, whatever of them are not yet born, and their places, prepared for eternity. 5 For all souls are prepared for eternity, before the composition of the earth.” (2nd Enoch 23:4-5)
In his vision the angel bids Enoch, “Come and I will show you the souls of the righteous who have already been created and have returned, and the souls of the righteous who have not yet been created.”

After seeing various pre-existent souls, the ancient midrashic explanation is given us by himself Enoch regarding these many souls says : “the spirit shall clothe itself in my presence” refers to the souls of the righteous which have already been created in the storehouse of beings and have returned to the presence of god; and “the souls which I have made” refers to the souls of the righteous which have not yet been created in the storehouse.” (3rd Enoch 43:1-3)

The vast ascension literature, describes the pre-creation realm of spirits. Abraham, in his ascension Vision describes the unnumbered spirits he sees, many of whom are waiting to come into mortality. The angel says to Abraham : “Look now beneath your feet at the firmament and understand the creation that was planned. Among other things Abraham says “I saw there a great crowd of men and women and children, half of them on the right side of the portrayal, and half of them on the left side of the portrayal.”... He asks : “Eternal, Mighty One! What is this picture of creation?” 2 And he said to me, “This is my will with regard to what is in the council and it became good before my face (i.e. according to his plan).. “These who are on the left side are a multitude of tribes who existed previously...and through you. some (who have been) prepared for being put in order (slav” restoration”), others for revenge and perdition at the end of the age....those on the right side of the picture are the people set apart for me of the people with azazel; these are the ones I have prepared to be born of you and to be called my people (The Apocalypse of Abraham 21:1-7 and 22:1-5 and 23:1-3)

The doctrine of pre-mortal existence of the spirits within men permeates the biblical text as well. A knowledge of this simple principle explains and underlying so many of the quotes in many other texts as well. In the Old testament it was said : “Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. (ecclesiates 12:7). This principle is mirrored in multiple other early Judao Christian texts as well : When God the Father commands the son to “Go, take the soul of my beloved Sedrach, and put it in Paradise.” The only begotten Son said to Sedrach, “give me that which our Father deposited in the womb of your mother in your holy dwelling place since you were born.” (The Apocalypse of Sedrach 9:1-2 and 5).

When the Son finally DOES take the Soul of the Mortal Sedrach, he simply takes it back to God “where it came from. God’s statement to the prophet Sedrach is simply a rephrase of what God said in Old Testament Ecclesiastes 12:7...” and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.” This principle is repeated in this same ancient usage in many of the ancient sacred texts from the earliest periods.

“Jesus said, “Blessed are the solitary and elect, for you will find the Kingdom. For you are from it, and to it you will return.” (THE GOSPEL OF THOMAS v 49)

Therefore, fear not death. For that which is from me, that is the soul, departs for heaven. That which is from the earth, that is the body, departs for the earth from which it was taken.” (The Greek Apocalypse of Ezra 6:26 & 7:1-4)

The Early Christian usage of Ecclesiates 12:7 was used in this same way by the Apostle Peter as he explained to Clement that "This world was made so that the number of spirits predestined to come here when their number was full could receive their bodies and again be conducted back to the light." (Recognitions)

In this same ancient context, the question God asked Job; “Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth?”; was NOT simply rhetorical, but it was a REMINDER :

"Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? (Job 38:4-7)

In this early Judao-Christian context, Job KNEW the answer when God asked where Job was when God laid the foundations of the earth “and all the sons of God shouted for joy”. The texts are explicit that the spirits were taught regarding God’s plan to send the spirits of men to earth. They knew they would undergo a fall of Adam and Of the pre-mortal Redeemer. The savior describes this period of time to the ancient Prophet Seth when sons of God shouted for Joy. The redeemer said regarding this time period before creation in a assembly of jubilant spirits : “And I said these things to the whole multitude of the multitudinous assembly of the rejoicing Majesty. The whole house of the Father of Truth rejoiced that I am the one who is from them.... And they all had a single mind, since it is out of one. They charged me since I was willing. I came forth to reveal the glory to my kindred and my fellow spirits.” (The second treatise of the Great Seth)

In explaining the relationship the pre-mortal realm of spirits, to the current time when individuals do as they please, unhampered (as it were), by a remembrance of pre-mortal relationships, the messiah remarked : Quote: “After we went forth from our home, and came down to this world, and came into being in the world in bodies, we were hated and persecuted, not only by those who are ignorant, but also by those who think that they are advancing the name of Christ, since they were unknowingly empty, not knowing who they are, like dumb animals. They persecuted those who have been liberated by me, since they hate them...” (The second treatise of the Great Seth)

post two of two follows
 
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Clear

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
POST TWO OF TWO

The early Christian doctrine of Pre-mortal existence of spirits removed arbitrariness out of the accusation that God himself created spirits unequally. IN this ancient model, the spirits are partly responsible for their own nature upon entering this life. Instead of arbitrarily creating spirits with defects (the very defects for which spirits may be punished for later), in this early christian context, the Lord creates the body in relationship to certain characteristics the spirit has already obtained (or did not obtain) in it’s heavenly abode over vast periods of time. For example, Napthali explains this to his sons from the testament literature :

For just as a potter knows the pot, how much it holds, and brings clay for it accordingly, so also the Lord forms the body in correspondence to the spirit,and, because the Lord knows and has known the spirit over eons, “ the Lord knows the body to what extent it will persist in goodness, and when it will be dominated by evil. For there is no form or conception which the Lord does not know since he created every human being according to his own image.” (Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs - Napthali 2:2-5)

In the context of the spirit of man existing long before other spirits, Jewish Haggadah relates that Instead of being the last, man is really the first work of creation...With the soul of Adam the souls of all the generations of men were created. They are stored up in a promptuary, in the seventh of the heavens, whence they are drawn as they are needed for human body after human body.” The Haggadah (The Soul of Man)


This it the very same teaching the Apostle Peter taught the Christian convert Clement
. The Apostle Peter tells the young christian convert Clement about the pre-earth council and man’s place within this plan : "which (plan) He [God the Father] of his own good pleasure announced in the presence of all the first angels which were assembled before Him. Last of all He made man whose real nature, however, is older and for whose sake all this was created." (Recognitions)

The principle that man’s spirit pre-exists the creation was one of the FIRST things the Apostle Peter teaches Clement. I believe there is a reason the Apostle Peter taught the principle of Pre-Existence to Clement at an early stage in Clements conversion to Christianity. Perhaps, for such theists, the key to understanding what God is doing with mankind is contained inside of the concept that we are eternally spiritual.

Many early Judao-Christian texts are quite explicit in explaining the doctrines underlying the New Testament Theology on this subject. For example : Speaking of the souls of men and the manner after which they are sent from their heavenly dwelling place to earth, the Haggadah relates : “The soul and body of man are united in this way: When a woman has conceived...God decrees what manner of human being shall become of it – whether it shall be male or female, strong or weak, rich or poor, beautiful or ugly, long or short, fat or thin, and what all it’s other qualities shall be. Piety and wickedness alone are left to the determination of man himself. “Then God makes a sign to the angel appointed over the souls, saying, “Bring me the soul so-and-so, which is hidden in Paradise, whose name is so-and-so, and whose form is so-and-so.” The angel brings the designated soul, and she bows down when she appears in the presence of God, and prostrates herself before him.”

Occasionally the spirit is reluctant to leave the untainted pre-mortal heaven for an earth where she knows her existence will be more difficult as she gains her moral education by coming to earth. In such accounts, God is NOT angry but the text says “ God consoles her. The text relates God telling the soul that Quote: “The world which I shall cause you to enter is better than the world in which you have lived hitherto, and when I created you, it was only for this purpose.

The entire chapter regarding the soul of man discussed in detail what happens with spirits before they enter the body and it relates their forgetting of their prior preparation and existence with God. (I might mention that souls anciently are all described in the female gender - like ships are - in modern parlance)

Such principles in the Haggadic text (which is related to the talmudic history) is mirrored in several other texts. For example, the Zohar confirms the doctrine as it relates essentially the same description. : “At the time that the Holy One, be blessed, was about to create the world, he decided to fashion all the souls which would in due course be dealt out to the children of men, and each soul was formed into the exact outline of the body she was destined to tenant. Scrutinizing each, he saw that among them some would fall into evil ways in the world. Each one in it’s due time the Holy One, be blessed, bade come to him, and then said: “Go now, descend into this and this place, into this and this body.” Yet often enough the soul would reply: “Lord of the world, I am content to remain in this realm, , and have no wish to depart to some other, where I shall be in thralldom, and become stained.” Whereupon the Holy One, be blessed, would reply: “Your destiny is, and has been from the day of thy forming, to go into that world.” Then the soul, realizing it could not disobey, would unwillingly descend and come into this world. (The Zohar - The Destiny of the Soul)

In very symbolic language, the Zohar relates the creation of the souls in heaven to the point that they become formed and cognizant and take on characteristics they will keep with them when they are placed into bodies at birth, even to the point of having gender. Speaking of these fully developed souls it says : “the soul of the female and the soul of the male, are hence preeminent above all the heavenly hosts and camps.” The question in the sacred text is then asked : It may be wondered, if they [the souls] are thus preeminent on both sides, why do they descend to this world only to be taken thence at some future time? “This may be explained by way of a simile: A king has a son whom he sends to a village to be educated until he shall have been initiated into the ways of the palace. When the king is informed that his son is now come to maturity, the king, out of his love, sends the matron his mother to bring him back into the palace, and there the king rejoices with him every day. [...]Speaking of those left behind who mourn it was taught “Withal, the village people weep for the departure of the king’s son from among them. But one wise man said to them: ‘Why do you weep? Was this not the king’s son, whose true place is in his father’s palace and not with you?...’ “If the righteous were only aware of this, they would be filled with joy when their time comes to leave this world. For does it not honor them greatly that the matron comes down on their account, to take them into the King’s palace, where the King may every day rejoice in them?....And so, happy are the righteous and in the world to come, ... (THE ZOHAR - A SEAL UPON YOUR HEART)

In this sort of context, the experiences in mortality are seen as part of an education meant, partly, to teach mankind the difference between good and evil (and the disastrous consequences of evil), and allowing them, by their own experiences, to learn to master moral laws and social rules which will prepare them to live in a social heaven in eternal harmony and unity forever. Those who will not learn to live in harmony with others, cannot be allowed to live in that heaven with others who live higher moral laws.
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THE LOSS OF MANY EARLY DOCTRINES


The centuries following the death of Christ were described by a logia of Jesus in the Gospel of Thomas as follows : “Jesus said, “The kingdom of the [father] is like a certain woman who was carrying a [jar] full of meal. While she was walking [on the] road, still some distance from home, the handle of the jar broke and the meal emptied out behind her [on] the road. She did not realize it; she had noticed no accident. When she reached her house, she set the jar down and found it empty.

This logia is one of many sad descriptions of the failed attempt to pass on the doctrines and traditions of the early Christianities to later generations, however, in the last days, when one looks inside of modern Christian Churches, one finds that much of the doctrinal substance that gave the early Church it’s value, is no longer to be found in it. The modern Christians have lost much of the precious knowledge for which the agnostics and philosophers have been clamoring and debating over for 1700 years.

That was part of the reason that a restorationist movement to re-adopt original Christian doctrine and it’s early understanding and interpretations intrigued me initially and continues to amaze me as I continue to discover the rational and logical nature of the earliest Christian doctrines that exist in the earliest textual witnesses of what Christianity taught and the atonement of Jesus from the early Christian interpretations.

HOW DOES THE LOSS OF EARLY DOCTRINES AFFECT MODERN CHRISTIANITY COMPARED TO ANCIENT CHRISTIANITY - AN EXAMPLE
As a comparison example, can anyone in the forum offer data as to the origin of Satan and the evil associated with him? What does modern Christianity know about this versus early Christianity? The doctrine was a major “cross roads” doctrine which early texts from all three major Abrahamic religions (Jew, Christian, Muslim) agreed upon in their early texts.

For example :

Billiardsball, (Or any other poster who is willing to offer an example) You may be more in touch with modern Christian theory than myself. What data can you give us concerning the origin of Lucifer, his motives and reasoning for becoming an enemy to God and the war in heaven and Lucifers motives and relationship to the fall of mankind and his continued status as an enemy to mankind?


Clear
φισεδρφιω
 
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Clear

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Orontes :

Regarding your point that you are trying to make to Billiardsball as he attempts to re-define “perfection” as “sinlessness”.

You are certainly correct that the two words are not the same thing and the term used for perfection in Greek New Testament is, in the main, a form of τελειος (e.g. Matt 5:48 “perfect”). I think the main motivation for anyone to hold onto error regarding this word (especially in an age when anyone can look up this term on line) is simply an attempt to support a religious theory since your correct description of it’s actual meaning is quite clear.

The concept of a thing becoming “mature or “having reached it’s mature / end state” or become “full-grown” is the actual usage of the term in Koine Greek anciently. Multiple examples from early papyri demonstrate this correct usage.

For example, it is used in P Oxy III. 485.30 (178 a.d.) in referring to individuals mature enough to enter into a marriage contract (“τελιον ουσα[ν] προς βιου κοινωνιαν [αν]δρι”) and in II.238.7,15 in referring to “women who have attained maturity” being mistresses of their own persons (and thus able to remain with their husbands or not, according to their own choice) (“τας ηδη τελειας γυναικας εαυτων ειναι κυριας....”).

The word was used in describing animals who had reached maturity. In BGU IV. 1067.12 of 101 a.d., it’s use in Koine Greek was in describing “full-grown roosters” (“αλεκταρων τελειων...”), and in describing not only 4 roosters but eight “laying hens in perfect (i.e. mature – egg-laying) condition in P Oxy VI 909.18 (of 175 a.d.) (“αλεκτρυονων τελειων τεσσαρων ορνειθων τελειων τοκαδων οκτω”).

One described trees in the same way. For example, the Papyrus Tebt II 406.12 of 266 a.d. describes “fourteen acacia-trees in good condition” using the term. (e.g. ακανθας αριθμω τελειας δεκατεσσαρας…”) to describe them as able to bear fruit (i.e. “mature”).

Similar uses of this term τελειος are applied to descriptions of a “Theban Mill” that is in “perfect condition” (P Land IX 1207.9 of ii – iii a.d.) and to describe “a complete lampstand” ( P. Tebt II. 406.12 of 266 a.d.)

The point is, that the ancient usage was not speaking of “sinless roosters” or “sinless hens” or “sinless mills" or "sinless lampstands”. The term τελειος, which is rendered “perfect” in English Bibles, was used to describe things which are in a finished, or mature state, or having all of the characteristics which a thing is expected to have. It was not a term meaning “sinless”.

Kudos to you for knowing this historical point.

Clear

P. S. the Sar Shalom (prince of Peace) Mesianic Jews have produced a New Testament in Hebrew and I noticed the word for "perfect" in Matt 5:48 uses a form of שלם (Shalam) which has a similar meaning to Greek τελειος. That is, it means, "to be entire" (i.e. sound and safe) or to be "completed, finished", "at peace". (It's the Jewish greeting : "Shalom"). I have considered it's relationship to גמל ("gamal") which also applies to a maturation, such as the "ripening" of fruit, but it's meaning of "weaning" as the weaning of a child has implications and meaning for a process of "moral maturation" ( i.e. perfection / maturation / moral weaning / τελειος) as well.

Good luck and I hope your spiritual journey is good Orontes.
 
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BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
We should seek conciliation and solid ground to share. Would you accept either or both of the following?

1. We must be perfectly holy to be in Heaven/have eternal life on Earth

2. We must be perfectly moral to be in Heaven/have eternal life on Earth

After all, if we argue in the next world like we argue on this thread, it's just not Heaven. Some of your claims have upset me, and I'm sure, vice versa. We simply cannot even argue in a perfect place to be part of that perfection. In the utopia that is coming, surely you agree, we will be changed.

Thank you.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
Donald Trump makes those kinds of claims a lot.

I've never heard Donald Trump claim all are morally/lovingly inferior to Jesus Christ. I'd be shocked if he had.

What I am trying to establish is:

1. It would be logical for God to send a holy text(s) since all persons learn via oral or written testimony

2. There are only about a dozen religious texts that have widely promulgated that claim divine inspiration/true inerrancy

3. Can we narrow down the attributes of what God must be like? I think we may...

4. Do you have a candidate who is more worthy to be Savior that Jesus of Bethlehem? Why?

Thanks.
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
I've never heard Donald Trump claim all are morally/lovingly inferior to Jesus Christ. I'd be shocked if he had.

What I am trying to establish is:

1. It would be logical for God to send a holy text(s) since all persons learn via oral or written testimony

2. There are only about a dozen religious texts that have widely promulgated that claim divine inspiration/true inerrancy

3. Can we narrow down the attributes of what God must be like? I think we may...

4. Do you have a candidate who is more worthy to be Savior that Jesus of Bethlehem? Why?

Thanks.
You keep on asking if there are other perfect people, but have not provided your argument for Jesus' perfection.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
You keep on asking if there are other perfect people, but have not provided your argument for Jesus' perfection.

I need to provide an argument for Jesus's moral perfection? I thought you were conversant with the scriptures, and a practicing Christian. You did not know Jesus (is supposed to be) divine, sinless, born not of Adam's line but interceding, fulfilling prophecies that He was to become a tremendous servant, healer, reconciler, preacher and exhibit the greatest love on the cross?
 

Orontes

Master of the Horse
Not guilt? Why do NT writers talk about guilt, and why Tanakh talks about guilt, guilt offerings and blood-guilt?



We’ve talked about this before in detail—but Romans 7 opens, “…I am writing to those who know the Law.” Paul was writing to Jews and to Gentiles in Romans, but the Jews had a Tanakh mindset and only somewhat of a classical mindset from post-exilic interaction with the Gentiles.



Of course it matters. One who endures to the end of the tribulation period will see the Return of Christ, but millions of people have been saved, then died, who will never enter the tribulation period and so cannot endure any part of it. Are they not saved because they didn’t endure the tribulation?



Do you know the verses proclaiming all believers as priests? This would not limit the priestly class to LDS members only.



That is true IF it is in the Bible, which are the earliest Christian texts. It is not.



Yes, but I am not the only begotten Son of God.



Yes, I am a joint heir with the I AM Christ was God in eternity past. Deification cannot be a reward since the I AM always WAS. I cannot go back in time and be God when I was already a mere man.



…Sure does make sense, except for problems you repeat:

  1. Commentators are correct except for where they disagree with you.


  2. Your hermeneutics are not sound, quoting fragments of a verse here or there to “support” your point
If you want to bridge the gap in my understanding, stick to scripture.



So how do you become God without God making you perfect? Are you saying you make yourself perfect to become God instead? Or—the only logical alternative—you become an imperfect god someday?



Science agrees with me that no matter or energy may be destroyed or created. So please tell me via either logic or science how the matter got here—because the Bible says it was made at some point before in linear time. Thanks.



But the Bible tells us that the true children of God were not born of fornication (including the Father with Mary).



It would be poor, and I apologize if I’ve offended you. But you’ve reiterated that Mormons believe what every other Christian sect, ever, has called heresy.

Master Billiards,


-You are confused. You attempted to make a linguistic point. You stated: "the meaning of the Greek word for sin, imperfection is sin". This is fundamentally wrong. There is no connection between the Koine Greek for sin and perfection or imperfection. I explained this. I also noted that the koine Greek for sin doesn't even include any notion of guilt. NT writers talk about guilt as do writers of the Tanakh because they are Christians and Jews whose theology includes guilt as part and parcel of the repentance process. Greek civilization developed independent of the Levant. The same goes for its language. Therefore, when Christians or Jews write in Greek to convey their religious ideas, they are doing so with a language that is not perfectly suited for that purpose. Since you didn't understand this point I will illustrate it with another example. Japanese is another civilization and language that developed separate from Christian or Jewish influence. If one buys a Japanese translation of the Bible. The Japanese word for sin is "tsumi". This word (like in the case of koine Greek) does not include a sense of guilt. The pictographic roots of the ideogram that make the word tsumi indicate one caught in a net, indicating being trapped. This is the closest Japanese comes to conveying the idea of sin within the language. It is not the same as the Hebrew. Do you understand?


-Per Romans: we did discuss this before. The conclusions you were drawing and seem to still hold to indicate you do not understand the text, even at a basic level. Even in your most recent post, you failed to correctly identify Paul's audience. He is writing to Romans: gentiles who have been swayed by Jewish Thought. (why Romans would have the least bit of interest in Jewish Thought is a separate point, but I can explain it if you wish). Paul is not writing to Jews. The entire body of the text is a quintessential demonstration of Classical Greek rhetoric, none of which would make any sense for a Jewish audience.


-per Matt 24:13: your post is an example of bad theology leading to bad conclusions and missing the obvious. Here is the text:


But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.​

Point one: the statement is a categorical. This means it is a universal assertion. It applies to everyone. There are no qualifiers or stipulations on applicability.

Point two: the statement's predicate 'endure' indicates effort, by definition. The following prepositional phrase indicates for how long and the consequence: being saved.


This one verse alone is a contradiction to the idea of being saved is a one off affair where the subject is then divorced from any accountability.


-Per priesthood: there is no verse that says all believers are thereby priests.


- Per deification: it is in the Bible. I gave you three simple examples. Here they are again:

“For He has given them power to become the sons of God.” John 1:12

"And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together" Romans 8:17

"Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust." 2 peter 1:4​


You claim loyalty to the Bible but when it comes down to it, you are more loyal to your ideology than the text. Christianity has embraced theosis from the beginning. It exists in both the canon and the writings of the same peoples who compiled the New Testament. Your hostility to it is from a devotion to a view rooted in the 16th Century.


-Per God making one perfect: we covered this before in the God in Mormonism thread. How is it you forget so soon? If one claims perfection includes a moral component (which you do as you see it as a qualify of God), then one cannot be made perfect any more than one can be made good. Both require free will and cannot be either coerced or created. Perfection would require a willing participation and sanctification with the Divine.


-Per ex nihilo: your statement suggests you didn't understand my post. It also indicates again, a loyalty to an ideology rather than the Bible. The Bible does not say matter was created ex nihilo. Further, the base notion of ex nihilo is irrational. It is a violation of the basics of logic. Also note: the big bang is not an ex nihilo posture. Clear already explained this, the Big Bang is a view on how the universe expanded, not that there was nothing and then something.


Per Greek myth: I do not understand your reply. I simply corrected an assertion you made about Greek myth that was wrong. You have a pattern of making statements about subject matter you do not actually understand. This doesn't serve you well.
 
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