Nothing to do with Islam?

[FearGod]

Some respondents to my thread "My thoughts on Muslim men and feminism" have insisted that the violence, oppression, and misogyny that occur so frequently in Islamic nations has nothing to do with Islam. Perhaps those of you who sincerely believe that these atrocities have nothing to do with Islam would benefit from watching a brief video from Mr. Pat Condell, who addresses this very issue.

The quran is dangerous and should be banned in the west, also those who follow the religion
of Islam should be banned from entering the western countries and those who born there should
be exiled to the north pole, problem solved and the world will be a peaceful place to live in

.

 

[icehorse]

I wager that this Forum sees fewer than five threads this year that can reasonably be said to debate Islam in terms of what can be done to reform it. All the other threads will focus on what's wrong with it -- even if they begin positive -- and they'll die after a few posts.

In my experience, it's hard enough just to come to the agreement that there is something wrong with Islam. We certainly can't discuss reform if we haven't established its issues, correct? I mean if it ain't broken, why fix it?.. or so the argument goes.

 

[Sunstone]

In my experience, it's hard enough just to come to the agreement that there is something wrong with Islam. We certainly can't discuss reform if we haven't established its issues, correct? I mean if it ain't broken, why fix it?.. or so the argument goes.

If you're waiting for universal or near universal agreement before you discuss solutions to the problems you will certainly fulfill my prophecy that you'll still be discussing the problems ten years from now. You can start a discussion of the solutions as soon as you find even one other person who shares your view what are the problems -- if you want to.

 

[Rational Agnostic]

Tbh honest he really is though. His penchant for being sarcastically dismissive of any viewpoint on Islam except the most extreme is part of the problem. In his world there is no Islam but the worst Islam so Islam must be destroyed.

This is the same guy who has called Islam the enemy of mankind, religion of war, that women who cover their faces (and the entire country of SA) are mentally ill and that they're governed by "primitive pigs whose only achievement in life is to be born with a penis in one hand and a Qu'ran in the other."
This is not how you have productive conversations. This is just how you trowel hate.

Your first paragraph misrepresents him. I have watched numerous videos and he has never said that he thinks Islam should be destroyed. In fact, he has stated that he has Muslim friends and that it is possible to be a Muslim and a good person. As far as the quote that Saudi Arabia is governed by "primitive pigs whose only achievement in life is to be born with a penis in one hand and a Qur'an in the other" is concerned, well, can't say I disagree there. What is your evidence that this is *not* the case? When I look at Saudi Arabia and its leaders, I see men who oppress women terribly, and they deserve every bit of criticism that he gives them (frankly it's appalling to me that we are "allies" with such a terribly oppressive nation).

 

[ADigitalArtist]

I wager that this Forum sees fewer than five threads this year that can reasonably be said to debate Islam in terms of what can be done to reform it. All the other threads will focus on what's wrong with it -- even if they begin positive -- and they'll die after a few posts.

Imo this is central to the argument of this comedian and people who argue like him. They're coming from a place of desire to eliminate, not reform. From bashing which they call 'fair minded criticism.' And from prejudice they call 'necessary generalization.'

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

What's so funny? Alleged Saudi role in September 11 attacks - Wikipedia

What, you think the Saudis are actually our friends?

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Your first paragraph misrepresents him. I have watched numerous videos and he has never said that he thinks Islam should be destroyed. In fact, he has stated that he has Muslim friends and that it is possible to be a Muslim and a good person. As far as the quote that Saudi Arabia is governed by "primitive pigs whose only achievement in life is to be born with a penis in one hand and a Qur'an in the other" is concerned, well, can't say I disagree there. What is your evidence that this is *not* the case? When I look at Saudi Arabia and its leaders, I see men who oppress women terribly, and they deserve every bit of criticism that he gives them (frankly it's appalling to me that we are "allies" with such a terribly oppressive nation).

Yes, he has said it's possible to be a Muslim and a good person despite being Muslim. His view is that liberal Islam is not "real Islam" and "real Islam" needs to be destroyed. It's, once again, the same sort of argument you see get thrown around towards Christians who are not homophobic or science-denying. 'Oh well then you're not REALLY reading the bible.' It's a conclusion born from exclusion of those who already have perfectly liberal minded views of Islam, to assert that Islam and the Quran are just one thing, one interpretation.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

It'd also be nice, not to label every one that criticizes Islam as having a phobia, would be helpful too.

It'd be nice not to label everyone who criticizes Judaism as an anti-Semite. I think that's rather self-evident, but that there's definitely a type of argument that trends far from criticism right onto prejudice.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

That said, about half of the world's Muslims want to be ruled by Theocracy, which is in direct conflict with secularism

I've already explained numerous times that extrapolating that from your polls is disingenuous at best, BS at worse. I won't do it again.
Sharia law means different things to different Muslims and the polls didn't come anywhere near to capturing the nuance.

 

[YmirGF]

I've already explained numerous times that extrapolating that from your polls is disingenuous at best, BS at worse. I won't do it again.
Sharia law means different things to different Muslims and the polls didn't come anywhere near to capturing the nuance.

And therein lies the single largest problem with Islam is that it is very much a "whatever you like" religion that has no true structure as seen in virtually all other religions. Heck, about all Muslims agree on are the 5 pillars of Islam and some don't even agree with them. That pesky reality makes it hard to tackle the religion itself.

 

[icehorse]

I've already explained numerous times that extrapolating that from your polls is disingenuous at best, BS at worse. I won't do it again.
Sharia law means different things to different Muslims and the polls didn't come anywhere near to capturing the nuance.

Yes, all of which is addressed quite un-monolithically in this link which I've offered many times. I agree that we've butted heads before on this issue, so what. I still think you're wrong, and I don't see that you've really refuted this poll in any credible way. It strikes me that the thoroughness, details, geographic diversity and size of this poll all address your concerns:

The World’s Muslims: Religion, Politics and Society

 

[LuisDantas]

The quran is dangerous and should be banned in the west, also those who follow the religion
of Islam should be banned from entering the western countries and those who born there should
be exiled to the north pole, problem solved and the world will be a peaceful place to live in

.

Posting such things, you know, is anything but helpful for anyone.

 

[LuisDantas]

I can easily see the value in a well-informed and fair-minded critique of Islam. Such a critique could be invaluable to reasonable Muslims themselves. But how often do we get that?

Not very often, mainly because those are not well received, or even well acknowledged, by very many people.

View about Islaam are all over the place, and generally go out of their way to spare the doctrine from any meaningful criticism out of cavalier acknowledgement of the challenges in delimiting it. Even honest attempts of criticism are often far too generous, almost to the point of delusion.

There are several reasons why that is so. Chief among them IMO are:

• Islaam actually seeing innovation ("Bid'ah") as a deviation from the proper path of obedience of God's Will - which makes it nearly impossible to attempt meaningful reformation without being perceived from the get go as an heretic or worse.
• The doctrine itself, which is simply too busy with overdosed theism for anyone's good, as well as too dogmatic and too friendly to mistrust of outsiders. It is also very explicitly dogmatic, particularly towards the scripture - which is never a good thing for any doctrine.
• Human nature, which is far more friendly of extending good will to the unknown as people tend to acknowledge when discussing Islaam.

I myself am not sure about that question because I've only recently begun tuning into the debate threads on Islam. Yet what little I've so far seen leaves me pessimistic. Just yesterday I learned from a poster who is perhaps smarter than me, "All Muslim men are misogynists". If that's how someone even smarter than me -- let alone a doorknocker -- starts a well-informed and fair-minded critique of Islam, then I'm the world's best lover.

Apparently, this will come as news to some folks, but there is a difference between over and over and over again wholly condemning something, and a well-informed and fair-minded critique of a thing. Sure, the first looks like more fun for some of us. But apart from the joys of recreational outrage, what good does it do?

Just don't tell me it's a start towards finding solutions to the problems facing Islam today. I wasn't born in 2017. You can BS me some, but you can't BS me that much. Ten years from now the folks who are over and over and over again whining about Islam will still be whining about Islam, and they will yet to have even one sustained, positive discussion on something that can be done to fix it.

There is precious little that can be done to even attempt to fix Islaam without at least risking dissolving it into, if not non-existence, at least irrelevance.

That is no one's fault except Islaam's own.

If I'm any judge, the only major change in those ten years is they will become more and more clueless and bitter about how no one acknowledges their "important insights".

I wager that this Forum sees fewer than five threads this year that can reasonably be said to debate Islam in terms of what can be done to reform it. All the other threads will focus on what's wrong with it -- even if they begin positive -- and they'll die after a few posts.

Go ahead and prove me wrong.

You are not wrong. If anything, you are not yet quite aware of how big a challenge it is to discuss meaningful reform of Islaam.

@LuisDantas did such a search of Islam and posted it somewhere on RF. I found his narrative to be quite interesting.

You probably mean either this thread, which no one forgave me for.

Playing Islam's advocate

Or else the one in my sig, which sort of lost its meaning since I learned better about Islaam.

My views about Islam and why it is so difficult to attain constructive dialogue about them

Both of them are somewhat outdated. I learned better since and it has not helped my opinion of Islaam in becoming any more generous.

 

[LuisDantas]

In my experience, it's hard enough just to come to the agreement that there is something wrong with Islam. We certainly can't discuss reform if we haven't established its issues, correct? I mean if it ain't broken, why fix it?.. or so the argument goes.

And, without exageration, at the very moment that one says outright that there are issues with Islaam one is branded an Islamophobic, if not a hate spreader outright.

There isn't really a lot of room for a sincere Muslim to choose not to do so. The doctrine, after all, is necessarily presumed complete and perfect by such a person.

 

[FearGod]

Posting such things, you know, is anything but helpful for anyone.

How posting such things is helpful?, how nonsense is helpful?

 

[LuisDantas]

How posting such things is helpful?, how nonsense is helpful?

If you have a point, go ahead and present it.

 

[Sunstone]

And therein lies the single largest problem with Islam is that it is very much a "whatever you like" religion that has no true structure as seen in virtually all other religions.

You know more about Islam than I do, Paul, but it's my impression that all the major religions are open to multiple, often quite different, interpretations of their teachings, not just Islam. Isn't that one reason they're major religions? They appeal to so many different people.

 

[Spiderman]

The guy in the YouTube was amusing to me

I'm going to giggle hysterically while Western Civilization dies!

Why not?

 

[LuisDantas]

You know more about Islam than I do, Paul, but it's my impression that all the major religions are open to multiple, often quite different, interpretations of their teachings, not just Islam. Isn't that one reason they're major religions? They appeal to so many different people.

Common mistake, Phil. But very much a mistake still. This point is one of the few regarding Islaam where I diverge decisively from Paul.

Islaam has no central authority - but not for lack of trying, and certainly not for lack of affinity for the idea. And we all, including Muslims above all, are very much better off for that, regardless of how much Paul seems to disagree. It would certainly be nifty to have Islaam be accountable to its own doctrine and goals, but not at the expense of having it submit to an ambitious central authority even more than it does already. We all have had plenty enough Caliphs, prophesized Imans, and Mahdis-to-be as it is.

Islaam does not benefit (because a benefit it would have been) from allowing for a wide variety of interpretations. The Qur'an is not very suitable to that much needed exercise.

Quite on the contrary, it is pitifully limited on its possibilities for interpretation. The sole reason why it is not widely recognized for the mishappen, caricatural doctrine that it has ever been and will more than likely ever be is because most Muslims are indeed reasonable people and very easily transcend at least some of the self-imposed limitations of Islaam proper, even instinctively.

So much so, in fact, that it falls way short from actually being a religion as I personally understand the term. It is just too busy being the proclamation of the presumed Word of God.

 

[FearGod]

If you have a point, go ahead and present it.

About one- fourth of the world's population are Muslims and they read the quran
There're thousands of Muslims living in your country Brazil, tell us how many
atheists in Brazil were killed by Muslims?